Should Bret have lost @ Survivor Series?
 

Just curious as to ppl's thoughts.

I thought that he should have jobbed to be honest

It's nothing personal, it's Vince doing what was good for the company. The WWF title really would of lost a lot of respect if Bradshaw wins it, I mean if Bret wouldn't of lost. Bret didn't want to lose, so, ego check from hell.
Vince 3:16.

<font color=cyan>But I don't recall HBK wanting to leave the company when he had the title. Bret wanted to leave without losing the title. That would have been a serious blow to the company when WCW could promote "The Man Who Never Lost The WWF Title" on their roster.
I'm not saying what Vince did was right.
I'm saying it was good for the company.</font color>

Bret had Creative Control. He didn't have to job. He just opted not to since Michaels was being a dick as always.

BTW, is there a time that Michaels ever jobbed to Bret? Every match I remember involving them ended with Shawn winning.

That's just proving that HBK was an asshole, this is about Bret. Also, HBK at no point was leaving the company, so it was a completly diffrent situation.

Am I saying I agree with what Vince did? No. I think Bret should have done the job, but I don't think after everything Bret did for him that Vince should have under any circumstance do what he did.

I think they're both at fault.

2 wrongs dont make a right.
Just cos Shawn didnt want to put Bret over, doesnt mean Bret shouldnt put Shawn over either

...

Get your facts straight. I hate having to go through this all the time. Bret never wanted to leave!! He even declined wcw's initial offer a year earlier..for a ton of cash!! He chose loyalty instead. He asked vince what he could do to stay, but vince kept insisting he could not afford him.

Bret wanted to drop it to austin, or taker, and the title would have held just as much meaning as when he had it. HBK was an asshole like loose cannon has stated.

And creative control..bret had that. This means not one of them can do something with which the other does not agree to. It was vince's idea to include this. So it's his damn fault. But the thing is, vince went along with it..he lied to bret saying "ok, we'll have both stables do a run-in during the match." He lied to his face, so he could get out of a deal he inked with bret. That is what pisses everyone off, including the wrestlers like foley and taker etc.
Vince totally was in the wrong, and nothing he did was right.
He comes up with a cop-out, worrying bret would leave with his title and maybe trash it on wcw programming. That's pure BS! Bret grew up in the business...he respected the business. His father would practically disown him for doing a stunt like that. No, sorry, I dont buy that line from vince.

Bret never deserved that ending. And it's a shame I had to witness it live.

Except it really is a moot point when you're given creative control.

When someone tells you to do something, your job gives you the right to say no, you do so, they agree, and you're still forced to do it in the end, that's totally different.

<font color=cyan>
Bret and his creative control... "Oh, I don't want to Job in my home town... Boo-Hoo:'( "
No, it wasn't his home town. It was in Montreal. That's like Hulk Hogan not wanting to drop the title to someone in front of his home town when he's at MSG.
Yeah, HBK forfeited the title many times, but my question is, since I didn't have the internet in '97 and before that, how many times did he really hurt himself? Every consider some of this is legit? Not every bump is real, but how many were fake? I don't mean to sound like a smart ass, but please, give me numbers to prove he ducked out of jobbing the title every time.</font color>

HBK I don't recall HBK ever foreiting due to legit injury.

It's always because he's being a whiny bitch and pissing everyone off. Didn't he even quit (not just foreit, I mean QUIT) over having to job the IC Title, thus leading to that "Razor Ramon isn't the real champ" deal?

Exactly, no legit injuries involved.

And would someone answer my original question? Has Bret EVER beaten Michaels at all?

Survivor Series 92

Basically HBK was HHH-ing it back then.

The technical parts of this (Bret having creative control, etc) have already been established; no need to repeat them. I don't see why Vince and WWE had to rush the dropping of the belt if Bret was gonna willingly do the right thing and drop it the next night on Raw.

This could have just been another Backlund --> Hogan via Iron Sheik, or Austin ---> HHH via Mankind. But they rushed it.

This was just a poor move on WWE's part. I don't believe in any way that Bret was going to go to WCW with a WWE belt. That just goes against everything in his track record.

Shawn Michaels is the biggest asshole in professional wrestling. He faked an injury to get out of losing the title to Bret at Wrestlemania 13 and forfeited the title every oppurtunity he could.

I don't buy any of this new religious crap that he is now. Once an asshole always an asshole

Gotta get that match. :eek: :drool:

Well, saying you've found God doesn't automatically make you a better person. People can change, but Michaels is paying lip service to the concept of God and to change in general.

<font color=cyan>Okay, here are my final thoughts on the Bret Hart Screw Job thingie for the night…

First and foremost I’m not going to defend Vince in any way. Giving anyone creative control is a gamble, and it didn’t pay off. It made Vince look like an asshole, and on a personal note Vince deserved that punch from Bret Hart.
BUT
Bret should have known that he was there to do a job (I swear to God, no pun intended). He didn’t want to lose the title in front of his “home town.” And this thread has a lot of “Well HBK didn’t want to job!” How many champions WANT to lose the title? At that point in time the WWF Heavyweight Title meant that you were the very best in the industry. It was what every single wrestler wanted to do and wanted to be. It was the title that took legends such as Randy Savage, The Warrior, Hulk Hogan, Andre The Giant, “Nature Boy” Buddy Rogers, The Undertaker, and more from mere legends to immortals, and today it’s still doing it with Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, HHH, hopefully Kurt Angle and Eddie in the future… Name one champion in their right mind that would want to lose that status.
See? Now don’t bit</I>ch about how HBK didn’t want to lose the title.
In speaking of HBK not losing the title do to various “injuries” I’ve yet to hear of HBK having creative control yet, so I’m going to assume that Vince didn’t want HBK to lose it fairly, or saw potential for HBK and didn’t want to piss him off… The potential to one day grab the torch, run with it, and help get a group of wrestlers over to start a nation wide craze based on the idea of being anti-authority while telling people to suck it. Don’t blame HBK for not losing the title; he didn’t have creative control.
Vince was an asshole, he did deserve to get knocked out by Bret.
Bret was being too defensive. I’m not going to say, “he wasn’t a team player” because Bret bent over backwards for that company… but I will say his ego got the best of him.
Unless you give me proof I’m going to believe that HBK had nothing to do with the screwjob.
All in all both Bret and Vince were wrong, but Bret should have done the job cleanly, yet Vince messed up when he gave Bret creative control.







<font size=1>and on a side nore SS '92 was a damn good match
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but HBK didn't have to lie to Bret and everyone else when he said that he didn't know anything about the Screwjob

Bret should have jobbed, bt refused. Vince didn't feel as if someone leaving for another company should have a say over what they can do and what they can't. Vince shouldn't have did what he did, but Bret wasn't in the right either.

Bret didn't want to leave the WWF. The only thing he did wrong, IMO, was not breaking his other hand on Shawn's jaw after he was done with Vince.

Shawn Michaels always got out of doing jobs, despite not having creative control. In other words, he purposely avoided doing his job. Let's say you work in an office, and you decide "fuck it, I'm not coming in to work today and I'm not even gonna bother calling in sick." and some how, your boss doesn't fire your ass. In fact, he bends over backwards to accomodate you. Now, your co-worker, Bret, decides to use one of his vacation days to take a day off (which shoulb be perfectly fine), but when he get's back the next day, his boss fires his ass on the spot and has security escort him from the building. Does that sound right to you?

I am not sure about this but to begin with I heard sometime in the past that Bret refused to job to Nash. I think that what Vince did was wrong and he did deserve the punch from Bret. However I think Vince did what he did because he was scared of taking another persons word like he did with Nash, Hall and Luger who all gave Vince verbal committment but then went and signed for WCW. Do I think that Bret would have taken the WWE title to WCW? Probably not but I don't think Vince thought that he could afford to take the chance.

As far as I'm concerned Bret should have done the job to Michaels like Michaels should have done the job to Bret in the past.

To sum up what Vince did was wrong but Bret was the completly innocent party in all of this. If he done his job none of this would have happened.

Since The Hitman would of been leaving for WCW the best thing he could of done was lose. Since they were in Canada it would of been great for him to win and hand over the title the next night but that isnt good.

Even though I am not a fan of what Vince did. I would have to say it was one of the smartest things that he did. Sure the fans hated him for it but look at it this way. Its been all this time already and yet no one has forgotten about. Vince did something that will be remembered for a long time and I think that it put a message out to the superstars that Vince can just screw you over at any minute.

Should Bret have jobbed? Hell yes. It would've made perfect sense.

However, on the whole issue, Vince was completely in the wrong. I don't say he was wrong for forcing Bret to do the job, but he was wrong for pretending he was going to give Bret what he wanted, then going out there and pulling that shit. After over a decade in the company, the least Bret was owed was honesty from his employer.

RAW the next day was in Canada as well.

But if that didn't happen we wouldn't have this great discussion.

Ironically, when the WWE was bitching about Austin leaving, Vince and JR were going on about the fact that Steve said he'd be there after they "supposedly" worked things out, and he bailed anyways.

Well, tough shit, guys. After something like the "Montreal Screwjob," you've set a major precedent of distrust.

Come to think of it, that's a very valid point. I never even took that into consideration when Austin left...

Oh, just read this post...

Frankly, if Michaels coming on WWE Confidential in 2002 and blatantly admitting that he was in on the screwjob isn't enough proof, I don't know what is.