Hypothetical: Options in Fighting Games
 

And I'm not talking about Time Limits and Quick Select either...

I mean options that effect gameplay so you can play as you wish. Let's use Street Fighter 4. Let's say you have the option to turn on or off the Ultra Meter, quick steps, EX and Super Moves? Basically you can have it play like Super Turbo if you wish, or even Street Fighter 2 (one of the game's challenges has you playing just like that).

Would these options be welcome? Or WILL YOU BE LIKE THE BITCHES AT SRK.COM AND NOT WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE THESE OPTIONS. GOD DAMMIT THEY ARE FUCKING GAY.

Anyway, while you can have these options for your own local play, and even search it for player matches, you would still have to play the default game for Ranked Matches. I think this is an acceptable system, and one that many other genres already present gamers. Fighting games lag behind on this sort of thing, and I think they have catching up to do.

What say you?

what is srk.com?

Would these options be similar to what the Smash Bros series does with items and match options?

This idea probably would work much better with a brand new fighter series than an established/serious fighter series since it would help to stand out from a game like a Street Fighter or Virtua Fighter.

Shoryuken.com, particularly its forums.

Street Fighter doesn't have items and it doesn't need match options. But as I said, it would affect whether or not the Ultra Meter would be there or not. Super Meter's optional, along with Super and EX moves. And finally the quick step move. That's about it really.

I use Street Fighter 4 because it's engine is often heavily debated amongst fans and it has a rich history in gameplay. Removing certain elements can have it play like older Street Fighters if one wanted to.

More variables like that would be cool. Somebody mentioned kind of like Smash Bros. You could have a whole bunch of different things to alter, just to fuck around with. :)

Not just anything, I don't think guys need to alter knock-down properties for instance.

The game's partly balanced around Supers, Ultras, and especially EX moves. Turning those off at all would completely neuter some characters.

And why shouldn't people be allowed to alter, say, knock down properties or whatever, if they're already turning off EX moves and Ultras? What's there to be picky about exactly? It just sounds like you have a beef with Ultras and are disguising it as... this.

I love Ultras. Some people don't. To those people I consider the idea of optional elements. My idea isn't one of self interest but something that could benefit the majority. People like options.

I do not believe however that the actual engine conventions should be optional. A sweep is a fucking sweep. You have loads of options in Halo but you can't make a Battle Rifle work like a Rocket Launcher. The different between something like special meters and move properties are rather simple to identify.

Except for how core the special meter is to Street Fighter IV. It's not just something they tacked on there at the end, the game is established around it just like shit like sweep distance and jump height. EX moves are an actual engine convention, I'm not sure who told you otherwise.

Wrong. Fucking wrong.

One of the challenges in the very game disables every element but the core engine, essentially leaving SF4 playing like Street Fighter 2. If these elements were essential, the game would be a mess without them. It would seem the game plays fine without them, I'd go as far as to say such altered gameplay could support an entire following.

The meters are not equal to sweep distances and jump height, not even close. One could play the game and not use EX, Super, and Ultra moves and his user control will remain consistent to general gameplay. Altering sweep distances, jump arcs, and move properties would in fact alter the actual game significantly.

May I ask how much you actually know about fighting games? This isn't the first time you spouted something straight-up wrong about the subject.

Yeah, it's part of a challenge. Because the entire cast loses a certain level of utility when you take out the bars, and some characters are completely and utterly crippled by it. Certain characters--characters you don't play, I guess--have very major sections of their strategy and countering tactics hinge on EX moves. Feel free to continue acting like EX moves, Supers, and Ultras are just some shit they sorta threw in there without balancing gameplay around it--it's totally logical and everything.

"How much do you know about fighting games?" What sort of begging the question-type bullshit is that, by the way? Do you want a legitimate answer? You want me to make you a fucking chart, or is this one of the most blatant fallacies dumped into a baseless argument I've seen in days? O: See what I did there?

Name the characters that hurt without the meters. Name them please. Name these "characters I don't play". Because the only reason I'm thinking this is because I don't play with every character. Surely the characters you will name will magically also be the characters I don't play. So give it a try and give me a list. Once I confirm that, hey, I really don't play these characters, we will see that I'm wrong. Right? So let's have it.

Of course, the notion that I only play with characters that can go without these meters - hence my stance supposedly - is absurd. But I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and hoping this list of characters blows my fucking mind. Go.

You don't have to answer, trust me. And yeah, we're gonna see who has the baseless argument in a second - assuming you don't dodge my challenge.

Actually, the bizarre part is that I'm pretty sure you should know already--at least, if I recall correctly. Have you really never turned a match around with EX Hooligan Throw?

A substantial chunk of many Akuma players' strategies revolve around combo'ing into his Super FTW, though that's most certainly not his only option--it's just that his other options involve... being kind of silly.

Sagat without EX or Ultra has no real reason to ever use Tiger Uppercut over Tiger Knee. Not exactly crippling to his gameplay, but I don't see why you'd want to completely wreck what little versatility he has over the usual TIGER-TIGER-TIGER-HIGHKICK-TIGER-TIGER.

That's off the top of my head, after not playing it for fuck knows how long. Surely there's a reason people do that challenge with certain characters specifically, while others are rather ill advised? Aside from the obvious LOLZANGIEF. And are you really sticking to the idea that certain characters--say, Akuma--aren't balanced in SFIV (discarding past SFs for this particular case) with their bar moves very distinctly in mind? Akuma loses a pretty healthy amount of his capability without his Super, at the very least struggling quite a bit harder against characters that don't necessarily need it as much.

Which is really the thing here--people that don't use the meters want to turn them off. What if I don't personally use sweeps? Why shouldn't I be able to turn them off? You still haven't really done anything to convey why there's a distinct line in the sand between this level of customization and that level of customization, and anything retarded I've potentially said in the past doesn't disregard you from that. You're offering a very visible bias with little justification, outside of us, uhh, taking your word for it.

Ohhhhhhh, and Gouken. Sweet merciful God, I think I'd drop Gouken entirely if he lost meter powers.

This has to be the weirdest e-penis argument I've seen.

So that aside, I like the idea. I don't know or really care how it works in SFIV.

Against an opponent who used EX moves on me so... what? I have won games with Cammy without EX anything. She does not need it. I have used it to best an opponent, but that end of the match facet making her somehow dependent on the move is the same logic that says he who drinks the last of the lemonade drank it all.

And I use EX moves a lot to great success. That doesn't mean I believe the game (or certain) requires it. Altering options wouldn't even affect Ranked play anyway - so why even mention competitive play? I see where your stance comes from, and I fuckin knew it. More on this later.

Akuma, with the hilarious stamina? Well let's think about historical context: Akuma is Capcom's first post-Super Meter character. To your credit he is dependent on a powerful super/ultra move - his weak stamina reflects this. It's almost his gimmick. Fix his stamina after removing his Raging Demons from his move list, however, and you will find that he's still a viable character even without the maneuver.

SAGAT'S THE BEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME! ARE YOU SERIOUS!? HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT HIS DOMINATION?!

He's broken, dude. Your admission that he has "little versatility" is... jarring.

Bias? BIAS!? I'm bias for wanting people to play the game how they want? Absurd. Let me educate you (in a respectful manner):

When a fighting game is developed there's a reason the last things to be implemented are the special meters that add to, and complete, gameplay. Before the super and ultra meters were added to SF4, you can bet they had the core engine up and running. Because there is a clear-cut difference between core engine mechanics and elements that round out the gameplay. Only after you mostly finalize core elements (move properties, ranges) do you augment the game with things like Super Meters, Ultra Meters, Critical Attack Meters, Guard Libras, Guard Meters... This is why when you get preview pics of fighting games, you don't see any bars let alone meters. The core engine comes first, then meters, then you optimize them together best you can.

This is how you distinguish between sweeps and Ultra Meters. One is related to the core engine the other is not quite as necessary. Modifying shields in Halo is one thing, making gun properties behave differently is another entirely. There is no option to make a Battle Rifle behave like a shotgun or plasma rifle.

Your argument stems from personal skill, and this much is understandable. You cite personal experience for your case and that's well in good, but it doesn't correlate with what's going down.

The Ultra Meter is a big topic amongst players of Street Fighter 4. Some like it, some hate it. This is common with fighting games that have had many different incarnations. What Street Fighter can do is offer options, not unlike other games, for people to define their play experience - including keeping the game how it is (my choice). My stance is one that helps most, and if that's biased than I'm a biased fuck.

I'll give you that. He's such a grandma.

Thanks, KK. Always a great addition to any thread.

But let's be honest, this is not the weirdest e-penis argument you've ever seen me in.

IRON-MAN, PEOPLE.

So why do you think the Shoryuken forums always shoot your shit down? I'm curious and eager for amusement.

Roommate confirmed that Dan Hibiki rather direly needs his EX, and Zangief usually needs it against Blanka. Admitting that they'd have to actually change Akuma's health to reflect a lack of Raging Demon completely wrecks whatever silliness you're trying to tell me, and I didn't even bother finishing the part where you apparently work at Capcom during game development. The lack of a heads up display does not indicate a lack of actual mechanics, but it's baby steps toward some sort of logic like that that keep me from taking you seriously.

Well, that, and the fact that most of your "big ideas" are things that have already been shot down by competitive players with mountains more experience and talent than you have. You just tend to copypasta them here afterward, where you can pretend you're the big fish in the small pond and nobody really gives a fuck to tell you otherwise.

Also, Sagat doesn't have versatility. Having a couple of outrageously OP moves doesn't make you versatile. Again, he doesn't need versatility, and I admitted that his gameplay isn't wrecked whatsoever--forgive me for not putting OH AND SAGAT'S BROKE in big, fat letters as I attempted to keep one trick ponies from turning into half trick ponies.

Elitism with a blend of stagnant comfort to be exact.

Explain this confirmation process. Betting you can't.

Except you have no example of this. Didn't we cover the whole 'baseless thing'? But I'll bite:

Name two, just two, of my "big ideas" that "more experienced and talented competitive players" have "shot down".

Now you have to find the original post to these big ideas, too.

Or you could skip to the end and just say you're pulling shit out of your ass.

Sagat's top tier. He's very versatile, a top-tier quality of top-tier characters.

This
Capcom vs Adult Swim
A Combo Discussion

And you got from SRK about what you got from here in regards to your 3 Character fighting game idea, in that "...Err, sure, I guess, but that's not really new. At all."

Can you confirm Dan Hibiki doesn't need his EXs? I mean, if we're going to play that game, then I would think burden of proof lies on the guy wanting to make changes to the present game design, but grasping burden of proof insinuates that you can make a cohesive argument without relying on stall tactics and massive fallacies. You've already admitted that Gouken and Akuma can't function without super bars without playing around with the rest of the game mechanics, which means... err... that you can't just make it an on/off switch. That, plus the Dan thing--see burden of proof, above, makes at least three characters that would themselves have to be heavily played with mechanically to adjust to the absence of something you deem unnecessary.

Lol, elitism and stagnant comfort. That is amusing. I can't imagine driving the wrong way down a one-way street and thinking to myself--as all these cars drive in the opposite direction, honking and swerving--that I'm the only motherfucker here that knows about driving.

- The idea of options in SF4 is mix received in the SRK thread. And I'm not sure what makes you think they're more "talented, experienced, etc".

- They waved off Cvs[as] as "Street Fighter vs Anime" with the grand irony being that Capcom eventually made a game that was just that - and they fucking love it. Not the best case to try and use against me. I also wouldn't call them "experienced, talented, competitive gamers" either.

- The combo discussion wasn't a "big idea". Funny you bring that up anyway as it's another example of your fighting game know-nothingness. Tekken 6 is defined by combos and juggles now. But we don't wanna swim in that pool again, right?

That's not even close to the replies I got.

You are completely right. The burden of proof is on me. Me vs your roommate. I'll use Dan, no EX, Supers or Ultras. He'll have to do the same. And while we have that meta-game match, my point would be proven through activity - AS WE ARE PLAYING THE GAME SANS EX, SUPERS, AND ULTRAS. THAT'S MY FUCKING POINT.

*buzzer* Try again.

Games are sold to people. They take it home and enjoy them. You can't do that with roads. Roads are outside and mostly public. We all have to obey rules of the road that govern us all. With games I you can change the rules that affect me and whoever else joins me. I'm glad I can help you with what must have been a blurry line for you.

Alright, Kalyx Triad. You're right and everyone else is wrong

Good luck actually convincing real people of this, becoming a mod, etc., etc.

This discussion seems to have took a rather bizarre tangent in the form of 'Are Kalyx triaD's ideas well received on SRK. Surely there is only really one way to settle this.

I honestly don't give enough of a shit to argue this any further. He can accept his default victory and all the prestige that entails, I really don't give a fuck.

It's not that. It's not that at all.

From what I see you enjoy SF4 as is. So do I. Some people do not based on certain elements, chiefly the Revenge system. How about a way for these people to augment the game in a way similar to other competitive games? They can take out the Ultra Meter, Super Meter, ad naseum (am I using that right?).

Will it alter the game? Yes. That's the point. Will it make it a lesser game? Maybe, but fuck that because we still have our game. That's all. This isn't some radical idea, it's been observed in other games. Give them the options to make the game what they want, more people will be happy. Hell, I don't know about you, but it's sad getting butthurt-mail from guys telling me "I only won cause I played the Ultra" or "Cammy's EX Hooligan is gay". Now those fucks can go in an environment and suck there with no more excuses.

Don't you want to see more smiling faces? >>> :)

Those fucks should play Street Fighter II like a not-retard.

I honestly don't fucking like SFIV, and I hate--hate, hate, hate the Ultra system. I'm not going to pretend it would be perfectly balanced and fair to just stuff in an off/on switch for it, though, there's going to be other gameplay repercussions and there's going to be serious shifts in balance.

Or not, I guess, since they apparently just tacked that shit on? I'm not going to keep arguing and hunting down links and all sorts of other shit for a game that I don't even fucking play anymore, though.

They really should play Street Fighter 2. People who play SWAT mode in Halo 3 should play Rainbow Six. I understand completely.

But they should have options to play the games how they want. This is better for everyone.

I doubt most of Kalyx's ideas are well received anywhere. Nothing against Kalyx, but most of his ideas are pretty bad. This one's innocuous enough it seems hard to think it's bad, but I've never played fighters as competitive as these folks evidently do.

Oh, and seriously. Capcom vs. Adult Swim? What the fuck, man....

You do realize CvT is doing well on Wii? Capcom putting their characters up against anime characters certainly have an appeal. I think my ideas are great, the biggest issue being that there isn't a venue to put it into practice to test the theories involved. All I could do is talk about it, but I'd never succumb to the notion that "since it'll never happen, don't talk about it". Which isn't KK's stance, just saying. And if you truly believe it's bad, and sound off about it, don't be surprised if I defend my idea. Some of you use the fact that I'd do that as a supporting case against, like I'm supposed to silence after I read people don't like it. Not my style.

Education: Capcom vs [adultswim] wasn't an idea so much as a dream match sort of deal. That's not how development works. I wouldn't go to Capcom with a game document consisting of fanart depicting Capcom characters fighting [adultswim] characters. Anybody who thought that much, fuck off, I know better. Thought I'd make that clear.

Thanks for reading anyway (gonna stop saying that).

"tl:dr" I know, summary: I don't post ideas so they are well received. This is a forum.

Quite. Which reminds me, I need to get it so I can try it out. But that doesn't mean Capcom vs Adult Swim would fly.

Which is unsurprising, but don't be surprised if people don't take well to them, either. As you point out, this is a forum. A natural extension of posting one's ideas is getting them shot down. It's the sort of thing that goes both ways; you make your ideas known, other people tell you they're good, or bad, or to shut up.

I think it has a little more to do with the fashion in which you propose and defend ideas. And if yo have a problem with the responses you get, feel free to not post. But you can't really have it both ways, saying you're going to keep posting ideas which will get you bashed then acting like it's some ungodly act of sabotage. You know people here don't like your ideas. You post them anyway. That's fine, it really is. But at some point, you stop being the victim when you know the response is still going to be "your idea sucks" and you get your panties in a wad.

Admittedly, you do sometimes get more crap than you should.

Pretty sure you mean "it wasn't a serious pitch," and that's fine. but it was an idea, obviously. You can't have a "dream match" without an idea, and as an idea, I think it's bad. Looks like others did, too. Yeah, sure, I'm sure SRK thought it was bad because it's Capcom vs Anime. And now they're happy with CVT, which less vindicates you and more makes them hypocrites if true.

that last part wasn't intended to look like I was calling you a liar, BTW. just that I'm kind of apathetic and not going to check their responses, either.

It would have rivaled an orgasm to bump that thread in SRK once I seen them accept "Capcom vs Anime" with ironic glee, but they wiped their older threads in the years since. I have to settle for a silent victory there, but "You people are fucking phony" backed with a link would have been sweeter. :D

And while I may imagine someone not wanting Ryu going up against Hank Venture, they specifically rejected the idea of Capcom and anime characters doing the tango. It's something I found weird, as Japanese game characters are right around the corner from anime characters (as far as archtypes go). CvT comes out and they cream their pants. Cue "wtf" icon.

BTW, don't think CvT is out in America yet. I believe it's this month, though.

I just want to turn off gravity...

Late January 2010 is when its supposed to come out here.

Ah fuck.