If Nash and Hall stayed in WWF do you think the Monday Night Wars would have happened and how do you think things would have been different.

The WWF actually was experiencing an upturn in business at the time of Nash's departure with the 4 way feud between Taker, Diesel, HBK and Bret. Nash definitely had that "Austin Anti-Hero" feel. The Monday Night Wars were already happening in late 95, but I think this changes things greatly. I don't think WCW gets hot like they did.

Nash was doing his best work as anti hero Diesel

Garvin and Valentine came up with that Garvin as a ref angle. Pretty under-rated feud between the two.

Dick Woherle is my favourite old time referee from the 80's. Dude was jacked lol. A big showboat.

Google image search his name and look how many pictures of the real guy there are in comparison to how many are of the action figure they made of him. Unreal.

If you wanted to save WCW at which point would you have stepped in?

Starrcade 1997. They had their most profitable year in 98, but the wheels were in motion by late 97.

I met him at the wrestling HOF. He had the strongest handshake I've ever felt and he was 81 at the time lol

Told some awesome stories, too.

Is your hand made of canvas?

Which leads me to this question that I pose to Gertner and anyone else who wants to chime in: Which match is more overrated? Steamboat-Savage or the WM X HBK - Razor ladder match?

I love both matches but don’t think either belongs in the GOAT discussion.

And I know the iron man match between Bret and Shawn is gonna come up when discussing overrated WM matches but that’s not what I’m asking about. So leave it alone, Goddammit.

HBK-Razor ladder match is way overrated. Particularly considering (IMO) that Bret versus Owen was the much better match of the two.

Thank you. I have not had nearly enough vindication on my belief that that match gets too much credit. And that’s coming from the world’s biggest HBK mark.

Bret vs Owen was better but I do wonder sometimes if that match gets a bit overrated in hindsight too simply because Owen won clean which was such an odd finish for that era of WWF. How far down does it fall if Bret just gets the win and it blends in with every other clean finish of the time?

The first time I saw Razor/HBK I remember thinking "Wait... that's it...? That's what all the fuss was about?"

The Savage/Steamboat match didn't exactly make me want to grab my nuts and scream "Yeah!" either.

So probably Savage/Steamboat because it just seems odd that a pretty standard match gets such love. I suppose it was arguably the first undeniably good Wrestlemania match though. Not some gimmick or celeb affair, just two great athletes going at it. That was 50% of most cards I saw growing up though. Going back to late 1998-2002 there was a wealth of high tempo match ups. Heat got really stupidly good by virtue of the lighter guys having no other showcase.

When I watched WCW at that time I remember thinking the only disappointing matches were main events. Early WCW main events were way more entertaining than WWE though. Looking back now it couldn't be more obvious that the match quality was so much higher.

Well, the finish itself was perfectly executed and was completely 100% the right move - which served to make an already great match all that much better. You can't really fault a match for being booked well. If Bret won, I'm sure people would say it was a great match but the finish itself takes it up a notch to a classic.

So, you're right but not in a way that downgrades the match.

Right. I’m just saying that finishes are held to a higher standard in hindsight than actual match quality. It’s not wrong. There’s a FUCKTON of matches that people rate super high that I’m sure is strictly because of a finish that I just was not invested in. (WrestleMania 20 and 30, mainly... and every match from the “women’s revolution because we say it all is” era.)

Do we overrate the significance of finishes though? Flair and Steamboat have both said their best match against each other was at a house show. The finish didn’t mean dick. If we saw it, it would probably just be a little novelty addition to our list of best matches. Are THEY wrong in their labeling of “best match” or are we?

I ask this here because it’s the wrestling-nerdiest question I’ve ever posed and this thread is dedicated to Gertner who is the nerdiest wrestling nerd I’ve ever known. So if not now, then when?

and as Gertner's handsomer and more virile lacky, I felt compelled to answer.

I always try and review matches putting myself in that time frame.

Steamboat vs Savage was so much better than anything the company was doing at that point. You look at that match compared to other nationally televised WWF matches from that era and that match is in another galaxy . I actually prefer their Maple Leaf Gardens match from Feb. 87. It's tremendous.


I can't say the same for HBK vs Razor.

i also think Savage vs Steamboat holds up as a great match, but I prefer the older style of working. Only thing that ruins it for me is George Steele.

I can’t say anything bad about George Steele. Fucking loved that man for everything he was to 80s WWE.

Lol when you start watching all the House Shows from the era George's shtick gets a bit old after a while. They ran that feud with Savage into the ground. I think they fought on 3 Saturday Nights Main Events in a row.

i like his chickenwing finisher but fuck he bores me.

He’s pure 80s camp and I love it.

Compared to nowadays where they’d wrestle in various tag/singles matches on Raw every single week though...

That feud was more over than anything in the WWE today

such a waste of Savage :'(

Bret / Owen is so insanely good. Just timeless. I watched it a couple weeks ago and was glued.


HBK/Razor is fun, exciting, and was so innovative at the time. The problem is that the Ladder concept has been pushed so far to the limit since then, it's not as impressive anymore.

to me, Bret and Owen is better than most ladder matches other than maybe Jericho vs Michaels.

Razor vs Shawn was still immensely good just as a wrestling match, but it's way overrated.

Gertner, what is the best surprise pin?

I'm talking small package, backslide, schoolboy, sunset flip or that sort of thing.

I read that the guy who invented the Irish Whip used it as a finish. Can you tell me anything more about that and also do you think wrestling could survive without it?

Always been a fan of the small package

Yup, Danno O'Mahoney invented the move in the late 30's. I'm guessing since there's no footage that he was doing the move by whipping his opponent into the turnbuckle.
There were wrestlers back in the day like Johnny Valentine that refused to do the move because it exposed the business.

I imagined into the turnbuckle too. I had no idea guys thought it was too obviously b.s though, that's great. I suppose almost every match would have been a mat wrestling affair until the Whip turned up.

I prefer schoolboys

Victory roll FTW, though I guess that's a SUPER surprise maneuvre

Best Doomsday Device counter on the market

I loved the old finisher where a guy would go for a body slam/power slam and the guy would hook his opponents head and turn it into a small package. It's the go to roll up in mid 80s WWF.

I love the suplex from the apron reversal pin.