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The John Cena Dilemma

This seemed to get some attention in the Raw thread, and I think it probably merits it's own thread. During the Owens/Cena segment these sort of comments popped up:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAMN iNATOR (Post 4641567)

Cena interruption imminent I bet. :roll:

Quote:

Originally Posted by owenbrown (Post 4641564)

too bad this promo won't mean anything in 2 weeks when LOLCENAWINS happens and Kevin Owens is reduced to a comedy jobber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark One (Post 4641597)

100% serious here: What would it take you guys to actually just enjoy a Cena segment or angle?

This is an incredible angle and segment. John Cena is bringing fire on the microphone without devolving into poop jokes. He cuts deep and attacks Kevin Owens' integrity, sure, but he's angry about losing and he went after valid points. He got the crowd into it.

Last night, he lost to Kevin Owens. He had an incredible match that made Owens look like one of the biggest stars in the entire company. In his first match. He got laid out by Kevin Owens multiple times.

If Cena had done what Kevin Owens did, there'd be an infinite flood of posts talking about him burying someone. He was on the receiving end, but still, it's "OMG Cena is going to interrupt."

Of course he's going to interrupt. They're fucking feuding. Kevin Owens just ran him down.

I'm legitimately curious as to what you would like to happen and what you would expect to happen, because this seems like pretty much everything everyone who can't stand Cena has been asking for over the past forever, and now it's not good enough.

Not to pick on DAMN iNATOR and owenbrown, since I'm seeing a lot of this all over the place, but they're the ones I quoted in the thread at the time. This current Owens/Cena angle seems like everything that people have ever wanted, but now it's not good enough. Cena has been putting on great matches for months and giving midcarders an opportunity to shine.

The Rusev debacle is fresh in people's mind, sure, but Rusev never beat Cena clean or even close to it, let alone in his first match in WWE. CM Punk never beat Cena clean. The Rock, Brock Lesnar, and Daniel Bryan are probably the only people recently to do so, and their careers worked out pretty okay.

So, let's talk about it. What would it take for you to stop complaining about Cena? What's missing? What do you actually want?

lol It's mostly just owenbrown with the silly Cena hate lately. And Owens beating Cena 100 times in a row won't stop him from ignoring those and commenting "Ugh. Here we go. LOLCENAWINS like always" before the 101st match. It's his gimmick or something.

Death, Taxes and Lol Cena wins

Made into a wrestling shirt with Taker, IRS and Cena winning

Cena is miles away from the WWE Heavyweight title and putting over KO, equipped with a fresh storyline of a dad wanting to kick his son's favorite wrestler's ass. Also, someone is calling Cena out for his aura so we're getting somewhere in that aspect.

KO is Doomsday(Dadbodsday) and Cena is Superman, his death is imminent.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...rman_04cfb.jpg

I'm not on the whole "Cena's gonna ruin Owens" bandwagon that you're talking about but I am a little worried. Rusev and Wyatt both floundered into nothing after Cena beat them. Sure Owens beat Cena clean but he's also an unestablished heel.

Bryan was fine because a) he was the most over face in the company at the time, and b) he won that feud. Punk was fine because he also came out on top during their initial feud. Rock and Lesnar were fine because they were already mega stars before their respective feuds.

That said I'm gonna be hopeful that they don't screw this up.

Moderate wall of text inbound, wrapped in spoiler tags to avoid being an eyesore:

SPOILER: show

The biggest thing I want to see from Cena is some change over time in his character. I'm not saying turn heel, but just...be affected by things that are happening around him. Like, back at Mania 28, during the build-up to his first match with the Rock, he would go on and on about how this match meant everything in the world to him, how he didn't know how he was going to go on if he lost, how he was basically ready to die if it meant beating the Rock....and then when he lost, the next night he went "Oh well, there's always next time."When Brock Lesnar shit-stomped him at Summerslam, he was gone for like a week before he came back, single-handedly wiped out the Wyatt Family so hard they broke up off-camera, and was throwing himself at Lesnar again like nothing happened. Both of those scenarios should have shaken him to his core-- John Cena's the invincible superhero, and then someone comes along and absolutely trucks him. As annoying as his inconsistent selling is in the ring, it's nothing compared to how little he sells the plot.

Again, I don't necessarily need Heel Cena in order to be interested in the guy. I just want to see him evolve and adapt over time. Daniel Bryan, for instance, went from soft-spoken indie guy who Michael Cole hated for no reason, to a deluded dork whose MitB cash-in filled him with false confidence, to half of a dysfunctional tag team who bickered like an old married couple, to populist anti-authoritarian revolutionary, to beloved folk hero. Randy Orton's been a snotty upstart brat, a cold-blooded psychopath, a loose-cannon antihero, a spoiled corporate golden boy, and about a half-dozen other things which make his character trajectory far more interesting to track than Cena's, and I don't even like Randy. Everyone around Cena has changed and grown and risen and fallen, some for the better and some for the worse, but Cena's always just been John Cena, stuck forever in 2005.

They have a perfect opportunity to make me care about the guy again in this Kevin Owens situation. Cena's pushing 40, and he's slipping down the card in favor of the Shield guys. He's suddenly facing all these guys from NXT who are already giving him a run for his money, and they're barely getting started in their careers. Sami Zayn nearly took him out in what Cena thought was going to just be a fun exhibition match. Adrian Neville had him dead to rights before Rusev ran in. And Kevin Owens just wrecked his shit. A year or so ago Cena cut a promo where he said something along the lines of "The future has to come through me," and now it's doing just that. The unbeatable superhero isn't as unbeatable as he used to be, and Cena doesn't know how to deal with that.

This would be the perfect opportunity to start showing some vulnerability and doubt in a guy who's been bulletproof for ages, ditch the goofy shtick and start throwing those stank-nasty lariats like he was in his match with Owens. Maybe as he grows more and more desperate to stay relevant, he starts making decisions he's not proud of, like falling in with the Authority (or Paul Heyman) to give him an advantage against the Roman Reigns' and Kevin Owens' of the world. Give the guy an arc where he actually goes through some peaks and valleys, show us what good Hustle Loyalty and Respect are when the guy across the ring from you is just going to German suplex you until you die. How does it affect him when he starts to doubt himself, when all the cancer kids are counting on him? Give me something, anything, to make me care what happens to this guy, as long as it's not another "heel cuts a worked-shoot promo where they try to bring out his 'dark side'" angle because that never works.

Will they do it? Probably not. But they could do it, and that's what I'm hoping happens. Anything that doesn't involve Cena AA'ing Kevin Owens off of an ambulance roof at Summerslam is all I'm hoping for, really.

Rusev didn't flounder into nothing, for pete's sake.... he still looked strong and was still treated as a big deal. Now he is injured, though. Would have been just fine if he wasn't, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heisenberg (Post 4641920)

That's probably not the analogy you wanna go for, since Superman fought Doomsday a shitload of times after that first encounter and beat him pretty much every time after that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man (Post 4641943)

That's probably not the analogy you wanna go for, since Superman fought Doomsday a shitload of times after that first encounter and beat him pretty much every time after that.

Honestly I'd say this comparison is more accurate to Cena vs Lesnar. Owens is more like Luthor with his power suit since he might be able to beat Superman but it'll take pretty much everything he has to do so... and there's a heavy possibility he'll loose next time anyway. #ComicNerdsInAWrestlingForum

Cena is way better than most people realize. I don't understand the naysayers at this point either

I had no intention of watching any of Elimination Chamber and tuned in for a few matches... the Cena/Owens match kept my attention the entire time. And the US Open (tee hee) Challenge has been great. Cena isn't even close to the title scene right now and putting guys in meaningful feuds. It's great.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man (Post 4641943)

That's probably not the analogy you wanna go for, since Superman fought Doomsday a shitload of times after that first encounter and beat him pretty much every time after that.

true, but I didn't throw in the outcome of Cena's demise in the forms of EradiCena, Steelcena, Cyborg Supercena and Cenaboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark One (Post 4641911)

So, let's talk about it. What would it take for you to stop complaining about Cena? What's missing? What do you actually want?

I would like Cena to actually lose a feud.

Why? Did Austin ever lose any feuds? Where's all the Austin hate?

Austins run was about 2 years, Cenas run has been about 13.

So let's punish the company's flagship wrestler because he has tremendous durability and longevity. Cool

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy Gunn (Post 4641994)

My biggest problem is feuds being run into the ground at consecutive PPVs.

Rusev got the cheap win over Cena at Fastlane, okay fair enough, and then Cena get's his big 'legacy' victory at Wrestlemania. Fine so far, but here is where we descend into Cena FUCK FINISH territory with gimmick matches. We get the 3rd act where Cena beats Rusev to end the feud in that shitty russian chain match. It's 2-1, but 5 minutes after the match, they announce a 4th match for Payback. Why the fuck for? Rusev loses to Cena THREE TIMES in a row. Why bother with that 4th match?

Now Owens gets a great win on PPV over Cena. I was hoping they'd leave it at that and move on, maybe do a rematch at Summerslam, but fucking halfway through the PPV they have already announced a rematch for 2 weeks time.

So, we are approaching a cycle where if Cena eats a loss on PPV, he get's his win back, 2 or maybe 3 times over. That's overkill, man.

This is the most reasoned post in the thread.

Its either STOP HATING CENA or CENAS A PIECE OF SHIT.

This is perfectly fair. This isnt Cenas "fault" but no one is blaming him for being the booker. But yea, how can you consider it "making stars" or not "burying" a guy when he is just losing over an over in a short period.

Even Hogan never beat a heel 3 Pay Per Views in a row.

Cena should get his win, and move on. YAY HE OVERCOMES THE ODDS! FACES ARE GOOD! YAY CENA. No one minds that. But when they stretch these feuds across 4-5 pay per views, and Cena comes out on top it just de-elevates his foil. Same thing with Wyatt.

Peoples point with Owens is fair too. Yeah, Owens went over. The next night Cena shows up with the "you aint done nothing Jack" and we get a rematch in two weeks. Way too quick. So either Owens wins again, which wont happen, or Cena gets his win back in two weeks and they will either forget it and move on or do the same match 3 more times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Vic (Post 4642009)

I would like Cena to actually lose a feud.

Pretty sure he "lost" his feud with Lesnar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by road doggy dogg (Post 4642019)

So let's punish the company's flagship wrestler because he has tremendous durability and longevity. Cool

A good story has peaks and valleys not just one giant ass plateau.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MatthewAllenHanso (Post 4642026)

Pretty sure he "lost" his feud with Lesnar.

And Daniel Bryan, albeit that was short. Arguably with Punk. Most definitely with Orton/Authority. Sure, his team may have won at Survivor Series but he didn't, and he never got his belts back.

It didn't happen for a really long stretch, sure, but it's happening a lot more in the past few years. It's a problem, like you and Tommy Gunn said, when he's winning feuds by beating somebody 6 times in a month and a half.

I have a feeling Cena might lose against Owens at MITB (God willing), or win by DQ (meh).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark One (Post 4642029)

I wouldn't say he had a feud with bryan, just a match. I would also say Punk and Cena had a few feuds and each won a few them.

One thing Tommy gunn brings up that is even a bigger issue is the RUSH to rematch. They are making the next match the same night, or next night.

Heaven forbid they take Rusev off TV for a week or two and then have him come back and attack Cena. Or have some kind of Angle to further the story.

Instead the Story is

Rusev hates America - Fights Cena - Wins - Rematch - Lose - Rematch - Lose - Rematch - Lose.

There no stories, its just "IN 4 WEEKS THEY ARE GOING HEAD TO HEAD AGAIN".

For anyone trying to defend Cena with Stone Cold, go back to 1998-1999.

Never was pushed over "Credible" heels for months on end.

Once again, not Cenas fault, but poor booking. And not entertaining. And thats why people are tired and bored of cena.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heisenberg (Post 4642008)

true, but I didn't throw in the outcome of Cena's demise in the forms of EradiCena, Steelcena, Cyborg Supercena and Cenaboy

Cena gets beat at MiTB and the next night out comes Darren Young dressed like cena in his rapper days

Quote:

Originally Posted by road doggy dogg (Post 4642010)

Why? Did Austin ever lose any feuds? Where's all the Austin hate?

:wave:

I fucking hate Austin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lock Jaw (Post 4641942)

Rusev didn't flounder into nothing, for pete's sake.... he still looked strong and was still treated as a big deal. Now he is injured, though. Would have been just fine if he wasn't, though.

He went from RIDING A TANK AT WRESTLEMANIA to being Cuckolded by Dolph Ziggler.

Quote:

Originally Posted by road doggy dogg (Post 4642010)

Why? Did Austin ever lose any feuds? Where's all the Austin hate?

Austin lost to Triple H in their 2000 feud, lost to the Rock in their Mania XIX feud, and never got his 'big win' over Bret Hart in the feud that got him over in the first place so he kinda lost that one, too. He also lost single matches with far greater regularity. So, yeah.

My only problem with Cena is he makes ZERO sense.

Half of his promo last night was awesome. The idea that KO secretly follows the same mantra of Cena (never give up) was a nice idea. Basically Kevin Owens IS John Cena, except KO has had 15 years of bitterness and clawing, where Cena has been supported by a giant company. That is awesome.

What I HATED was Cena going on about how KO needs to man up and the implication that he isn't a man for some reason? WTF? KO won Sunday cleanly, but somehow "isn't a man" because he doesn't like the fact that Cena is so over-supported that KO's own son idolizes him over his dad... Cena lost, he doesn't really get to insult KO's masculinity.

Because he is acting like a kid via being childish.

hes being a heel.

When you havea chickenshit heel you can call him a coward. its part of the schtick.

When you have a cocky heel you can call him disrespectful and overconfident.

You can have selfish heels, scary heels, bad ass heels.

Cena comes at every heel with "I DONT TAKE YOU SERIOUS YOU HAVE BITCH TITS" until he loses then its "IM A MAN AND ILL WHOOP YO ASS YOU PANSY YOU MIGHT HAVE WON BUT PEOPLE WONT RESPECT YOU".

Samething with every heel. Dude has one speed. And he does the same shit hes getting on Owens for.

"Never Give Up" is unforgivable and I can't back it. It is unorginal, it is pandering, and it is infuriating to think that WWE thinks it is a legitimate way to market. John Cena uses cancer patients as a way to try to get over and it is ridiculously unfair and somewhat underhanded on WWE's part. I'm not talking about doing the actual Make A Wish work, but bringing it up in promos as a way to get cheers is somewhat scummy. So if I don't cheer for Cena, I hate cancer patients? It's absurd.

As a guy, I really like him. As a character, I have to hate him. WWE will never take risks with him, it's always the same message just said in a different way, they drained out everything that got him over in the first place, and there is no real point to him winning matches anymore. I like him as a person but I absolutely cannot support the character in anyway until they make necessary changes.

Kinda off topic (and I am not saying this is evidence to anything):

Remember the Cena/Dolph feud around the time AJ joined dolph?

SPOILER: show

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcissus (Post 4642160)

Cena's charitable work is actually one of the few cases where I don't feel the WWE is egregiously pandering or exploiting something. I think he genuinely cares about the work he does, and I don't really have an issue with any of it. Which is rare for me, 'cause I usually can't stand that sort of thing.

John Cena is fantastic right now and anyone who disagrees with me can make like a tree and get outta here.

This is exactly what people have been clamoring for him to do for years. Take a seat back from the main event and work with the young up and comers and help establish the future.

Love John Cena right now. Hated how he went over Rusev 4 times in a row but that is not his fault. Hate how people still chant "Cena Sucks" when he in fact rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by road doggy dogg (Post 4642176)

Bringing it up in promos in what I have a problem with. I think it's fantastic that he does the work. Using it in promos seems like desperation for positive attention. Not a fan.

My biggest issue has been more about his stale booking and whenever his promos end up on the preachy or rambling type. Stale booking in the sense that the WWE keeps recycling the same main storyline or reasons and his preachy/rambling promos tend to make little sense or fit better if he was a bad guy.

He doesn't need to suddenly lose or flip flop a lot in momentum like almost the whole roster but he does need a lot more change after all these years with the same stale character.

To his credit, he has been doing some amazing stuff with the Open Challenge and usually is at his best whenever he's motivated either because of his opponent or wants to prove something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man (Post 4642073)

While Austin was on top, he definitely did not lose singles matches with more regularity than Cena has over the past 10 years. It's not even close.

On top of that, the top face SHOULD win a lot. People seem to like to complain that there isn't enough parity at the top of the card. Parity isn't a good thing. It leads to situations like we have now where everyone's treated and equal and no one gets over because everyone's expected to lose constantly.