[Supreme Olajuwon]

Originally Posted by Fox You're right in saying that just being a threat doesn't make someone a good heel; it takes various qualities, many of which make the person out to look like a cheater or an asshole or a manipulator - but making them out to look like a threat doesn't hurt either. There are lots of examples through wrestling's history that show that if you make the bad guy look like he's not only a devious asshole, but also a true THREAT to the number one good guy, then he'll get that much more over with the fans.

But what makes a guy a threat? All you need to have for a legitimate threat is the idea that the heel has something that he can use to his advantage. Maybe it's his dominance, maybe it's his willingness to cheat. They both work equally well. The topic of this thread is that Nexus aren't credible because they don't have clean wins. That's just simply not true.

The nWo are a perfect example: they came in and conquered the entire company, and they beat guys clean because the group was made up of "good wrestlers" who were also assholes.

Who did they beat clean? Jobbers? Midcarders? That makes them legit to you? Whenever they faced a big name they cheated CONSTANTLY (which Nexus does). They jumped people in the back (which Nexus does). They turned the entire locker room against them (Nexus did this too).

If the nWo was such a dominant force, why did Hogan cower from his opponents in every single match? Why did he run from Sting, Warrior, Piper, Goldberg every time they showed up?

But there is no better example than BROCK LESNAR: Here's a guy who came in and squashed everyone, and most of them he squashed clean, and it made him look like he could brutalize people. They built him up huge with big wins over mid-carders and upper mid-carders like RVD, gave him KOTR, and then put him over The Rock for the Undisputed Title at Summerslam, CLEAN. And Brock became the biggest thing in wrestling in a long time. But I didn't "respect him", as you suggest winning cleans makes a wrestler "respectable", (which is bullshit). He was still an asshole. He still beat people up and bullied everyone around. He still worked with the biggest "agent douche" in the company, Paul Heyman. He was still a heel, he won most of his matches clean, and he was the biggest thing in the WWE, bar none.

Brock Lesnar is a once in a generation talent. Brock Lesnar was legit from the moment he was born. You don't just create a Brock Lesnar.

So that's one example of a guy who didn't need to cheat to be a great heel. Let's throw in the Undertaker, Kane, Vader, and Yokozuna too. Do we notice the similarities here? They're HUGE. None of these guys needed to be built as a credible threat. The audience knew they were a legit threat the moment they stepped into the arena.

Now let's look at another list:
Ric Flair
Chris Jericho
Eddie Guerrero
Ted Dibiase
Edge
Shawn Michaels
The Rock
Triple H
Mr. Perfect

Are these guys all great heels? Absolutely. How many of them were dominant heels who scored a ton of clean victories? NONE. Are you going to tell me that they would've been better heels if they would've won more matches cleanly? If you are, you're insane.

You're so condescending here it's almost irritating. Even more irritating is your ignorance to the idea that if Nexus had more clean wins on TV; if they had a "legitimately stronger" team, one that could manage to take out John Cena in a 2-on-1 situation after Cena had been DDT'd onto concrete, then the group as a whole, and perhaps the storyline as a whole, would be that much stronger and more interesting.

And you're completely ignorant of the fact that because Cena won at Summerslam, it was that much more shocking when Barrett beat Cena and made him join Nexus.

The single greatest heat generator in wrestling history is when a face is clearly superior to a heel in the ring and would crush the heel in a fair fight, but the heel refuses to fight fair. And that's exactly what happened with the Nexus. We know Cena is better than every member of Nexus. He's the biggest name in the business and these Nexus guys just came from a rookie audition show. We know Cena is better. But it doesn't matter because Nexus is willing to do anything to win. And that makes them a threat. And that's why the audience was dead silent in shock after Barrett beat Cena.

Superman was boring until they brought along Doomsday and proved someone could kill him. This Cena enslavement angle is very, very good and is the best they've come to bringing John down to someone else's level. Barrett is getting a huge rub from it and I know he'll be a World champion some day, possibly soon. But I'm not ignorant to the fact that it could be BETTER, than Nexus could be STRONGER, and that more clean-cut victories for all of the members would only help to make them that way.

Why would they put Cena down on other people's level? He's the biggest star in wrestling.

And of course it COULD be better. Everything could be better. But you guys seem to be operating under the assumption that stronger necessarily leads to better. You don't know that. You don't know where they're going with this.

What a mindless attitude to go about with.

No. It's looking at the bigger picture. How can you say a story is missing something when the story is still happening? You wouldn't write a movie review halfway through the movie. How do you know that the stuff you want to happen won't happen next week? You don't. So just enjoy what you're watching. This angle is good. All you're doing by complaining about it is missing out on other good stuff.