Let's talk about Shawn Michaels and a bit about Bret Hart(non-screwjob related) NOID POST
 

Let me preface this with, this is not Bret vs. Shawn. They are both awesome and incomparable as far as quality as performers.

This is about the influence they had on one another as far as being in ring performers.

Shawn Michaels upon his return to the E in 2002 was almost untouched as far as being an all around performer... he was actually breathtaking in the way he was able to captivate people. He had questionable programs mostly to do with Vince, Shane and DX as well as a dragged out feud with HHH but I'd say those were greatly over shadowed by his epic performances against the Angle's, Jericho's and Undertakers of the world, as well as phenomenal performances in his more drawn out stuff such as against Vince and HHH in many matches.

He had the ability to make everyone care about what he was doing. He achieved legend status so smoothly it's almost like it was no big thing.

Go back to the 90's and think about his character then. The male stripper gimmick, the "clique", Vince Mcmahon having homo sexual fantasies over him on commentary. While constantly delivering amazing matches and being a great performer, something was missing. His connection with the fans was not believable. Chicks and kids loved him, but he simply was not an everyman. He was tacky, and over the top. He lacked attitude and everything about him was over the top. It was too over dramatic. He was being forced down people's throats as a demi-god and it was like "WE GET IT, YOU'RE A BIG DEAL".

When he turned heel in DX, it seemed he was being truer to whom he really was and was sensational.

Right before that turn though, we had Bret Hart vs Stone Cold as the hottest feud in the company and Shawn was sort of left in the dust. It was because he wasn't real, his character was contrived. He eclipsed Bret as the top heel when he turned after costing Taker the championship, because he was so damned believable, it just made sense, he was an arrogant shithead, but he was awesome. It seemed Shawn was able to channel the realness of Bret and Steve, and run with it and do it as well as they did, until he got injured.

Fast forward to '02 and beyond and Michaels was pretty much Steamboat levels of face. He seemed so much more likable and believable.

This is where I think Bret Hart comes into play. Bret was known for taking his relationship with the fans seriously, and cherishing their support as a babyface. He was completely believable, a "good Canadian kid" who fought hard for the fans. I feel like Shawn Michaels initially lacked the appreciation for the fans and took for granted their support when he was a face and therefore started getting booed. When he returned, he dedicated himself to legitimately having appreciation for his fans and tweeking his character as such. His understanding of the audience catapulted because he seemed to value their support as opposed to just expecting it. It would have been WRONG for him to ever be a heel. I feel like he was influenced a lot by Bret, as they were both around the same size and knew how much extra it took to be believable and be as over as he was as a face. Shawn took nothing for granted during his second run.

Sorry about the length of this haha.

Bret Hart: 5 moves of doom, over-rated as a draw, no charisma

HBK: the complete opposity.

Are you seriously Canadian?

I wouldn't say Bret had no charisma, because when he became heel in 1997 (and for a little bit in WCW) he was pretty good. He just never depended on it to get over, he was more comfortable with letting his in-ring work do the "talking". He was also very uptight about his character, so it probably made him more uptight altogether.

Keith, you don't have to respond seriously to Gertner. You're right, though.

I always appreciate a Gertner visit, he's my boardwalk empire homey.

Also Keith, you are quite correct. Bret was also very over in WCW esp by the time he got the world title.

Oh also, how awesome would it have been if Shawn Michaels ended up in WCW in '98.

sans broken back lol.

Yes. The (for a little bit in WCW) was referring to him being pretty good and over in WCW for a little bit, not him being heel "for a little bit". Should've explained myself better, sorry.

Shawn Michaels v. Kwee Wee would have been awesome circa 2000.

hahahahaha. I'm assuming if he was there, he woulda joined the nwo and feuded with ddp. Him and Bret wouldn't have worked together or looked the other in the eye though. Imagine if they got booked together in wcw in 1998, omfg wcw would still be in business today if booked properly.

I wasn't a fan then, but I don't know how WCW dropped the ball so bad in late 1997/early 1998. How fucking hard was it to put Sting over Hogan cleanly and decisively and bring in Bret Hart as possibly the best wrestler in the world who was screwed in the "other company?" The WWE were gaining steam with Austin's rise and all that, but WCW should have really continued killing.

I'd still love to see Shawn Michaels involved in WWE programming. Gertner will surely hate this, but the idea of Daniel Bryan being accompanied by Shawn Michaels against Tyson Kidd being accompanied by Bret Hart gets me a little wet.

Simply put, WCW got boring and watered down. That's what happened. They lost their edge after the nWo thing had gone on for too long. Hogan just didn't think it made sense for him to put over Sting clean. You know how he always was the best at protecting his character. There's even a sliver of truth to his claim though. Sting hadn't wrestled an actual match in over a year, so how could be expected to go one on one against Hogan? The only thing he had done was some ring clearing at the end of shows and really worked on his character. The commentary during the match even alluded to Sting's ring rust which probably means they wanted to set it up that way. However, Hogan broke one of his own rules to not go against the fans when you know what they obviously want.

WCW would have misbooked HBK the same as they did Hart. He might have had one good feud, but I doubt he would have been used properly. The roster was already a little bloated. Now I'm as big a WCW fan as anyone here, but even I have to submit to reality.

The money was in Sting absolutely slaughtering Hogan and becoming WCW World Heavyweight Champion. That's it. Anything else was fucking dumb.

Bret Hart was the greatest canadian rassler of all time. That makes him the 50th best rassler of all time. Just below both Nasty Boys.

Triple H vs Shawn Michaels is the greatest rivalry of the post-Attitude era. Please tell me a bad match they had.

The Montreal match isn't that good.

They didn't have a bad match, but I remember a lot of people thinking that some of their stuff went on a bit much. I didn't really watch RAW at the time; SmackDown! was far more interesting under Heyman's book.

They feuded from August 2002 - December 2002. After Armageddon, HBK/Jericho kicked off through Mania while Triple H was forced to work with Steiner, Booker T. HHH/Nash started after Mania and HBK was around, but he was feuding with Flair and Orton. Elimination Chamber at SSlam 03 feat. HHH and HBK, but the focus was Goldberg/HHH that dominated the fall. HHH/HBK didn't pick up again until Royal Rumble 04 and ran through Bad Blood 04, but of course Chris Benoit was featured heavily in the feud from Feb-April.

James you know well enough there's no point in arguing with you about HHH because you take it far too personally . All I know is he hogged too much tv time in that period I say that because I myself AND many others was like "MEH" and got bored whenever he was on t.v. They did however have great matches, but the feud was forced down our throats. And let's not get into how crap the new DX was.

It was pretty fucking over, so only a handful of people were "MEHing".

The problem was it was focused on two extremely established guys not in need of the feud to get themselves over. Surely they could have worked with other guys and got THEM over. Neither guy needed that feud to last as long as it did.

Michaels feud with Jericho on the other hand served a FAR greater purpose and I think resonates more and really helped develop Michaels' character.

I wouldn't say Triple H hogged too much air time back then. Rock was leaving to go Hollywood, Stone Cold was retiring. So WWE needed a veteran guy to step up to the plate and hold things down, and Triple H was the guy. Actually, that was when he was hitting his peak, he was the #1 heel in the business for quite some time. He had been working towards being the top guy for a while, and it was his time.

Triple H being the top heel did what it was supposed to do, and proof that he wasn't into hogging the spotlight is that once he reunited with HBK as DX in 2006, he never again was the top guy. He was content with being face, doing the DX thing, main eventing once in a while, and that was it.

Always welcome new opinions on the matter.

I respect HHH as a performer, but my biggest problem with him is he's always been so damned protected. I don't give a fuck about him slamming the bosses daughter, that is what it is. I think he's a hell of a talented performer but he could have created a lot more stars than he did. (Note: not saying he never jobbed and never gave anyone the rub), he just had a way of haulting progress of guys like RVD, Booker T and Shelton Benjamin. Not all his fault, but a booking fault with his character. He also totally slaughtered Randy Orton who was on his way to the top and really hindered his career for a bit.

At the end of the day he did help make Batista, tapped to the crossface at mania (lolz after being in it for about an hour) and jobbed to Cena. I personally think it was too little too late, but he did do his part at certain times.

There's no doubt Triple H protected himself "characterwise" and in every other way. I mean, I still think he decided to become friends with the Kliq (in particular with Shwan) with the idea of helping himself, of learning what he needed to learn and I'm sure he knew the Kliq had a direct open line of communication with Vince McMahon so of course, he was going to take advantage of all that to help himself. I actually think that's where his good relationship with Vince began, not once he began going out with Steph, but back when he was hanging out with Shawn. And he just did what he needed to do to get to where he wanted to get.

But when it came time for him to back it up in the ring, he also did that. So I respect that.

RVD didn't deserve a title run in 2002 because he was openly bashing the company and his drug use. He proved what a useless sack of shit he was after WWE gave him the push of a lifetime in 2006.

Booker T. is one I will concede.

Shelton Benjamin was athletic as hell, and if anything, Triple H gave him the rub along with Shawn Michaels but Benjamin just didn't have the charisma/mic skills to take advantage of the oppurtunities.

Randy Orton was the drizzling shits as a face and was exposed as how not ready he was for the World Title/main event push in 2004.

that was after being slaughtered by HHH, his character had some serious harm done to it and he lost his edge, that feud was a killer. If he went over in a long feud and was able to learn even more from HHH and really get the rub, he wouldn't have been the "drizzling shits" in '04. He had to repair the damage and it was hard.

Drug use or not, RVD was over and entertaining and coulda used the belt. Had to create new stars, RVD connected with the audience.

Personally I liked the Screwjob. It was the most interesting on WWE TV at that point.

It was captivating television. that is for sure. Was that catalyst to the Vince McMahon character that drew so much against Austin.

It also helped put Shawn over even more as heel. Shawn was def. the biggest heel in wrestling until 1999.

I agree with Gorgeous Dale here. Like him, I'm not slamming Triple H based on his talent or saying that he never did anything for anybody, but when it comes to RVD, Booker T and Randy Orton, I entirely agree. Now, I'm not saying that RVD was deserving of being champion at that point, but it was a different WWE then, and people were hungry for it. Triple H's NyQuil reign smacked down so many potential top babyfaces from Booker T to Kane to Goldberg and I believe, although I can't be sure, that SmackDown! may have even caught RAW in the ratings at that time.

Triple H is still one of the greatest ever and has poured far more into the business than so many other guys that have used it and moved on; but I will not reverse my opinion that as a heel when the brand split started, Triple H was just plain old boring. And I do remember a lot of people being bored -- it wasn't just me and a few others on the IWC.

That there is why I think Triple H was given the World Heavyweight Title for so long. The WWE had lost Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock, and that really hurt them, so there was this desire to keep the World Title on Triple H, because he was the safe bet. He married into the entire company and he wasn't going anywhere. It's part of the reason why I think Jeff Jarrett dominated TNA in the early days, too.

Brock Lesnar leaving the WWE in 2004 didn't help matters any, either. I think from that moment on there's been a bit of paranoia in pushing new stars to the top so quickly. Alberto Del Rio and Sheamus seemed to slide past that to some degree, but they didn't put the World Heavyweight Title on Del Rio when they should have, and Sheamus did suffer from a bit of a lull period after winning the King of the Ring, of all things.

you must of been sleepin in the 90's. they are easily 10 people who were better heels then hbk.

Booker T and RVD should a been World Champions but thanks to Triple H it never happened, because he was egoistical son of a bitch and he still is.

Shawn didn't need the screwjob. After the heel turn on taker he was already red hot.

Uh, list please.

Hogan was the biggest heel in wrestling during that era. It's not even close, and I love HBK.

Says something that nobody can bring up Bret Hart without Shawn Michaels name tagged to it.

Bret was defined by HBK, not true the other way round.

Not sure wat point I'm trying to make here but def HBK > Bret.

Different kind of Heat.