DISCUSSION - Is it best for business for Triple H to head to Smackdown after WM-21?
 

DISCUSSION - Is it best for business for Triple H to head to Smackdown after WM-21?

I honestly can't remember if I've posted this before (I probably have) but oh well. I'll say it again. :).

For the last few threads I've started, I purposely tried to defend Triple H (mainly to piss off The CyNick :p ;)). For this thread however, I'll try and "assume" the following (whether they are actually true or not, is irrelevant for now).


A) Triple H is a mark for this business. Before he retires, he will break Flair's record of being a 16 time World Champion (using his backstage power).

B) It's a given that Triple H will wrestle for a number of years still.....and won't be going to Hollywood anytime soon (atleast on a permanent basis). With that in mind, we will see the SAME trend. Triple H will be champ most of the time, but will do the odd job at certain times (only to get a return victory....and final "say so"....somewhere down the road).



With ALLLLLLLL this in mind, do you think it would be better for Triple H to be traded/sent to Smackdown after WM-21?


I don't know about you guys, but I really think that Edge, Batista, and Orton are ready to ascend to that "next level". With Triple H out of the way (especially if he puts over Batista at Mania'), I think this can be achieved. At the same time, I also feel that guys like John Cena and/or Eddie Guerrero could use a Triple H to have a "high profile" feud with.

Believe it or not - I actually feel that if might be better for a John Cena to feud with Triple H (and get the short end of the stick at times), then to feud with (and defeat) a washed-up Kurt Angle, or a mid-carder out of place in JBL.


It also allows the opportunity for Triple H to squash and bury a new set of opponents. (haha). I don't watch Smackdown that much anyways, and so that might be a good thing. :p



Anyways - here's what I'd consider doing: (just to re-cap).


A) Have Batista defeat Triple H at Wrestlemania to win the World title.

B) Have Triple H demand to be traded the next night on RAW to Smackdown (or have him go with the lottery draft?)

C) Batista, Edge, and Orton (arguably the top 3 wrestlers in terms of potential for future growth and stardom) get elevated on RAW.

D) John Cena and/or Eddie Guerrero get into a high profile feud with the biggest heel in the business....Triple H. Triple H can win the WWE title at 7 different times, but maybe Guerrero and/or Cena can salvage a title reigh or two within that time frame as well. ;)

It will be completely ridiculous if Triple H has any more World Heavyweight Championship title reigns after he drops the title at Wrestle Mania 21. Triple H has to lose the title and he can not win it back ever again, otherwise it kills the point.

In my estimation it should have been Randy Orton to topple Triple H at Wrestle Mania 21. Thus, keeping the Legend Killer gimmick in tact by adding Triple H to the list of legends. But that potential match up has been ruined, in my opinion.

The money is now between a Triple H versus Batista match.



The storyline is great but I believe that the match would be a letdown, (at this stage of the game that is).

SO, since we know Triple H will always have the championship...

A part of me wants to see Batista win the rumble, but instead of deciding to face Triple H for the World Heavyweight Championship, he goes on to face the WWE Champion on Smack Down. With of course Batista winning the WWE Championship.

Now Evolution dominates the entire WWE.

Batista can begin to create his own Evolution on Smack Down. He could even have Kurt Angle as his Ric Flair. Insert an up and comer for Batista to tutor. Maybe that Chris Masters guy I keep hearing about.

Then with Triple H's Evolution have him offer Maven a spot. Triple H, Ric Flair and Maven as the Raw Evolution.

When the two brands are united under the same roof for BIG 4 PAY PER VIEW have Triple H sarcasticaly say something like, still have you're belt eh?

Also have Triple H question why he would choose Kurt Angle, a man Triple H has a long long long history with. And Batista can laugh at his new protege,... 'the bitch Maven'.


Batista can be heel on Smack Down but everytime he gets together with triple H he instantly becomes the face, simular to how he is right now.
------

I am hoping the WWE will unify the WWE Championship and the World Heavyweight Championship at Wrestle Mania 22. Insert, Batista the WWE Champion with another year of experience under his belt VERSUS the World Heavyweight Champion Triple H to unify the two titles.

If the WWE keeps on teasing this match for an entire year. I think it could be a Huge buildup simular to the Sting V. Hogan match that was built up for almost a year.
All the anticipation in the world.


Basically, since we know Triple H is going to squash guys left, right and center he may as well hold onto the title until WM 22 and then have him and Batista battle it out to decide who is the better Champion. If, all works out and is booked well for an entire year Batista should be a HUGE star.

HHH should just take a year off. I don't want to see him burry another show.

There are some good ideas in there. I'm a bit iffy with the whole Batista going to SD!, simply because although it would be good, I would prefer to see Triple H on the same roster with Eddie Guerrero. Maybe have Batista get traded for Eddie? Either way, I like the idea of Batista still working with Triple H, just on seperate brands.

Why not have Batista remain on RAW with Ric Flair, and have Maven and Rob Conway join Evolution, then have Triple H on SmackDown! with Mark Jindrak, Billy Kidman and Johnny Nitro or something like that. Batista would work just as well, but I doubt they'll be together after WrestleMania, though, and as I said earlier, Triple H vs. Eddie Guerrero is too good to miss out on.

If they do break up, there is nothing left for Triple H on RAW. He'd be better on SmackDown!, with Cena, Guerrero, Mysterio, Van Dam, Taker, Carlito Caribbean Cool, Jesus, Angle, Reigns, Jindrak and even JBL as potential feuds. I don't know why, but i can easily see Triple H finding a close ally in Doug Basham if it means anything.

Ideally, Triple H won't be Champion much after this year, but the WWE Championship I can stomache, because he can actually do something with the guys going for that belt.

I have nothing to add except lol @ the link in your sig.

as much as I love HHH I have to agree with you. he needs some time off. At least a year in order to stay fresh when he returns

A lot of people probably feel the same way, but keep in mind the "assumptions" I made at the start of my post.


A) Triple H is a mark for this business, and has backstage power.
B) Triple H will want to break Flair's records.
C) Triple H is the root of all evil, and probably helped OJ Simpson murder Nicole Brown Simpson. :p ;)

What I'm basically trying to ask, is what would be the "lesser of two evils" for Triple H? (assuming that he won't 'go away', and won't relinquish his main-event spot in the company).

In my opinion, going to Smackdown would be the best option for him.

He can bury his opponents all he wants, but atleast there will be a new set of them. And new feuds.

The "freshness" of Triple H's new feuds on a new show, can perhaps offset the repetitive cycle of Triple H dominating.

If Triple H wants to stay on RAW, then have Edge, Orton, and Batista head to Smackdown. Cena, Guerrero, and someone else can head to RAW. :?:

Yeah I would then watch SD more if HHH were on it.

HHH on SD=ratings for smackdown

I just want him to go away.

Well........a lot of people do. :)

Realistically however, this isn't going to happen for a number of years.

If what a lot of people say about Triple H is true (i.e. him being a mark for this business, and only caring about himself, etc.), then I'm just trying to figure out the best way to appease the inevitable (the inevitable of which is Triple H getting 6 or 7 more World title reigns?).

Heyman, here's the thing that drives me crazy when you talk about HHH. You say guys like Cena and Eddie could use the rub from facing HHH. But name me one guy, just one guy, who drew money because of a program with HHH. I'll save you time, there is no such guy. HHH is not a draw, he's not a money wrestler, nobody gets any rub from beating him, well maybe if he did it the right way, but thats not happening until Shane's kid hits the WWE.

Hunter plays the same game, over and over. He gets some new guys to face, he may or may not JOB to them, but ultimately he goes over them. Case in point is Benoit. He's never beat Benoit one on one, but if you look at where Benoit is today and where Hunter is, its clear the "JOBs" HHH did for him were useless. At the end of the day, Benoit was just another pawn, like RVD, like Kane, like Booker, like Nash, like Goldberg, like HBK and now like Orton.

Further proof is this talk about Cena being traded for Orton. Why do you think thats being talked about? Its because Hunter sees another guy who he hasn't had a program with, and he figures, hey I can get 6-8 months worth of matches out of that guy, and that'll keep me on top for yet another year. After Cena's done, he'll look for that next guy. And on and on it will go.

If Hunter goes to SD, that would make RAW a lot more interesting, but at the same time, SD becomes way way less interesting. Why? Well, you know the end game. Sure Cena or Eddie may get a win over HHH, but at the end of the day HHH will be the top guy.

Its the main reason why I hold no value in the RAW title, or the RAW brand itself. Its just there to make HHH happy, and nothing else. So if Hunter decides to start hitting blue ropes instead of red, well fine, then that show will become meaningless.

I really enjoy HHH being champion. And it doesn't bother me at all that no one else will have the title for long while he is around.

I see what you're saying. The question is, what would you (realistically?) do about it?

People can talk all they want about how "Triple H should be fired!" or "Triple H should JOB more!" but we all know that it's not going to happen.......thanks to Vince McMahon (blame Vince, not HHH for HHH's colossal backstage power).

Vince McMahon WANTS his son-in-law Triple H to be the top guy in the business (until Triple H is ready to "call it quits").

As far as Cena and Guerrero are concerned, I'm not sure what to think.

Would you rather see them............

A) Go 'over' guys like Angle and Big Show? Both Angle and Show have done their fair share of jobs over the years. Would a victory over either of those guys really DO anything for them?

B) Go 'over' a guy like Triple H (a man who rarely JOBS clean....if ever) in an important event/match......and go to that "next level" (even if its short-lived?).

Take Benoit for instance. His victory over Triple H was the biggest win of his career (or atleast it was booked to look that way).

Even though Benoit is in the mid-cards now, the fans see him on a higher level....than they did a year ago (I think?).


For example - If a guy like Batista had beaten Benoit 13-14 months ago, it probably wouldn't have meant much. Now? ANYONE who can beat Benoit, gets attention...........since Benoit was the one that beat Triple H at Mania'.


The way I see it, Triple H and Undertaker are practically the only TWO guys left in the WWE, who can create established main-eventers via jobbing......or atleast make the fans respect them as a solid main-eventer (for right now, lets ignore the fact that Triple H will ultimately get his return victory).

Furthermore - you KNOW that a guy like Triple H will almost always be on top of the card (and so if Cena or Guerrero is HHH's opponent, they get put on top of the card as well).


I hope what I said makes some sort of sense. :)

Yeah smackdown already has one Job-for-nothing-guy though.

Wow, that's changed my opinion a bit. I agree that no one has been made to look better than Triple H, but I think that's about to end with Batista. The WWE has realised that just turning an Evolution member face to feud with Triple H isn't going to work, so they've done it right this time, and I think Batista will end up "better" than Triple H in the WWE's light so to speak. Then and only then can I see him going to SmackDown!.

I would say June would be a good time to send Triple H to SmackDown!, and I know a lot of people enjoy the oasis from Triple H's reign that SmackDown! is, one of the reasons SmackDown! seems so dull at the moment is because there is no major heel (save for JBL and Angle, and even then you have to define the meaning of "major"). Triple H on SmackDown!, like it or not, would draw the attention of Stephanie McMahon, and like it or not, that gets SmackDown! a much better shot at becomming something noteworthy in the WWE's books.

You made me realise that Triple H isn't exactly the Terry Funk of the WWE, but even him just working on SmackDown! should get it some more recognition, and that might mean more attention to the cruiserweights, Eddie Guerrero, John Cena, etc. And if, and only if, Triple H helps puts over Batista as the new megaface on RAW, and Shawn Michaels puts over Edge as the new megaheel on RAW, you can have either Shawn, Hunter, or both, head over to SD!, and draw a bit of attention to that show. We might have to put up with politics for a while, but with Edge, Batista, Kane, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Shelton Benjamin, Gene Snitsky, Matt Hardy, Randy Orton and Maven on RAW, they're already established some stars, that can now help others get a footing.

You can send Kurt Angle over to RAW as part of a trade. Maybe have The Big Show accompany him? The Big Show and Kurt Angle are two guys who could fit into the RAW scene, that have pretty much done everything they can on SmackDown!. Kurt Angle vs. Shelton Benjamin, Kurt Angle vs. Batista, Kurt Angle vs. Randy Orton, Kurt Angle vs. Christian, Kurt Angle vs. Edge (again), Kurt Angle vs. Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle vs. Chris Benoit (again), and pretty much anything else on RAW with Kurt Angle could revitalise his character. Angle isn't the best in the ring anymore, but he's still capable of putting stars over, and getting decent matches out of fresh people to work with. The Big Show could add some good stories to the show, as well.

I personally think they should just reboot the current WWE scene, and have Batista and Edge kept away from Triple H, and have Shawn Michaels and Triple H kept on seperate brands. Have Benoit and Eddie on the same brand, and keep Randy Orton on a seperate brand than Triple H, as well. You could end up with something like this:

RAW
Triple H
Chris Benoit
Eddie Guerrero
Kane
Gene Snitsky
Chavo Guerrero
Matt Hardy
John Cena
Shelton Benjamin

SmackDown!
Shawn Michaels
Kurt Angle
Chris Jericho
The Undertaker
Batista
Edge
Randy Orton
Doug Basham
Danny Basham
Charlie Haas
Rhyno
Tajiri

It may not seem like much, but after a bit of work, I think they could turn into something of their own cycling environments, given a good mid-card/lower-card.

It would have been a helluva lot better for business last year, but I guess it still would be.

I tend to agree with this as well (what can I say, I'm an eternal optimist :p ).

I guarantee that Triple H will JOB at Wrestlemania in the title match (whether it be against Batista or Orton).

The QUESTION however, is what will happen after that?

-Will Batista or Orton only garner lukewarm reactions amongst the fans? (kinda like Benoit.......which is arguably one reason why his title reign was cut short, along with Benoit getting limited TV time during his reign).

-Will Batista/Orton become a big hit with the fans?

-If Batista/Orton become a big hit with the fans after WM-21 (upon defending Triple H), will they get more TV time/long title reign?.....or will Triple H ultimately get a return victory and have an even longer reign?

I think the LAST point will truly determine what Triple H and/or the WWE is all about IMO.

I think Batista will remain over as long as they do one thing, keep him with Ric Flair. Batista respects Flair (storyline-wise, and in reality), and they were actually together for a short time BEFORE Evolution (I think), so why not have Flair manage Batista, and have them turn face. Not completely "I'm a generic good guy face." like Randy Orton did, but an "We're not puppets anymore." style face.

If they have Edge go over HBK cleanly, then you have your Summerslam main event right there. Batista vs. Edge. I can see it at Backlash, but I don't think you should rush things. Keep Triple H on RAW for a while, and have Batista vs. Triple H at Backlash in a Street Fight (make the Street Fight a staple of Backlash), Batista vs. Kane at Bad Blood, and Batista vs. Randy Orton at Vengeance.

Then have Batista vs. Edge at Summerslam, and have Edge take the title cleanly, but make the match extremely close. You could have Batista retain, but I really think Edge should win the title this year. Then, if Edge is the megaheel, and Batista is the megaface, you can have Triple H depart to SmackDown!.

Mike Johnson and Dave Scherer were talking about this on the NYR post PPV show I heard.

HHH will be first to remind everyone that he is the last of the big main eventers (Rock, Austin, Foley, HHH) who can work on a regular basis (Undertaker). With that having been said, why does he need the world title? He should bring up more guys to the main event level.

How many shit feuds did the Undertaker have in the 90's? When they had no one to turn to they put the title on Taker. Thats how HHH should be used. HHH can draw on his own, he doesn't need the title for people to come see him.

But you are talking like SD does terrible numbers compared to RAW. When in reality, they are basically even. RAW does slightly better for TV tapings, SD tends to do better TV numbers. Everything else is about even. So its not like SD 'needs' HHH to get attention.

Plus, my point is that if you put HHH on SD, then SD becomes useless, just like RAW is now. Because its just a playground for HHH to pretend he's the biggest star in the history of the bsuiness.

As far as an answer, there isn't one, aside from just accepting it. But I'm jusy saying that its flat out wrong to say HHH has helped anyone by doing a JOB to them.

Will Batista get a chance? Yeah, for a couple of months, but then HHH will be back around, and even if he doesn't get the World Title, he'll never be positioned as anything other than the top guy in the WWE. That'll never change.

Bottom Line: HHH shouldn't go anywhere until he learns to create new stars. He should be reading Death of WCW.

I'm admittedly a bit biased when it comes to RAW (up until recent, I didn't even like Smackdown.....although it's starting to grow on me slightly). Truth be told, I'm actually quite amazed that Smackdown's ratings have been on par with RAW's. Almost everyone that I speak to in real life about wrestling, says that Smackdown is absolute crap!

On the flip side however, sometimes I get the impression that a lot of posters on here feel that WWE ratings would be 8.0 if Triple H was not on TV, or if Triple H jobbed to a certain guy 3 times in a row in an effort to make him the next "Hogan". :?:


Here's how I see it:

-Benjamin is held in "higher regards" now, than he was on Smackdown
-Batista is held in "higher regards" now, than he was a year or so ago
-Randy Orton is held in "higher regards" now, than he was before he joined Evolution
-Chris Benoit is held in "higher regards" now, than he was on Smackdown....even if his main-event push was short-lived (more on this later).

The point I'm trying to make, is that perhaps Batista, Orton, Benjamin, and Benoit look better than most people give credit for.............thanks in large part to Triple H.

Granted - NONE of these guys have ascended to the levels of Austin, Rock, or Hogan, but these guys aren't chopped liver either. Every single one of these guys have a large degree of credibility..............and have the foundations in being a credible main-eventer for the future (in my opinion).

-Batista and Orton have gone up in stature due to being associated with Triple H.

-Shawn Michaels looks like a guy who still "has it", since he's been made to look almost as good as Triple H

-Benjamin has been made to look like he's had Triple H's "number" on several occassions.

-Benoit is higher in stature now (as opposed to a year ago), due his WM victory over Triple H (because of Benoit's added credibility with these victories, he can help guys like Edge and Batista ascend to the next level).



In my opinion, because Triple H has the illusion of being a "god-like" figure in the WWE, it helps the people around him look better as well.........even if they don't get the final "say so" for the most part.


Take a look at Smackdown now.

-Undertaker *NEVER* *NEVER* *EVER* Jobs cleanly.

-Kurt Angle has jobbed on numerous occassions in the past (including the last 2 WM Smackdown main-events). He's also a shell of his former self due to injuries.

-The Smackdown creative team are seemingly unwilling to make JBL get clean victories (which means that he still has almost zero credibility as a main-eventer)


With the exception of Undertaker (who never JOBS!), there *IS* no "god-like" figure on Smackdown who can completely elevate someone as a main-eventer.

For instance..........

-If Cena beats JBL at Wrestlemania to win the WWE title, will the fans be like, "holy cow. Cena beat JBL! Wow!".

-If Cena beats Angle, will the fans be like, "wow! What an upset!"


In my opinion, Triple H is the ONE guy who can make the fans go, "wow......that guy beat Triple H clean! He's da man! :cool: "

That's one reason why I wouldn't mind seeing Triple H go to Smackdown.


The ONLY other guy left (in the ENTIRE wrestling world?) who can have this "Triple H-like" effect, is Brock Lesnar.

Even with that being said, Brock Lesnar will have to come back to the WWE and would have to DOMINATE again (to show that he hasn't lost a step). Knowing the WWE however, they will probably make Lesnar job a bit as punishment. :mad: :'(



Bottom line? - I think Edge, Orton, and Batista are ready to take the main-event spots on RAW. If Triple H is there, its going to be tough for that to happen. Triple H may not help Smackdown if he's there (although I might disagree with that ;) ), but I think at this point......he'd HELP Raw *AFTER* Wrestlemania by NOT being there.

That's sorta what I've been thinking about this. Triple H isn't a draw, but for fans of the WWE that watch every week, he is the "God of RAW". If he went to SmackDown! he'd be a "god" there, where he can help, even if he doesn't draw.

There was a RAW a while ago where there was no Triple H (during the whole "inmates running the asylum" thing), and it was great. This proves that the WWE doesn't need Triple H to function properly.

I think one of the biggest problems with The Rock and Austin leaving the WWE is that they didn't "make" any stars in the process. The Rock has since returned and made Christian and The Hurricane look good, but if he had a real feud with Christian, and he went over, you instantly have someone "above" The Rock. If you had Stone Cold Steve Austin job to Rene Dupree, he's be a huge star within WWE circles, right now.

Triple H was never quite on The Rock and Stone Cold's level. He was never a real draw, and quite simply, heels shouldn't really draw. I still think Triple H is trying to reach the level of The Rock and Austin in the public eye. I may be off here, but I think Triple H wants to extend to being a household name before doing "the BIG job". I think this is more likely though:

In 2000 you had Stone Cold, The Rock and Triple H. Now that both The Rock and Austin are gone, Triple H is the only one left. If he goes and sacrifices that like The Rock and Austin, then they've got nothing. That's why I think Triple H has been trying to Orton, Benoit and Benjamin guys. I personally think he's ready to take that dive, and give his legacy up to Batista.

HBK is another guy in a similiar position to Triple H, but I won't touch up on that.

Anyway, once Triple H does that BIG job, there's not much left. Triple H can't job to five guys on RAW and make it look believeable. After he does lose his "BIG job virginity" to Batista, he could head over to SmackDown!, where he would instantly credible again. On SmackDown!, he just has to lose to someone, and make it even more of a loss to them than it was to Batista. Have Cena make it look easier to beat Triple H than it did for Batista. Then you have two new "Gods" in the WWE, and with Edge on RAW, you have a pretty decent setup.

But anyway, I think Triple H is in this mentality where the wants the whole world to witness his BIG job, but I think he just needs to do it in front of WRESTLING fans. My theory is that there is a ladder effect. You have stars get the torch, but when they pass it on, it makes the person they pass it to look better than them. This goes on and on, while creating a more powerful torch each time. A buzz would be created among wrestling fans, each time the torch is either passed on. Triple H has yet to pass the torch on. He has passed it around, but not on. The biggest problem with this is that passing the torch around should make stars, but Triple H being from a different generation of superstars takes away form them everytime he takes the torch back. Benoit and Orton trading the torch would be great, but as soon as it goes back to Triple H, it means nothing.

One of the best things about the roster draft is that there are two torches now. Triple H holds a "universal" one at the moment. If he did a BIG job on both brands, you have two stars benefitting instead of one, and that is what Triple H is trying to accomplish, IMO.

Anyway, I think Triple H realises now that you can't wait until you're a draw to pass the torch, you need to do it when necissary to the wrestling industry, and when that is appealing ot the fans. So what if the Timmins family in West Virginia don't see it, or if the Chase family in California don't witness it? If it happens it should be directed at wrestling fans, and by holding out on them you are denying them what they want to see.

To be honest that's why ratings have dropped. Instead of giving wrestling fans what they want, they are trying to get in the whole world until they give them. Trying to please the largest audience possible is what the WWE needs to do, but the largest audience they have are wrestling fans. When wrestling fans are happy with the product, they tend to grow in number, rather than shrink. When you are trying to aim your product at people that aren't watching, it really tends to neglect wrestling fans, and that is when they shrink in number.

If your a real estate owner, try and sell the house to the people looking at it, not their cousins. Then when people go to their house-warming, they might just like the area.

If you are a wrestling promoter sell your product to the people watching, then maybe when someone sees it, they'll like it, and join your audience. Don't change it to suit people who aren't watching, because then the people watching weekly become removed from your product.

So in short (LOL, why do I stretch everything out?), Triple H and the WWE are trying to protect themselves until they get more viewers, IMO. I may be wrong, but I don't think Triple H is selfishly clutching to that spot. Vince McMahon, Triple H and Stephanie McMahon all know Triple H isn't what wrestling fans want to see, but they are in fear that if they waste their last guy from yester-millenium, they have nothing to make a big bang when more people are watching. I think if they spent more time trying to put big bangs on their shows, instead of having little bangs teasing us to when we get the big bang, you are more likely to get people watching WWE programming weekly.

This is one thing which I'm not sure I agree with. I kind of see what you're saying, but I also don't think that a "JOB" by a certain top-tier superstar automatically creates a huge star. In fact, it could have a double negative effect.


For example - If Austin does consecutive jobs to Renee Dupree in an attempt to make him a "star".......but the fans still don't care about Dupree that much....then

A) Dupree's push is a waste

B) Austin's credibility is killed (to the point where if Austin tries to put another guy 'over' in the future in the same manner, it wouldn't have anywhere near the same effect).

Think about Hulk Hogan. He would still be a immensely 'over' if he came back to the WWE, but would *insert wrestler here* going 'over' Hogan actually "mean" anything? No. Why? Because - Hogan jobbed enough times in 2002 (to the likes of HHH, Angle, Taker, The Rock, and Lesnar).


That's one reason why I always cringe when people say, "omg! Triple H should've jobbed to that guy!" or "Triple H is deliberately holding down that guy!"


Maybe there's an element of truth to that, but maybe the WWE also feels that *insert wrestler here* simply isn't ready to carry the company.

If you're going to have a top guy do CONSECUTIVE JOB'S (one JOB doesn't really put someone 'over' anymore), it has to be done to the *RIGHT* guy.......otherwise you could end up not only getting the intended guy 'over', but the guy doing the JOB also loses credibility (for nothing).


Right now:

Batista is a rising star......and has been booked solidly (for the most part). Benoit being pinned by Batista twice within the last few weeks, is a good example of a (well-deserved) guy going 'over'.

Had Benoit done this to a cocksucker like Garrison Cade, it would ultimately do nothing for Cade......and make Benoit look non-credible as well.



I wholeheartedly agree with that. :).

Good Real Estate analogy btw. :D.

Austin, The Rock, and how Triple H couldn't hold them down
 

One more thing:


This applies more to The Rock, but it can also apply to Austin as well (to a much less degree however).


From late 1999 onwards (when Triple H became a main-eventer), how many times did Austin and The Rock defeat Triple H? How many times did Triple H defeat Austin and The Rock?


-From what I remember, Austin only beat Triple H ONCE (while Triple H since 99', defeat Austin at No Mercy 99', No Way Out 2002, and at some other PPV...which I can't remember). Basically. 3-1.

-How about when Triple H fought The Rock in 2000? Triple H won the main-event at Wrestlemania that year. Triple H defeated The Rock in the iron man match.

The Rock never EVER defeated Triple H cleanly.

-He defeated Triple H at Backlash 2000 with Austin's help.
-He defeated Triple H in 2000 to win the World title by pinning Vince McMahon (Undertaker and Kane were Rock's partners, while Vince and Shane were HHH's).
-He defeated Triple H and Angle in a triple threat match at Summerslam that year (by pinning Angle).



Between Wrestlemania 15 and Fully Loaded 2000, The Rock barely had the World title.

Even after he won the World title in 2000 (at Fully Loaded), he lost the title back to Angle at the PPV after Summerslam. After he won the title back from Angle at No Way Out 2001, he jobbed to Austin at Mania'.



The point I'm trying to make, is that The Rock shined in the WWE without the World title. He didn't need the World title all that much, because his natural radiance and charisma was what made him a DRAW.

If I remember correctly in 2000, The Rock also jobbed cleanly to Undertaker.



A lot of times, The Rock was actually made to look BELOW Triple H, Undertaker, and Austin..........and yet he still outshined them all (except Austin....him and Austin were on par IMO).


To make a long story short, I think that if a guy is TRULY a world class sports-entertainer that can potentially draw, then its not like he has to have the world title 60-70% of the time. If a guy like Orton or Jericho really is "all that", then they'll naturally radiate.

Those are some top quality posts right there, Heyman. :y:

Alrighty, your point about Austin and Dupree did get me thinking, and maybe a job isn't exactly what I meant. But they had Dupree stand up to Austin, then had Austin just kick his ass.

While I like Austin, if Dupree had managed to beat down Austin, then parade around the ring, only for Austin to come to and look shocked, the Stunner Dupree, it lets Austin get the last laugh, and gets Dupree over as more than a tag team wrestler.

The Rock doesn't need to job to Christian, but if he had to hit Christian with two Rock Bottoms to keep him down, it gives Christian something to temporarily make him seem above a lot of The Rock's opponents.

But what really strikes me is your second post about The Rock. One thing about The Rock is that he was a very original personality. You'll never get anyone quite like The Rock. At least not for a very long time. Characters like Chris Jericho, although certainly are charismatic, aren't The Rock. Rocky was a one off case where crediblity wasn't needed, because he electrified crowds. Jericho could do the same, if they felt safe getting behind him, and if he was given proper direction.

Rest assured, I think Jericho and Benoit may be hitting something off on RAW next week.

First off, Thank-you. :)

Using the Austin/Dupree example, here might be a good/realistic way to get Dupree 'over' in this situation.

-Have Austin 'stun' Dupree during a promo one day (*insert reasoning here*)

-Next show, Dupree attacks Austin in one of his matches

-Next show - Austin stuns Dupree. Leaves. Dupree staggers....gets up, and motions for Austin to back to the ring. Austin does, and stuns him again. Dupree gets up again after 15-20 seconds........and fingers Austin. Dupree again tells Austin to get back in the ring (and gets stunned)

-Next show: Dupree comes to the ring and calls out Austin.....and says that he's not afraid of him. Austin comes down, and the two men brawl. Austin gets the better of Dupree, but Dupree doesn't back down or run away. Refs break it up. Later that Dupree challenges Austin to a brawl in the parking lot, but the GM prevents it from happening.

-PPV match: Austin wins a close and hard fought match. Dupree gets a few close pinfalls. After the match, Austin throws a beer to Dupree as a sign of respect.


What's established:

-Dupree isn't a coward.
-Dupree earned Austin's respect, and the fans respect Austin. Subconsciously, the fans now respect Dupree.
-Dupree gains credibility by pushing Austin
-Austin loses no credibility
-Dupree can use his feud with Austin as a "foundation", and display these levels of 'bravado' and 'balls' in other feuds.

Based on how the fans react to Dupree, it is from THERE that the WWE can either decide to give him a bigger push (i.e. a win over a more established wrestler), or keep him down.


Jericho vs. Benoit = *boner* :drool:

More than likely, the match will end with Christian/Tomko interfering.

I'd love to see the seeds of a Benoit/Jericho feud be planted however.

If any ONE of those guys ends up turning heel, it would be great for RAW.

Along with each other, both of these men could have 5 star quality matches with Shawn Michaels and Shelton Benjamin.

I'd prefer to see a HEEL Jericho, but they'd probably turn Benoit instead.

This probably would never happen, but I wouldn't mind seeing Jericho, Edge, Christian, and even Tomko forming a stable of sorts.

-Lets just say that Jericho turns heel.

-Lets also say that Christian and Tomko are dissatisfied with the way their careers are going (since they've seemingly hit a wall). Christian then comes up with a plan.

-Christian makes amends with Chris Jericho........and apologizes for letting a girl get in the way of their friendship from last year. Christian also complements Jericho on his "new attitude".......upon realizing that the fans are selfish morons.

-Christian then calls out Edge. Christian congratulates Edge on all his success, etc. and says that he wants to be friends with him as well.....since they're brothers. Christian talks about how 'blood' is thicker than 'water'.....and how he wants to make amends to their strained relationships.

-Christian then calls Jericho and Edge the two best superstars on RAW.....and that if they formed a pack, they'd be unstoppable. If Jericho and Edge continously helped Christian/Tomko retain the tag belts, then they would help them retain their singles titles.

-Christian also comes up with the idea that if Edge or Jericho is champ, then they should have each others backs as well.............even if they aren't really friends.


::::Edge and Jericho glare at one another:::::

Christian gets them to shake hands.

:::Edge and Jericho shake hands::::::



And voila - you have a stable which could last 6-9 months.


Christian and Tomko dominate the tag team division, Jericho becomes IC champ, and Edge becomes World Champ.

Eventually when Edge drops it, Jericho could go after the World tile.

That idea would actually work out quite well. :y:

You could have Edge and Jericho do a thing where if one wins they World Title, they hand the IC Title to the other. So say Edge wins the title at a PPV and at that same PPV you have Chris Jericho win the IC Title. The next PPV you can have Edge drop the title, and have Jericho win it at the following PPV, and then Jericho gives Edge the IC Title.

The thing is, they'd be best to give Jericho, Edge and Christian mic time, simply because all three are awesome. Then give them matching attire. You could give Tomko the attire, but I think it would be best if they kept him seperate.

Just an idea, maybe you could add Trish Stratus in there somewhere. Have her rejoin Christian and Tomko, then have her and Jericho start up Jericho/Stephanie McMahon thing, with Christian and Tomko keeping it in check. Christian plays the role of the leader in this stable, even though it is more of a team effort. It would help everyone involved, IMO, and I really think it would help with the absence of Evolution.

To the rest of the roster, Triple H is the like the retard at the big family wedding. One side of the family takes care of him while the other side enjoy pleasant conversation. Then HHH goes and visits with the other side of the family, where they are forced to "dumb down" the conversation to appease him.

All the while, the retard thinks everything is fine and dandy, and everybody loves him.

Okay, but then Eddie, JBL, Cena and Booker T are all in higher spots because they've been on SD. It has nothing to do with anyone on SD, it just has to do with the fact they recieved bigger pusshes.

Same thing with the guys you mentioned from RAW. The fact that they are in higher positions, has little to do with HHH, it just has to do with the fact that they were pushed.

And none of those guys do numbers, so obviously getting a "rub" from HHH means nothing. Especially when HHH is a terrible draw himself. So there's nothing backing up what you're saying. You just seem to be drinking the HHH kool-aid that he's the "best in the business" and beating him actually means something, when there's no evidence to proves thats the case.

That's true, there is no evidence, because Triple H has yet to throw everything into a match, and walk out with nothing except his legacy.

He's "lost" to Benoit and Benjamin, but it didn't feel like a "big" loss. If Benoit had gone over Triple H one on one at Mania, then I think things would be very different right now.

Can you really say that though? Eddie Guerrero won the WWE title, but was then made to look like a "fluke" champion. His victories over Lesnar and Angle initially, weren't clean. Guerrero then jobbed the title to JBL. Angle then convincingly defeated Guerrero at Summerslam. Now? Guerrero's been jobbing to Mysterio?

Atleast with a guy like Benoit, he had some clean victories over top quality opponents.

Guerrero's in a higher spot than he used to be, but don't you think he was booked poorly?......to the point where he lost major credibility as champ?


Booker T isn't any better off on Smackdown as he was on RAW. He's still a mid-carder for the most part. :wtf:

JBL has a new gimmick and has been pushed, but

a) His WWE title win was way out of left field....which made the fans raise their collective eyebrows more than anything.

b) He still has no clean wins over credible opponents.


JBL is "higher up" on SD than he was on RAW, but has he gained much credibility?

Maybe. Maybe not. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. The way I see it however, Batista and Orton benefitted IMMENSELY from their associations with Triple H. Without Evolution (lead by Triple H), I'm not so sure if Orton/Batista would be 'over' as they are now.




That's what I strongly disagree with. Back in 96', ratings for the WWE were pitiful. Eventually however - the WWE creative team came up with Austin 3:16.

Austin jobbed to Bret Hart at WM-13, but it still contributed to Austin's growing popularity.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but wouldn't that be like saying, "Bret Hart wasn't bringing in numbers and so a "rub" from Bret means nothing."

I still think that guys like Benjamin, Benoit, Orton, and Batista would count as evidence (to a certain degree), but oh well. We'll agree to disagree. Either way - I still highly respect your opinions. :)

Orton and Batista were apparently on Sunday Night Heat for a while having a series of Batista squashes. Not sure how accurate that information is because Aussies don't get Heat (damn I wish we did, though, same with Velocity). Anyway, Evolution (Triple H & Flair) should be given a lot of credit for making Orton and Batista.

That's sort of the same lines that I'm thinking on. Hate Triple H all you want, but you can't deny the impact that he had on Orton, Benoit, Benjamin, and some others. Could he have done MORE to those guys? Yes.......perhaps. I'm not ruling that out. Could he have done MORE for the likes of Jericho, Booker T, and RVD? Yes. In my opinion, perhaps so. Still - it's MANAGEMENT's decision. Triple H was just doing what anyone else in his position would've done. If management (idiotically?) wants Triple H to continue to be the top guy (regardless of him drawing lackluster numbers), then why hate Triple H for it?

Even with that being said, maybe mangement has a VALID REASON (one that us internet smarks cannot see) for doing what they are doing. NONE of us have a TRUE idea about what goes on.


That's another reason why it drives me crazy when people blindly attack George Bush, etc. Is George Bush mishandling the Iraq situation. My gut feeling says, "yes". Is there a good chance that his administration sees something (or "knows" something) that the rest of the world....even Michael Moore (gasp!) does NOT know! You're damn right.

We as the public (who are not "behind the scenes") are only exposed to a VERY limited number of facts. In some sense, its almost "self-righteous" for ANY of us to blindly criticisize something that we're not fully aware of.


In regards to the WWE, a few things have legitimately pissed me off.

1) I think Lesnar should have been an undisputed champ that appeared on BOTH shows after winning the title at Summerslam 2002. Did Triple H "hold him down?" Does Triple H have more power than Vince McMahon? Why blame Triple H for something like this?


2) I am VERY pissed off at the fact that Jericho and RVD have not received World title reigns since 2001 (or in RVD's case, never). Is it Triple H's fault? If so - how do you know? Why does Vince McMahon or MANAGEMENT not take "the fall" for this? Why Triple H?




Anyways - these are just some of my thoughts. A guy like The CyNick admittedly does know far more than I ever will about the WWE, but I honestly can't see the LOGIC in this (blind hatred?) for Triple H.

Its not a matter of opinion though, its fact. The guys you say were helped by HHH are not doing any bigger numbers than the guys on SD. So aside from your admitted bias towards RAW, you have no basis to say HHH has helped them. JBL is doing the same PPV numbers that HHH is doing, so where is the evidence that Orton, Benoit and co. have been helped by HHH? Like I said, this isn't opinion, its numbers, which are factual.

But are numbers an accurate way to measure the "ranking" of a superstar? I normally side with you on these things, simply because for the most part you are right on the mark. I just can't help but think that numbers don't measure the wrestler, though.

Triple H is easily more credible than JBL, IMO, and in a match between the two, I think marks would take the side of Triple H. Should he doesn't draw better than JBL, but within wrestling circles, he's basically twice the superstar JBL (which is a shame).

Orton, Benoit and Benjamin can go back over to SmackDown! now, and beat JBL for the title credibly without it being a reach. To be honest, I can't even see Jericho doing that. I don't think there is a factual way to measure if Triple H has helped these men, but it is my opinion that people now see them in the same league as Triple H, and that really helps them, especially with the current SmackDown! scene.

1) I believe it may have been worked out with Lesnar's blessing. Brock did not like the travel, and two seperate shows a week, on top of house shows, is much more than what Lesnar may have opted to work.

2) Jericho did hold the World Title for 4 months, and it was pretty forgettable. No dubt he could fill the shoes of World Champion, but he is a last resort for the WWE. That pisses me off, but blaming Triple H.

RVD on the other hand is pretty simple. I've never been a huge fan of his, but even if I was, I couldn't deny how much of an unsafe worker he is. When he first debuted in the WWE, he was kicking people left and right doing damage. Putting the World Championship on a guy like that (whether or now he was over with the crowd) would be a bit dangerous.

Will RVD ever get a chance? I don't know, maybe, but I think it will come down to how interesting he becomes based off his character, not kicking people in the face. It really all depends.

Is this really true?

I DO know that RVD punctured Triple H's throat one time in an Elimination Chamber match, but I never really followed RVD in ECW (I only watched the WWF(E) at the time).

Did RVD injure many people in ECW? From the sounds of it, he was a big hit down there.......and had legendary matches with Jerry Lynn, etc.


I'm not sure HOW unsafe RVD is. but was it really worth NOT having him as a main-eventer? (a guy who was waaaay over in 2001).

He may not be Bret Hart, but he's not exactly Hardcore Holly or Ahmed Johnson either. :?:

Hell - Goldberg was a shitty and somewhat unsafe worker for WCW, but the guy drew money.


Given a re-push of RVD (as a heel?), I still contend that RVD could do the same for the WWE.....at present day.

Maybe you have a point...and I somewhat see what you're saying, but does my Bret Hart/Austin comparison have no validity?

-Austin was a rising star in 96'

-At WM-13, Bret Hart defeated Austin....but did it in such a way that made the fans respect Austin more (which further added to Austin's foundation and credibility)

-Ratings still were shitty, but Austin still picked up decent wins over other credible wrestlers.

-Gradually....Austin 3:16 really took off....and lead to a popularity boom.


So - looking back on it, can we REALLY say that Bret Hart had no part whatsoever in helping Austin 'get over'? (just because at the time, the "numbers" and "facts" didn't illustrate that?).

OR

Can we say that Bret Hart helped establish Austin's foundation as a FUTURE draw?


That is sort of what I'm trying to say.



Asside from that, I also believe that RAW has a stronger foundation for FUTURE success and growth than Smackdown does (assuming that the current rosters stay the same). Call it a 'gut feeling' if you will.

But anyways - that's just my opinion and 'gut feeling'.


I truly do believe that guys like
-Orton
-Batista
-Edge
-Benjamin

have greatly benefited from being on RAW.....and have the foundations set for a solid main-event (re)push.

A guy like Mohammad Hussan is already beating guys like Jericho on House Shows (indication for the future?).

Aside from John Cena, I can't see anyone on Smackdown who's really gained credibility.

-Eddie Guerrero became a WWE champ, but never really got any clean victories (I think he got one over Booker T once if I'm not mistaken). After that however, he jobbed to a "green" JBL, got shitkicked by Angle, jobbed to a "green" Luther Reigns, and has now jobbed to Mysterio.......3 times.

-Booker T initially got a heel main-event push, but is now a mid-carder again.....like he was on RAW.

-JBL became a main-eventer, but still has no credible wins.

-Luther Reigns has victories over RVD and Guerrero, but he still gets made to look extremely weak at times (i.e. against Big Show, etc.).

-Dupree has done nothing of significance.

-Kenzo Suzuki has done nothing.