The Future of Submissions?
 

I was thinking, with the exposure of MMA it's pretty obvious that all pro wrestling submissions are fake. For instance, the sleeper, pretty sure that'll put you to sleep in less than 3 second but in pro wrestling it can be on for 20 minutes with no lasting effect. Any armlock would really end a fight super quick but it's prowrestling so no, it doesn't.

What do you think will happen with submissions down the line. Will Vince, for instance, say if you get a submission on, make sure you tap really quickly to make it seem legit?

Or will they go the other way and make submissions useless?

Or will they go the other way and make submissions useless?

That's pretty much where they're now and where they will continue to be in future. Anytime i see a sleeper hold i know its time to turn over, cause i know what will happen next and it'll be like the sleeper hold never happened. If you're gonna use a submission in the match to bore us all, make it matter in the match later on ffs.

Well, in wrestling, submissions are more of a way to wear down your opponent unless it's a finisher like the Ankle Lock or Sharpshooter. When moves like those are put on, it's realistic enough that they fight through the pain, at least for a bit. The struggles add to this.

Sleepers, headlocks and leg locks are usually used for resting themselves up (hence "rest hold") and to set up the next set of moves, so I don't think that rest hold-type moves will ever change, as they are a staple in the match itself, both to the fans for wear down and to the workers for setups and rests.

I see what Xero is saying here, but for me, having learned about submissions and whatnot, you tap out in a second or two or something will break. So for me to watch wrestling submissions I get aggitated.

I think I'm FINALLY outgrowing this shit.

Honestly, I don't think they're SUPPOSED to be to the point of breaking anything (if we were talking a 'real' contest here). Commentators have noted more than a few times that if wrestler so-and-so wants, he could break so-and-so's arm/leg/whatever, but they don't. As I said, it's wear down, not actual submission.

Unless it's the dreaded........................................

ROTTEN TUNA TRIANGLE!

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...A/scp0_071.jpg

That's the opposite of REST hold.

:shifty:

Ah yes, sleepers and headlocks may not be used to 'wear the wrestlers down' but they wear me down enough for me to turn over!

Vince will absolutely NOT do this. Because he is fucking stupid and out of touch with the real world and what his target audience now expects.

Submissions have to change to either quicker tap outs or more scrambling during submissions as opposed to the current lay back and moan until you tap. There will have to be more rope breaks too.

Oh and I have said this for fucking ages but the top 10-15 guys in the company should all have submission finishes on top of pin finishes and they actually need to win with them at least in one in four matches to get new submission moves over to the people. Right now, 99% of wrestling matches are just either waiting for the finish or if it's a kick out, you get another kick out of the opponent finisher and then they'll try and trade finishers before using their own to win. They need more unpredictable finishes. Some of the best matches in history ended with small cradles or sunset flips and it didn't hurt the matches in the slightest.

I don't see how submission finishers would equal unpredictable finishes. If they did it one out of every four matches, every time they lock on the submission it'd be obvious that the match is over.

Of course, if they started finishing matches with, say, armbars and chokeholds the fans would become pissed from the weak finish because they've been trained (talking marks here and to an extent 'smarts') to like the big finishes over the past 20 years or so.

The first thing that needs to be done in WWE about submissions is to stop putting over a shitty ass Full Nelson and a really shitty version of the STF as finishers.

You know a finisher I miss? Dean Malenko's Texas Cloverleaf. Submission moves like that.

Its really irrelevant nowadays. If the "target audience" is too fucking dumb to realize its "fake" and then bitch about unrealistic submissions they need to watch MMA. I don't know a single wrestling fan who watches pro wrestling for realism. It was designed to be unrealistic. Then they pray they can achieve your suspension of disbelief. I have started enjoying MMA, but it is blatantly obvious that its different from pro wrestling. I watch MMA to see 2 guys fight in a variety styles. I watch wrestling to see pro wrestling (which is the single most unrealistic "sport" in the world). I do think the sleeper hold needs to be retired, but that would kill Randy Orton's career.

That makes no sense. How can you suspend your disbelief when you know it's total unrealistic.

And if it's meant to be unrealistic, how come fucking every single major angle in pro wrestling history was based on realistic feuds?

That only started around 1994-1995 though, anything before then was fairly unrealistic.

Every major modern-day angle maybe, but not every major angle.

I like how their getting the Anaconda Vice over, no one has broken it or survived long in it yet.

I agree with this. Something I'd like to see is similar to what happened in the first Hughes vs. St. Pierre fight for example. IMO St. Pierre ws getting the better of Hughes and it looked like the first round was about to expire, when out of NOWHERE Hughes hit an armbar and St. Pierre tapped out immediately. To me that was badass!

I'd like to see someone in WWE that goes against all the traditional psychology of typical matches like this every once in a while and be a total badass. Angle was close for a while hitting ankle locks from different positions, but then they ruined the credibility by having people like ***cough*** Cena ***cough*** staying in the ankle lock an insane amount of time without tapping. Then WWE turns around and has supposed badasses tap out of the shittiest STF(U) in history IMMEDIATELY. :wtf:

But as Rob said, Vince will never do this because he's so out of touch with what his target audience expects. WWE picked up it's quality and adapted it's product based on what the competition was doing years ago during the Monday Night War days. I'd like to see them do it again. There may not be a WCW out there right now, but at this current rate things like MMA and UFC may just be the eventual end of WWE if it continues to insult the intelligence of it's target audience by continuing to have it's brands cartoon like in nature.

WCW and ECW were unpredictable at the hight of there existence, which is what drew viewers away from WWE. New time, new era...replace WCW/ECW with MMA/UFC and we could have history repeating itself....only this time Vince seems too stubborn to change his product accordingly. I want and miss unpredictability in wrestling and I get it with UFC/MMA. Most every friend I had back in college and whatnot that LOVED wrestling that doesn't watch it anymore has the same response when I talk to them. "WWE is too cartoonish and for kids now. I watch UFC."

It may not be directly competing with WWE as far as time slots go, but the more UFC I watch...the stupider I feel for sitting through 2 hours of crap WWE dishes out on Monday nights, so now I barely watch it anymore. IMO, there needs to be a different kind of "Attitude" era in WWE and it could possibly come based from an adaptation of the way it uses submission moves. Bring a sense of unpredictability back and a "big fight" atmosphere.

The same way people get into a movie or television show.

I wasn't talking about storylines. I was talking about the actual wrestling, but even Tom & Jerry cartoons were based on a realistic premise for their story.

We are talking about 2006 and not before 1994 though so that is irrelevant.

The major modern day angles outdrew fucking everything pre 1994. There are like 2 shows in the WWE top 20 attended shows and the gates and PPV buys WM3 have been mullered since.

And for James Steele, the most popular shows and films in the modern day all have realistic stories. Even the horrors are more fucking believable than most wrestling matches. The most popular shows in the world today - CSI, Lost, Dancing with the Stars/Celebrity strictly come dancing, Desparate Housewives, Sopranos, Deal or No Deal, The Shield, etc, etc - aside from the island aspect of Lost, all are real life based or reality shows. Even Lost suspends your belief enough to have you believe the island aspect could really happen. Wrestling matches no longer do this. WWE storylines are fucking shit. I could name 20 shows right now off the top of my head with better writing. UFC, a shoot company, books old school feuds better than a fucking fake wrestling company can. They suspend belief FAR BETTER than WWE do.

Vince McMahon is in his 60's and his immediate staff are all over 40. Sorry but no way are these fuckers going to tell an audience from 18-25 what is cool. And in no way are they suspending belief enough to attract new viewers because kids barely watch wrestling now. At least with the over the top characters and gimmicks back in the day, wrestling was able to catch their eye. Who is gonna catch their eye now? Cena? Carlito? Kane? Give me a break.

Some people have suspended their belief for so long though that they become blind to what is going on around them.

Not to be a dick...well...okay, to be a dick...wouldn't "single major angle in pro wrestling history" include before 1994? :o

That is opinion, and its pointless to debate opinion.

Okay then what angle/feud drew legit main event money without a realistic feud?

If someone is of the opinion that currently WWE suspends belief better than Lost, The Shield or CSI then they should be instantly checked into a mental ward.

Occasionally they do.

When in the last say 2 years?

CRYME TYME

Seriously, the Triple H/Cena fued, Edge/Cena, and Edge/Foley fued were amazing feuds this year. Right now, the RKO/DX fued gets me into RAW more than anything (That is amazing considering I can't stand Randy Orton).

Okay that was funny. I'm repping this.

Wrestling isn't MMA though. It has it's own set of rules. MMA matches sometimes finish in seconds. Real fights don't last for half hour. People need to stop moaning that wrestling is less realistic compared to MMA. It's not an applicable argument. Even in the deepest, darkest days of kayfabe, wrestling was not "realistic"- now it's out in the open. Wrestling is scripted. Futhermore, the business has created it's own concepts and psychology that simply don't apply in real fights.

If you try to make wrestling more like MMA, why would you watch wrestling? You could just watch MMA. Who would choose a pre-determined wrestling match that looks like an MMA fight over watching an actual MMA fight? I know there is a lot of cross-over between the fans, but keep the two seperate.

Case in point: do you really think that Kurt Angle vs Shawn Michaels (quite possibly the greatest non-gimmick WWE match of all time) at WrestleMania 21 would have been quite as dramatic and edge-of-your-seat stuff if Michaels had just tapped out right away the first time he was put in the ankle lock?

Why single out submissions? Is a power bomb realistic? No. But people love to see them now don't they? This isn't really an issue.

Just for those who find it impossible to suspend their disbelief (whilst watching freakin' WRESTLING!) the announcers always put over the sportsmanship of wrestling to cover the fact that these guys aren't leaving bouts with broken bones and smashed up faces. Things like the "open hand punch" and the "rope break" to end submissions. And what's more, they act with disgust and horror when somebody uses a submission hold to deliberately break somebody's bones (such as Kurt Angle when he was breaking everybody's ankles with the ankle lock). It helps put over the severity of an angle such as this, and also lets you know that wrestling submissions are not designed to put a wrestler out of action and somebody who attempts to do this is deplorable.

It may not make an awful lot of sense (why would you "go easy" on an opponent you are trying to beat?) but at least it is a (kayfabe) explanation for the fact that submissions do not often lead to breakages/tears etc.

Yes, because it adds drama and psychology to a match that way.

It does look like it hurts, it's just a question of how long the wrestler can hold on. Don't forget that a lot of drama comes out of the rope break rule, which you don't get in MMA. If a wrestler can reach the ropes, the move will be released. Speaking from a kayfabe point of view, in MMA, if a submission move is securely locked in you have little chance of breaking it and had better tap out ASAP to limit the damage. In wrestling, the wrestler DOES have an out... the rope break rule. And many a match has added a lot of excitement and suspension through use of that device. That's as good a reason as any as to why wrestlers don't tap out instantly to a submission. (Barring the fact that the submissions moves probably barely hurt at all, coz it's a work.)

Of course, yet ANOTHER reason why it makes sense for wrestling to do things this way is that it makes wrestlers look like superheroes if they can withstand this pain for so much longer than a MMA fighter can.

And I also recall announcers talking in the past about how wrestlers can withstand submissions so much better because they are so strong and muscular. And I suppose, as we do seem to be comparing it mainly to MMA here, wrestlers DO tend to be bigger and more muscular than MMA fighters on the whole. So there's another reason.

I mean, I'm not disagreeing with you per se. I just think it has never proven an issue in the past and I doubt it will in the future. Don't forget that an early WWE response to the growth in popularity of MMA was to introduce the "tap out" finish in 1997. Before then, submissions were called verbally. In the ten years since then, they haven't adapted submissions to work any faster than before and I doubt they will anytime soon.

Yeah they brought that in when they signed Ken Shamrock in 1997, and pushed it hard as the new way to submit. Um, except in one certain match in November 1997 when they conveniently forgot about the tap out method, and accepted the time-honored tradition of the "No I don't quit" verbal submission. But that's another story for another time.