Persona's that never saw full potential.
 

Anyone got any thoughts on a wrestler's persona that came along too late?

How big would Bradshaw have been if he would have had the "JBL" persona during the attitude era? JBL May not be the best wrestler in the world, but he is gold on the microphone. His promos being more edgy during the attitude era would have made for great rivalries with Stone Cold or The Rock, and he would have been an awesome addition to Vince's Corporation stable.

What about Edge as the Rated "R" Superstar persona during the attitude era? Would have been 10 times bigger than it got in 2006 to now.

Anyone else got some examples?

Waylon Mercy

Kerwin White...during the attitude era

You're mistaken Mackem, he wouldn't have been as big as Bastion Booger.

Off the top of my head

-John Cena
-Randy Orton
-Kurt Angle
-Chris Jericho
-Rob Van Dam
-D'Lo Brown
-Sean O'Haire
-Daniel Puder
-Mordecai
-Jonah (Tough Enough Contestant....by far the most 'over' guy on the show that year)

I know that the next guy I'll mention will raise a few eyebrows, but....Triple H!

Triple H, in 2002, received one of the loudest and sustained standing ovations in the history of the WWE. The guy was WAY over and could have been huge. However, for various reasons, his face push was severely screwed up.

Austin should have stayed heel after Survivor Series 2001. A face Triple H should have gone over a heel Austin at Mania 18.

This thread belongs to Kane. The guy is marketed from the start as Undertaker 2, given an interesting look and a shit ton of back story...but then evolves to "jobber to the stars" whenever he gets near a major program. Then he gets repackaged, gets over with that, but becomes the jobber to the stars again. And so it has been for 12 years, and he's left with only one day as WWF Champion to his name.

Goldberg. If WCW had Goldberg doing as he was doing, 5 years earlier, wrestling history would likely look alot different.

Obviously, he was still successful as one can be, but without the NWO there to fuck his legacy, and then with vince buying WCW, and making him pretty falliable. I think he could have been the most memorable wrestling face of the entire 90's.

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You're dealing with a massive catch 22 there. Without the nWo for Goldberg to dragon-slay, he may never have become what he did.

Not that I don't lament the fact that Kane hasn't spent more time at the very top... but that's still one day more than Ted DiBiase, Jake Roberts, or Rodney the Piper ever got...

And it's really sad that Mr Fertig didn't have the ability to pull that one off.

I agree, but chalk up one more to the Kerwin White hardon.

I agree with you, they could have made a ton of money with Kane, particularly right when he took the mask off and he was tomb stoning Linda McMahon on the entrance stage, and when he had a match to wrestle, he had to be let out of an ambulance and walked to the ring by cops with his arms and legs shackled. The black towel on his head was an awesome touch too.

I started to go downhill for him in my view around Survivor Series 2003 when they billed Shane McMahon as a viable and believable opponent for him. When Shane superkicked Kane on Raw and Kane "fell into a dumpster" full of fire, and then he appeared on Raw the next week with just a bandage on his arm..... I had to walk outside and breathe for a minute, it was so ridiculous.

Just when I thought they were redeeming themselves from the recent Katie Vick storyline, they went and screwed it up.

I got one, and I think EVERYONE can agree with me on this one.....

Taz.

The way he was used in the original ECW, and then brought to WWE feuding with Crash Holly and others in the "Hardcore Division", and having him wrestle in pants, then feuding with 2 announcers, utterly ridiculous.

Taz could have been one of the biggest stars in WWE if he would have been used the way he was in the original ECW, it was still the attitude era when he debuted against Angle, his ECW persona would have been a perfect fit.

Rep for this. Kerwin was fucking AWESOME!

Ryder would have gotten over very well in the Attitude era.

Definitely Sean O'Haire. I'm a huge fan of his WCW stuff, and when those promos started airing I was fucking pumped as anything.

Taz was at the end of his career when he came to the WWF. So I doubt a major push would have worked, especially with the likes of Austin and HHH around.

Kane would rather put people over, so that is why he's where he's at. I do agree that he deserves more.

More people:
Raven in WCW
Chavo Guerrero

I'm a Brian Pillman mark so take this for however you will...

But if Brian Pillman didn't have a messed up ankle and didn't die in '97 he probably would have been a huge heel in the WWE.

I could imagine after The Screwjob he would have screwed up DX promos with just being the loose cannon. And after that I could see the Corporation hiring him to rid themselves of DX or Steve Austin, but it being a situation where he eventually became a thorn in the side of the corporation as well.

Big agreement with the mentions of O'Haire, Chavo, and Taz.

I agree with this and the same can be said for DDP. He was one of the top guys in WCW but when he came to WWE in 2001 he was the stalker/jobber

Great point about Kane. I completely forgot to mention him.

I think Big Show is another guy. I remember when he first debut'd in 1999, the guy was an absolute monster. He threw Austin through the cage, gave Foley major internal injuries (kayfabe wise), and destroyed Test on two separate occasions in less than 10 seconds. Show almost rolled a car on to Hardcore Holly, and also managed to chokeslam the Undertaker through the ring.

I was really annoyed in 1999 when they paired Big Show up with Taker....and basically made Show look like Taker's bitch. In my opinion, Big Show never really recovered from that. To make things worse, they made Big Show look even more vulnerable in the Fall that year when they put him in that program with Bossman...where Bossman literally made Big Show ride the casket, etc.

Don't forget Taz got a bicep injury when it looked like he was about to get a big push Taz should have gotten another shot. And i def agree with people like dibiase who were in the wrong era.....He should have been a multi time world champ butt hey had this crazy idea to leave belts on for a year at a time..NEVER would happen now.

Yes, Taz is another.

I never quite understood as to why Taz was made to job so many times (in an embarrassing fashion) in 2001 during the Invasion angle. I seem to recall Taz jobbing numerous times to different wrestlers in less than 20 seconds or so. What a massive FU from the WWE.

I agree, kind of.

He just needed heel's to slay. Not necisarily the NWO. I think he would have worked with any roster. The point is, WCW politics ultimately damaged that 2-3 years of hard work and brilliant slow build and his legacy never recovered.

But the NWO did envolve a group of leaders and a large army, which was the perfect setting for that kind of renegade one man army approach.

Rhyno was a really big missed opportunity. He was so over in 2001, but when he returned from his neck injury, he just never did much. Then you also have Matt Hardy and Christian in 2005, both who could have been MASSIVE stars for the WWE, had they listened to the fans.

Tazz is a good one, as is Sean O'Haire. I also think the WWE missed the boat with Shelton Benjamin after he got drafted to RAW.

This should have been huge. Very huge.

The Conman

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Even though he left on his own, Brock Lesnar would perhaps be one of the biggest stars in history. He would be ranking on the lines of Hogan/Austin/Rock/Goldberg type of hot if he would have stayed.

Frustrating as the WWE's constant/no break road schedule is what drove guys like him away. Goldberg too.

The problem with Brock Lesnar is that the WWE gave him too much way too quickly. Although hindsight is 20/20, I think it was a mistake to have Lesnar win KOTR 2002, Royal Rumble 2003, and then the title at Wrestlemania 19. You can't give a man so much so soon, and expect him to fully appreciate it.

Personally - here's what I would have done with Lesnar

-Have him win KOTR 2002 (as the WWE did)
-Let him go cleanly over The Rock at Summerslam (as the WWE did)
-KEEP HIM HEEL. One mistake the WWE made I believe, is that they turned Lesnar face way too fast...due to the fact that he was receiving some decent cheers. The WWE has to realize that ALL great heels get decent cheers at times due to the awesomeness of the character.
-Keep him undefeated, and have him win the Royal Rumble.
-Have Kurt Angle go over Lesnar at Wrestlemania....handing Lesnar his first loss.

This would have achieved two things:

1) Angle would have gone over big time with the fans, and probably would have become a gargantuous face.
2) Lesnar himself would have become an enormous face. At this point in time, the fans would have been creaming their pants at the idea of cheering for Lesnar. Lesnar would have received a huge pop had he F5's Heyman after the match (Heyman would have slapped him for losing or something).

Speaking of premature face turns, the WWE made the exact same mistake with Randy Orton two years later at Summerslam.

<font color=goldenrod>Although it was upsetting to see DDP debut in WWF with hype but then get bumped way down the card, Lance Storm addressed this one in one of his most recent Q&As. DDP's back was so fucked up he couldn't afford to take the amount of bumps necessary to feed a comeback, something all big heels must do. Mind you, DDP was in his mid-40s in 2001 so that didn't help matters.</font>

The WWE thought it was better to job Christian out to Cena instead of putting the belt on him.

Why would you have a then 25 year old Lesnar with the world of potential and hugely over with the fans book him to go undefeated into the last match in front of 54,097 people at the biggest show of the year and lose to a guy nearly 10 years older than he is and at the time was going into neck surgery following the event and would be out for a few months? Especially since before that he wins KOTR, Royal Rumble, and crushes Hogan and Rock in clean victories, then goes to 'Mania and loses to Angle? Doesn't seem right.

You couldn't keep Brock heel at that time. People were just cheering him too much which is why they turned him face. Hence why they did that with Austin and Rock.

I don't know if I am the only one that doesn't see the sense in that, but I think that would be a horrible thing to do with Brock.

I don't think Zach Gowen would have had much of a leg to stand on if he had been around during the Attitude Era.

Same with the Texas Tornado. :shifty:

We haven't seen the full potential of him yet in the WWE, but i would've LOVED to see CM Punk in the attitude era. I mean, this guy could've been HUGE against the likes of Austin, Rock, Foley, DX, etc. I'll take either his uncensored gimmick that we see in underground videos or his "straight edge" style that would've had the fans boo'ing the shit out of him from '99-'02. GOD DAMN

Why was there any problem with Lesnar's booking? The man was a great athlete, he had Paul Heyman to speak for him, and he went over the right people. He was massively over. He didn't leave because he didn't appreciate what he was given. He left because he wanted to pursue another line of work.

1) As I said before, Angle would have gone over big time. Angle may have been 35 years old or so at the time, but he still had tons of great matches left in him (as he demonstrated, even after the neck surgery). Angle going over Lesnar would have been an excellent, and realistic, 'David vs. Goliath' storybook ending.

2) By NOT having Lesnar win at Mania, you would keep him motivated to achieve that goal for the future. By giving someone too much too quickly, you can make them unmotivated....or simply put, make them not fully respect what has been given to them. An argument can be made that both of these things happened to Lesnar.


Now just imagine. How over would a guy be if they were to be THE guy that finally ended Lesnar's winning streak?.....a guy that had destroyed both Hogan and The Rock nonetheless?! If anyone was deserving of a monster push, it was Kurt Angle.

A large part of what made Austin and The Rock so huge as faces, was the fact that the WWE kept them as heels for an extended period of time...despite the cheers. The heelish characters of both Austin and The Rock allowed them to showcase their personalities more...which in effect, made the fans appreciate the character that much more.

It's basically psychology. You sometimes want something that you can't have. During The Rock's corporate days, the more that the fans wanted to cheer for The Rock....and the more that they couldn't due to his heeldom, the more that they literally CRAVED to cheer the guy once he made that face turn.

I believe that in Brock Lesnar and Randy Orton's case, the same thing would have happened...but the WWE pulled the trigger too quickly.



I'll have to respectfully disagree. Having a large winning streak, winning KOTR, and defeating Rock and Hogan, would have been far from a terrible thing in the grand scheme of things. I would have booked Lesnar to win the title at Wrestlemania at Wrestlemania 20 (assuming that he would have been interested in sticking around).

Didn't read all that but yes Val Venis SHOULD have been WHC at least once.

Lesnar was given way too much too quickly, and he was inappropriately turned face far too prematurely (a month or so after Summerslam 2002).

I also feel that a major reason for Lesnar wanting to pursue another line of work, was because of the fact that he had basically achieved everything that there was to achieve. There was literally nothing left for his character to achieve.

Hang on. Assumed wrong there. Who's 'Mogadishu'?

Somalian war lord?

You should ask the Hogans, HHHs, Flairs, and so on about achieving everything in the business. The guy didn't have the passion and wanted to try to make more money elsewhere.

Sean Morley could have and should have been far greater in the WWE.

He is yet another guy that I forgot to mention.

Yeah. The Rock certainly wouldn't hav...nevermind.

All of the guys you mentioned paid their dues in the industry before attaining their greatness.

Once these guys finally achieved "everything", they had already demonstrated a huge passion for the business, etc.

What I am saying is this: Perhaps if Lesnar wasn't given everything so much so soon, then perhaps he would have been more passionate about the industry....and about establishing a true legacy like the guys you mentioned.

Yeah he had all the skills necessary to do it. But he was another one that got lost in the shuffle.

When Lesnar left he was a top guy meaning he was making top money. He didn't have to fight anybody for a spot on the card. That is a spot that most guys bust their balls for their entire careers. The business is a work. It's not really about winning this title or that title or being the first guy to do this. It's about being the top guy and staying that way. And that was Lesnar. And he gave that up because he just wasn't interested in the job anymore. The money wasn't worth the time on the road and the toll on his body. He wanted to go do something else. All of these things.

Ok, lets clear this up about Brock.

The guy paid dues by spending years in OVW (WWE's developmental). He was a guy who got over huge with the fans and was very capable in the ring to justify having a main event spot. He never got anything too quick at all. Its called smart business. If you are getting the biggest pop of anyone on the show, Vince is going to put you at the top, period. Thats why you have guys like Cena, and Batista who both had World Titles around their waist yet were incompitent in the ring, but it didn't matter. Then take Brock who knew what to do and when to do it from the time he made his debut and could have a great match with any of the top guys at that time. Ask yourself this, did he have a bad match with The Rock at SummerSlam for the WWE Title just 5 months after his debut? No. It was an awesome match and the crowd exploded for him when he won.

No one can deny that he could perform well in the ring, was over with the fans, and was a believable champion.

Its not that Brock didn't have passion for professional wrestling, he had tons. He just didn't like being on the road 5 and 6 days a week, 52 weeks a year. If the schedule was lighter and he could have time to himself, he would still be in WWE today. But he couldn't see an end in sight with the constant, heavy travel all over the world, so thats why he left.

And on the subject of people getting too much too quick, no one mentions a thing about Kurt Angle and him getting the WWE Title less than a year after his debut. I thought Angle deserved it when he got it and is an awesome wrestler. But when he got the belt for the first time, The Rock, Stone Cold, Triple H, Undrtaker, and others were there in full force on the card. When Brock got it for the first time, Rock left for 6 months, and Austin had quit 2 months earlier, but people bitch about Brock getting the fame too quick. Its a pisser. Brock is the man.

I'm glad this clears things up.

I can't say I disagree with the way the WWE booked Brock Lesnar. The man came, he did his thing, did it well, and then left. I don't think passion was a problem, but it was rather his other ambitions. That he did achieve young may have effected his decisions -- who knows? But if Lesnar didn't reach the top when he did, then he wouldn't have been Lesnar. He would have just, arugably, been another guy.

Randy Orton's face turn in 2004 was handled horribly, but I don't know if the decision to turn Orton face itself was bad. A fucking Toronto crowd was cheering his World Heavyweight Title win over Chris fucking Benoit. The WWE has something special on their hands then. The WWE just didn't handle it well.

Instead of Orton looking like a bad-ass, or someone with a personality the crowd could get behind, he was essentially stripped of his dignity, and everything the fans loved about him. He was dropped by Evolution and he looked like a punk-ass kid that was way in over his head. I am still not sure which of these I would have preferred, but here are two of my favourite "better ways of booking Orton in 2004" ideas:

1) Randy Orton gets turned on by Evolution, and then the next week he actually does hand the World Heavyweight Title back to Triple H. Orton basically falls into line, and concedes that he is not the present, but the future, and his time has not yet arrived.

Chris Benoit takes issue to this, and tells Orton how much the World Heavyweight Title means, and how Orton handing it over spits in the face of all those that have gone before him. Benoit could talk about how Triple H could not beat Benoit, but Orton could. Cue Orton literally spitting in Benoit's face, and then the two continuing their program with a series of matches designed to get Orton over as a great wrestler and a guy that is truly ready to be World Heavyweight Champion (for more than 8 days).

Essentially, this does lead up to Orton turning on Evolution after winning the 2005 Royal Rumble, and using his title shot like Batista did, and defeating Triple H at WrestleMania 21 to become a two-time World Heavyweight Champion. You'd even perhaps give hints that Ric Flair was pulling for Orton, because he agrees deep down with what Benoit was saying.

2) Orton does not actually make the face turn; but Triple H does. Evolution turns on Triple H when Ric Flair and Randy Orton decide that Orton is no longer the "future," but the "present." This makes Triple H obsolete to the group, so they exile him. Cue Trips getting a sledgehammer and meaning business. This would invert the Orton/Triple H dynamic to The Game being the one who won the 2005 Royal Rumble, and then challenging Orton.

This one essentially makes the "star" of the program Triple H, though. However, Orton would solidify himself as the new heel of the WWE.

A couple I can think of:

* Mordecai
* Kenzo Suzuki (yeah he had a WWE Tag Team Championship run with René Duprée, but so what? That's nowhere near what his full potential was.)
* Muhammad Hassan (Yes, I honestly believe Mark Copani's character could have flourished in the WWE by now, had the Muslim community in Dearborn not spoken out so strongly, as to force UPN to remove him from television.)

Hakushi

Gesundheit.

Think Matt Striker would have been better suited in the Attitude Era and yes would have gotten more heat than the Genius or Dean Douglas would have in their day.

DDP in the WWE/ Bret Hart in WCW

Luther Reigns was another guy that I thought was doing pretty well with his heeldom before leaving the company. He had a nice look to him (no homo).

Jon Heidenreich and his "disaster pieces" were also starting to grow on me. Heidenreich was great comic relief...atleast for me.

I wonder if Ken Shamrock and Al Snow should receive nominations as well?

Owen Hart (RIP) was another guy that came to mind....and was definitely main-event level.

Mogadishu, you just reminded me, when you mentioned Heidenreich, I personally also feel that Snitsky, who was sort of like him, and in fact had an onstage encounter with him at a pay-per-view event, never really reached his full potential. I mean at best he was a guy who was constantly winning in stale rivalries on ECW, when they could have taken what I think would have been, at the very least, a somewhat intriguing chance, and had Snitsky vs. Heidenreich on the undercard of what I believe, at the time would have been WM 21 or 22. I know there had been much talk and debate over it but by the time whichever of those Mania's it was, Heidenreich had already left WWE.

I fully believe if Heidenreich had raped Michael Cole on every episode of Smackdown! he would be world champion right now

Mordecai was mentioned earlier, and I'd agree. The character was sound, and Kevin Fertig could play it really well. I could have seen him being a tremendous foil for The Undertaker, which would have no doubt had got him over as sort of a "new age Kane," at the very least, if done right.

The WWE hit a wall with him when they showed him brawling with Hardcore Holly. It completely ruined the mystique of the character, and from that moment on, he was just a dude wearing white. Mystery would have gone a long way to his credibility.

This also sort of damaged Sean O'Haire's "devil's advocate" character. That and being paired with Roddy Piper. I get what the WWE were trying to do, in giving O'Haire the rub with Piper -- but O'Haire would have truly been better off on his own -- or feuding with guys Piper threw at him. I cannot remember for sure, but I seem to remember O'Haire's in-ring booking just not matching the "cool" vibe the character had going. I think he should have been more dominant. There was something almost "inhuman" behind the character that I think should have been played up on more.

This reminds me of how in the middle of his catchphrases he would say "Shut your mouths this ain't sing along with The Rock!" and the fans' reaction would instantly 180. Good stuff.