Should the current Home Record have an asterix?
 

Maris's record had a an asterix because he played more games than Ruth. And that playing those extra games helped him break the record.

Bonds and McGwire both played more games than Ruth in breaking the record, but also both were taking drugs (McGwire was on andro - now a banned substance, and Bonds is on most of the medicine cabinet). So my question is should their records be marked in the same way that Maris's record was? Or, should in the same way that in athletics records set by people found guilty of taking drugs then have their records scratched, should the records of McGwire and Bonds be erased from the record books?

I'm not sure about this one.

I think McGwire woulda been capable of breaking the record without juice anyway so it was silly of him to do it in the first place but i dunno about Barry. It's a tough call, look at Bonds over most of his career and he wasn't even a 50 home run hitter then suddenly 73, although the same could be said of Maris.

I think asterix would be a good idea

I'm going to say no...

Simply because Andro was legal when Mac was on it. and Bonds, while we can all assume, he's never been caught... no failed tests... and until the balco trial happens and they come out w/ records of what he bought, he's still on a good home run pace now, and has for years traveled w/ a trainer and worked out hours every day...

It's not like Giambi who dropped 30lbs in the offseason because he "stopped eating taco bell".

Now, if Andro was illegal then, or Bonds tests or they get records that he was taking illegal substance, I don't put an astrix, I strip him of the record.

Also, let's say we stripped both of them... then it would go to Sosa, who was caught with a corked bat...

So we're back to Roger again:love:

Although i think Sammy is the man, he hit 60+ more than anyone, and those opposite field ones he hits...Man

We can say that Bonds has never failed any tests - but then baseball has some of the weakest drug testing policies out there and if I recall, McGwire retired before they introduced testing so he may well have been on more than Andro.

as a footnote check out the builds of a young Sosa and Bonds compared with today.

But remember Sosa wasn't anywhere near Big Mac's pace at first in '98 he went on an absolute blitz in the summer and caught up

But back to the subject of McGwire having an asterix - maybe the asterix should say - mcGwire hit this number of home runs but he was taking Andro a performance enhancing substance which although legal during his record was subsquently made illegal.

Think about this - how many home runs might ruth have hit if he had had the 'nutritional advice' that Bonds has?

That's another good point, Ruth was hitting 500 ft homers after a night on the town. I think you'll find there are plenty of players gone by who would've made a run for atleast 60 if they'd had today's advantages, i'm thinking of Lou Gehrig, Ernie Banks and Willie Ways. Infact look at Mickey Mantle, he hit a 585 footer once if i'm not mistaken, i guess on that evidence and the evidence of the amount of homers he hit, he's another guy who in today's game probably coulda hit 65+

Of course the flip side is that Ruth hit in the era when there was the color bar - so it is like asking what would McGwire's toltal have been if he didn't ever have to face non-white pitchers like Pedro, Rivera (I know that they are both AL pitchers but you get my point).

I think comparitively though, Ruth was off the chart, he was hitting more homers in a year than the rest of the AL put together at one point

But this was in the pre-Tommy John era, the pre-MRI era, where people suffered from 'Tired arms'.

For all the talk of the current hitters being drugged up to the eye-balls, I am sure that most contemporary pitchers are pretty familar with the syringe.

Strange then that top guys back then pitched 300+ innings on a regular basis :-\

Yep but there were also 4 man rotations and shorter careers (with some exceptions). We don't know how fast people were throwing. There is also a lot of mythologisation that goes on about people and players.

Well this is what makes comparing different eras so difficult.

The question would Ruth have fared better or worse in todays game is perhaps another debate.

If you cheat to win, your records should be wiped from the books. Ben Johnson would have had the 100m world record for over 12 years if they didn't wipe it.

Babe Ruth's amount of at-bats in 1927: 540
Barry Bonds' amount of at-bats in 2001: 476

In my mind that stat throws the asterik question out the window. Plus, even though the season was longer in 2001, Barry sat out alot of games, and he only played 2 more than the Babe.

Yep but if Bonds was clean do you think he would have broken the record?

This is the debate. Do the suppliments that Bonds and McGwire took that enabled them to surpass Ruth mean that their accomplishments should be marked, just as Maris's record was. Maris was aided by playing extra games, McGwire was aided by Andro and Bonds was aided by 'Broccoli'.

Look at Bond's HR totals year after year, he never got above 49 then WHAM 73, and not at an age where power constituting an extra 24 HR's is likely to occur. Meh, maube i'm just sceptical. He hasn't gotten anywhere near the last few seasons ofcourse, even on pace

If you ask baseball historians, they claim back to ruth people took stuff that "helped", given it was a scince like today, but neither was weight lifting, and while it can be argued that Bonds may or maynot have been on illegal substance, as stated, he has one of the toughest workouts in the league, known for spending 4-8 hours a day w/ a personal trainer.

Yes, he is bigger then he was as a rookie, and he was a rookie... 10? 15 years ago? 50lbs of muscle in 10years? with the proper workout and diet... very possible.

All being said, if it comes out Bonds was on illegal drugs when he broke the record, I take his name out of the book.

Mac was on a legal substance (legal at the time) I don't give him an astrix...

As for Sosas "tear in the summer" might that speak more to a corked bat being used?

I don't strip a record for speculation, cause there's too many players you can speculate on, or a player taking advatage of things the previous era didn't have... legal suplements, weights, nutrition.

What about pitching records? in the AL you face a DH instead of a pitcher, should NL pitching records get an Astrix?

Prove that Bonds took steroids and then there should be a debate. But for now get off his back about it.

Exactly, How do you REALLY know Bonds took 'roids? I mean there is a chance but its not like he went from being all skinny in the late 80's early 90's to jacked at the present time. I am not a Bonds fan at all but he got progressively bigger as time went on. Its like not he balloned up out of no where. Also Andro isn't even that big of a deal IMO I really don't think its anywhere near anabolic steroids..atleast from what i've heard.

Also check out Big Mac's build his rookie year compared to later on. He broke into the league at 6'5" and 230

Plus considering he hit what, 49 homeruns his rookie year?

Official at bats. COunting walks, Bonds had over 700 and Babe 600. Not really as important as official AB, but having over a hundred more plate appearances when playing two games more than Babe is pretty :eek:ish

The argument that because Andro was legal that it means McGwire shouldn't have an asterix is I think some what flawed because the additional games that Maris played were also legal and that didn't stop his record being asterixed. So what's the difference.

Stima - Andro is what helped to kill Steven Bechler last spring

The asterisk was always a bad idea. It was put there bysomeone (I forget how) because of their biased towards Ruth. Maris should never of had the astericks in the first place. Rules change, games added, that doesn't change the fact that MAris hit 61, one more than Ruth.

Let's look at it though.

Don't know about Mac

Sosa- Could have used corked bats throughout his career and finally got caught.

Bonds- He has never been caught of using anything. But look at Ricky Williams, he was using a masking agent to hide the MJ. You can't tell me there isn't any masking agents for steroids

But then couldn't you accuse every player of "masking agents"?

Sure. I won't say no to that. You don't know who is fake and who is not in sports these days. Excpet for Stevie Y for the Red Wings (15 years without cartliege in his knee)

1) Prove that Bonds is on the riods (I think its a no-brainer, like OJ killing Nicole)

2) If there is an * next to Bonds... there should be one next to Aaron's All Time record for having more at bats than Ruth. With it being that the season expanded during Aaron's time. Having a long career shouldnt be the cause for the *.

I don't think there is any case for one next to Aaron's record just like i don't think there shoulda been one on Maris's record, more games was just a natural expansion in the game and that's that. Using roids on the other hand, well i don't think there should be an asterix there should just be no record:-\

LOL are you serious? :lol:

You cant really compare stats back then, to todays stats. Baseball is different now then it was then. Pitchers consistanly throwing over 100mph, bats are better quality. The game is basically a science now, instead of guys whacking a ball with a stick.

Its like comparing Arnold Palmer to Tiger Woods. Both great golfers, but then people can argue how much better would Palmer have been with the amazing new technology in golf clubs now. Or how much lower Tiger's scores would be playing on some of the older coursesm with less fairway distances.

How much better of a Goalie would Ken Dryden have been if he got to wear those huge pads and baggy jerseys. Would Martin St Louis be as effective with older skates and a flat edge hockey stick.

Players in all sports are getting bigger, stronger, and their equipment is advancing at such rapid rates. Its not really fair to compare todays players to the players of the past. Compare players Like Babe Ruth and Lou Gerig, Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemiuex. But to compare Koybe Bryant to Larry Bird isnt right, as the sport was entirely different during these players prime.

You can really say that about any record in any sport.

I agree with Klepto.

If you're going to put an asterisk, put it for the same thing as Maris', otherwise you might as well add everything else thats not the exact same as 60 years ago:
*Better/more effective equiptment developed since Ruth broke the record
*Coors Field didn't exist in Babe Ruths time
*Major advancements in nutrition and diet
*More money and resources

You can't be that picky, records are records but in reality they don't really mean anything because its not the same thing. Unless every single variable is controlled then there is no way you can be totally equal. Take it for what it is.

Did anyone see last night the clip of Bonds hitting his first HR?

He had the build of a weak hitting infielder.

Alfonso Soriano is a home run hitter and he is as skinny as Ichiro. He could easily put on 20 pounds in a few years, hit ten more home runs and not be on roids. Just about every player puts on quite a bit of bulk as their career goes on. Its also no secret that power comes with age. Its not that rediculous for Bonds to be bigger twenty years after he broke into the league.

Bonds is about twice the size that he was then.

Its not like he went from being 100 pounds to 200 pounds and hitting 20 to 73 in one year, he's been a rather large player for years now and has never lacked power.

I'm more playing devils advocate again here more than anything else, the only season of his that was out of the ordinary was the 73 hr season, but it still stands that you are accusing someone without proof.

Not really his home run totals:

16
25
24
19
33
25
34
46
37
33
42
37
34
49
73
46
45
30

Two significant figures there: first the leap from being a player hitting 20-30HRs to a player hitting 40+ and the leap to 73.

The reason why there is no proof is because baseball has the weakest drugs testing policy this side of cycling. It took a death before andro was banned.

Saying there is no proof - well there is no proof that HHH is on drugs but you can look at him when he first wrestled and now.

Plus he was like 160 when he broke in the league.

It's not like Bonds is hitting 73 every year though. He averaged between 30-40 home runs for 9 years before hitting 73, then went back to hitting between 30-40 home runs for the next couple seasons after. He had an exceptional home-run hitting year. He's never been solely a home run hitter either. It's not like he only hits home runs and nothing else - the man can hit for average as well.

Not as if the pitching the year of 73 was anything special, by the way.