Pro-Wrestling Engine: How Should It Work?
 

From the Street Fighter 4 Thread:

Okay, we're pretty much in a agreement that SvR has indeed ran it's course with no evidence of THQ's team reworking the engine. The near ten year old series has seen two overhauls max (one largely aesthetic) and we've put up with it best we can. We all have strong ideas for what a wrestling game should play like, and I think it would be cool to pool our ideas and have a chat about it around the (supposed) time of the new SvR being announced.

Mind you this isn't an SvR thread, more about what we'd want in a pro-wrestling game. But if your ideas are WWE-centric that's all well and good. I'm also gonna refrain from posting my own lengthy post as of now. This is about the actual gameplay engine, not feature set. We ALL want a create-a-titantron but I'm more concerned with what goes on between the bells.

And yeah, feel free to shit on what's wrong with past wrestling games anyway. Good to vent.

I :heart: you.

I'd love to see the Ultimate Control engine taken to a new level. I'd like to see EVERY move in the game modifiable. This would be a whole new grapple engine, I suppose.

There are two possible front tie-ups and within them four possible setups, for a total of 8 setups. Let's say, within the "strong" grapple is a Powerbomb/Piledriver setup, Tombstone setup, DDT setup and Chop setup. Within each of those setups is a maximum of four possible moves.

The moves themselves can be modifiable. For example, you put someone in a powerbomb. If you do nothing, it's your variation of the powerbomb. If you hold the Left Trigger you hold onto them longer and can walk around/position them. You hold the Right trigger you can either taunt or do part of a multiple Powerbomb. You release it and you do your powerbomb. Of course, while all this is going on there are multiple instances where it can be reversed.

Basically, this would expand the absolute basic movesets to about 16 front and 16 back moves and expand the possibilities of the moves themselves.

Too complicated? I don't know, I'm writing this without much thought.

One thing that NEEDS to get put into a wrestling game is ragdoll physics. Seriously, no bump would be exactly the same. No sell would be exactly the same. This would be the ultimate feature for any wrestling game, really, in terms of presentation.

I think the Ultimate Grapple was the coolest addition Yukes half-assed for whatever reason. I was expecting killer shit after it debuted in 07(?), but it didn't really move forward after that. LoW (Acclaim) had the right idea, but it was executed pretty rigid.

What Xero is proposing is really not a complicated set up, and what it do is allow people to do what they want really. My thoughts on a grapple system is very similar.

But what I really wanted to be addressed is the 'momentum' of pro-wrestling. I feel like the current system is archaic and largely unchanged from two generations ago. Charging up a meter to do a finisher just doesn't make sense for a pro-wrestling game. It's a fighting game kind of thing, but it's not how I'd do a wrestling game. Oddly enough, I believe the next step in momentum control can be found in THQ's own crowd tracks.

When the crowd cheers mixed chants for two wrestlers, that shit is nice. I started to wonder what triggers the sound bite. I found that it's largely time-triggered with no real relation to the match (like the insulting "ECW" chants at the start of an ER match but never when something hardcore happens). I think the crowd should be tied to the actual game and dictate the momentum, making audible cues important.

And BTW, get rid of Superstar ratings. I seen it mentioned in another thread and I agree that it doesn't work. I mean, it's basically a fucking tier list made clear. And the crowd cheers louder for the high numbers blah blah... It's gay. If Superstar ratings never appear again they won't be missed.

And yay to ragdoll physics. It would be essential to table mechanics.

I more or less liked the way Momentum worked in the No Mercy engine. The way it led to finishers was hardly perfect, for such a system, but as far as momentum works, it was decent. Tie it to the fans a little more, and it's a pretty sweet deal.

Any good wrestling game should have a fatigue system. I wasn't very impressed by DoR or the Smackdown fatigue systems, though. Fire Pro on the GBA was better, and I'm assuming the console games were, too.

I think one of the basics we need is more control in the way moves are executed. Like say, you can turn your character mid move to direct the impact. It never made sense to me in so many of the wrestling games why (for example) Jericho would turn someone into the ropes for a Liontamer/WoJ, or Undertaker would twist towards the ropes to do a Tombstone/RIP deal.

Perhaps it could be a feature of an "ultimate control" style system. I'd like to be able to slam someone into the turnbuckle, a table, or the ropes with the same move to different results. I'd rather do it without hot spot prompting, too. I dislike QTE/Minigames in the Smackdown series. We give up control for some sweet moves. Or not so sweet with shit like chop battles, which could easily be done without minigames.

I think the minigames (using the loosest sense of the word here) are required for some gimmick matches and definitely the submission system (though the SvR minigame isn't the way to go). But otherwise they can go.

I think finishers should be available whenever. The power of it should be dependent on the crowd backing, unless it's some out of the blue counter - which should rightfully bypass that.

I agree, but there has to be a system that makes it progressively less likely to hit that finisher, or really any move, to prevent spamming.

If someone's going around giving you 50 Powerbombs, you'd think the opponent would wise up to the move. In fact, they could implement a feature where every time a move is executed, the player "learns" a bit more about it and the time frame for countering it expands, at least for a short time, or maybe more opportunities for a different type of counter opens.

This would also work well for a career mode, going from basic counters up to more options over the span of the mode, essentially adding a "leveling" system without the "Superstar rating".

I think wrestling games could slightly benefit from something along the lines of an EX bar. Like, rolling with the idea that a finisher can be performed at any time--but what's the difference between "Bah gawd, he hit that Pedigree out of nowhere" and "BAHGAWDHE'SFOLDEDUPLIKEANACCORDIAN"? I like Xero's idea that spamming a particular move should increase the counterable frames--and probably reduce the damage of that particular move for a while as well, sort of like the way Smash Brothers does it.

Meanwhile, doing the "EX" version of a move might buffer it--making you do a different version of the move that's maybe harder to counter and more powerful. Different levels of "EX Momentum" might result in different variations--you might be able to tune up the band and Sweet Chin Music on the fly, but hitting that shit out of nowhere when your opponent's in the middle of a totally different attack might eat up a little of your bar.

EX Sweet Chin Music should have HBK collapse dramatically.

OR

Keep EX moves and add Desperation Finishers. The desperate Sweet Chin Music would have HBK fall down.

A lot of this stuff is coming from fighting games, ironically.

Mashing buttons to lift a somebody much larger than you needs to return.

i like the idea of desperation finishers. honestly i think if you took the no mercy engine and added a huge whole bunch of shit to it and wrapped it up in a nice graphics package you'd be almost set. its the most fun wrestling game i've played by far, and the slower pace suits the genre.

to be honest though this is something i've considered a lot seeing as i've been playing the same game with my brother for something like 9 years now, so i could talk the arse off you all about the things i'd want adding to the no mercy engine. i don't know why no other game (or at least no other game i know of) doesn't have the no mercy direction and button grappling system rather than pulling off street fight like combinations. i know def jam had it but there was no way to customize that really and it was lacking a lot of variety.

Current gen wrestling games (SvR) use a similar No Mercy grappling system, just with the analog stick.

I haven't seen "Street Fighter-like combinations" since the Warzone engine.

We should never see them again. They were still better than WCW Nitro's joke of a system.

Don't think so.

DoR2 had the deperation move and EX finishers.

Plus it had the best thing of all, the fact that I could punch anyone at any time, not just while they were not doing something else. That has to be any wrestling game engine.

Most wrestling games in the last few years have had strong and weak grapples, and strong grapples are harder than weak grapples, so by default, it's going to be harder to spam them.

King of Colosseum is damn near perfect imo.

Even the finisher system adds more strategy and depth than any other wretling game.

As far as I know, there's no automatic reversal system. So yes, it's easy to spam any move, aside from finishers in the current SvR engine.

Do you want an automatic reversal system? I think SvR's reversal system works in the standing game, broken in the high flying game.

No, just saying you can spam any move in SvR (with stamina turned off, anyway).

It doesn't work. The buttons may do, but:

1) The timings horrible

2) Generic reversals should be shot. Each move should have a reversal animation/move that then can also be reversed. I would take less moves for this.

I find SvR's reversal timing fine, except online. Online forget it.

But that's a lag issue, which for whatever reason has not been fixed from the first SvR.

You can adjust the window of countering in the options. I tend to close it. The options governing the in-game mechanics is actually pretty deep over all, giving you the option of weakening finishers or making them more deadly.

But anyway, the reversal system is just find, IMO.

Submission systems need a major overhaul. I have not found one, in any game, that I was 100% happy with. I suppose the button mashing tug of war is okay, but it seems there should be some way to make it better.

I hate SVR's "unlock" mechanic, and I despised the timing mechanic that was in before. Maybe do the button mashing with a combination of analog control where you can use your hands to try and break out of the hold or kick someone in the face.

You should have to spin the stick rapidly, like in Mario Party













lololololol

There should be a jumping mechanic.

It's like we're playing fucking Zelda, all we get is automatic jumps and rolls.

It's not as good as No Mercy's

One button to counter everything was pretty simplistic. R buttons broke because of that shit.

What? L reversed grapple attempts and R reversed strike attempts. Hell, you could even do a better grapple reverse and slip in behind by pressing A at the right time and slip behind for a reverse grapple.

Whoops! You're right, had a brain malfunction there. Don't know where that came from. :|

But my stance remains on SvR's reversal system being straight forward.

LOL auto reversal.

Doesn't Cena do that IRL?

I appreciate your attempts to be ridiculous and over the top, but sometimes it gets to be too much. Like adding sugar to your Hawaiian Punch--the shit was already too sweet...Now you're just making yourself sick.

I'm self destructive.

Well, I'd be too, if I was a black guy who fapped to Jap music. :p

Don't judge me. :(