[Heyman]

Originally Posted by The CyNick There isn't anyone in wrestling today that getting a win over automatically makes that person a star. Not HHH, not Undertaker, not Kurt Angle, not HBK. The only scenario where I could see one win having a huge impact would be for someone to defeat Taker CLEANLY at Mania, ending his streak. But a win at any other show over Taker is pretty muchy meaningless.

The good ol' days. 500+ worded responses from The CyNick.

Obviously - you're right about the Taker scenerio, but I think you're underestimating the value of what it would mean to (convincingly) go 'over' Triple H.

Obviously - not ONE victory would automatically create someone, but consider this:

-Benjamin has gotten the better of Triple H in MORE than one instance.

-Benoit has defeated Triple H on more than one occassion.

The fact of the matter is nobody is over enough for a win to have that big of an impact. Benoit beat HHH and HBK by making them tap in back to back months, but that wasn't enough to get him over as a legit main event draw.

Maybe - but do you honestly believe that the fans DON"T perceive Benoit to be "bigger" and "more impactful" than they used to? I'd argue that more fans *DO* perceive Benoit to be a legitimate "main-eventer" (as opposed to around say....January of this year).

But the biggest problem with the WWE is that HHH just cant let anyone else get the spotlight. Benoit was starting to get on a roll after Mania and Backlash, but right after that, HHH used his pull to get Benoit out of the main event spot, and HHH was back in the spot, just without the belt. This made the belt seem pretty worthless, and marginalized Benoit as a rising star. Look where he is now, he's essentially got the Jerihco spot where they can put him in main events to have good matches, but he's well below the top mix.

The problem with Benoit after Wrestlemania (IMO), was that he still hadn't established THAT much credibility with the fans (even with the victories over HHH and HBK). At this point, Benoit was still perceived (IMO) as a "guy who got lucky", etc. (kinda of like how Guerrero has been made to look).

I think this problem stemmed from the fact that Benoit had been made to look too AVERAGE for so damn long (prior to late 2003). His push from late 2003 to Wrestlemania 20 just seemed a bit..........rushed.

After Benoit won the title at WM (and retained it at Backlash in Edmonton), his reactions were still very "lukewarm".

Hence - I believe that the WWE made the RIGHT DECISION at the time in giving Triple H more TV time (despite Benoit being champ).


With that being said however - I think Benoit established MAJOR credibility when he defeated Triple H in the iron man match (even though Eugene interfered in the end, I still think Benoit was made to look ON PAR with Hunter).


Now - with this whole "leadership" gimmick/attitude, I honestly believe that *NOW* Benoit has the foundation to be a HUGE face. I believe that if the WWE continues to use this current momentum of Benoit until Wrestlemania, he'll be BIG. Maybe its just the optimist in me, but I'm seriously drawing some Bret Hart parallels here.


I guess the main point I'm trying to get at, is that credibility isn't built over night (unless a "new" guy comes in and starts dominating right away.....like Lesnar for instance). Chris Benoit had been made to look average for WAY too long for the fans to realistically perceive him as a bona-fide main-eventer.


I'd argue that if John Cena had defected to RAW instead of Benoit (and was put in the same situation as Benoit), then Cena would have gotten HUGE amounts of TV time after winning the title.


1) Because he would've been way 'over' (unlike Benoit).

2) His gimmick was on fire, and the 'novelty' of his gimmick (combined with the fact that he was a 'newer' guy who had seemingly achieved so much in such a short time span) would have given him CREDIBILITY amongst the fans.

Could he ever be 'the guy', maybe. But what happens is that fans lose faith in guys. Look at RVD and Jericho. I can point to times where those guys were as over as ANYONE in the company, and yet they were never given the chance to run with the ball. And everytime they would come close it was less and less effective because fans lost faith. Your average fan wants to pick a guy to cheer for who will win most of the time. Look at the all time great faces in modern history (Hogan, Austin, Rock, Goldberg) all these guys were booked as dominant faces and fans ate it up. Why? Because people want to cheer for the best, thats why the Yankees are the most popular team in baseball, ditto for the Lakers in basketball (or the BUlls in the 90s). So yeah Benoit was the champ, but he was a mid crad champion for most of his reign, and people were slapped in the face with the fact that nobody is bigger than HHH.

Excellent points on RVD and Jericho......ones of which I agree with. For whatever reason - I guess the WWE felt that they wouldn't be able to DRAW in a significant way (and hence - put them in a role where they'd be elevating mid-carders).


The thing with RVD and Jericho however (atleast what I believe) is that they're sooooo damned popular, that the WWE could re-push them anytime they wanted (i.e. provided that they have a SOLID, un-rushed, build-up before that).

BTW, Heyman, you know I respect you, but dont use words like "myths" when talking about Hunter's power. Hunter is the most powerful person in wrestling, period, including Vince. Vince's problem is that he cant say no to Steph, and obviously Steph does whatever Hunter wants. So as a result the WWE has become Hunter's playground.

Thank-you......and I obviously respect you back, but I still don't QUITE understand this disdain for Triple H? If anything - shouldn't it be towards Vince? (who GIVES IN to Stephanie/HHH?).

Triple H is a guy who is looking out for HIS best interests. He's like you and me.

Why should *HE* be faulted if Vince 'gives in' to his wants and needs? Triple H is doing what we'd all do (c'mon ADMIT IT!!!!!!!! you *know* u wanna )

Vince and his pussy ass writers should be the ones to be criticisized.

You talk about HHH making people, but he hasn't "made" anyone. The way you "make" someone is like what Foley did for Orton....and HHH.....and Rock. What Hunter does is typical political stuff, he'll do a "JOB", but does the win put the guy who beat Hunter above him in the pecking order? Hell no. This happened with Benoit, happened with Benjamin, and Hunter hasn't put over Orton yet, but he will at Mania, and the same thing will happen, in 4 or 5 months HHH will be back at THE top guy on RAW.

I'll have to disagree here. Obviously - Triple H hasn't created "the next Rock" or "the next Austin", but is that ENTIRELY his fault? (again - if anything, I'd point my fingers at VINCE).

Also - the entire economy and wrestling industry has been DOWN for the past 3 years (since late 2001). Maybe the WWE figured that Triple H should create a new MEGA star somewhere down the road (When the WWE felt that the wrestling industry and economy would be on its way back up).

-I'd argue that Triple H has helped establish Benoit as a "credible" main-eventer.

-I'd argue that Triple H has helped Benjamin establish credibility to the point where the fans could BELIEVEABLY see him as future world champion.

-Guys like Orton and Batista have benefitted from being associated with Triple H. Granted - Orton didn't "take off" after Summerslam in the way that we ALL wanted........but is it still not possible to push him?

Also saying HHH is valuable is about the dumbest thing ever said. Look at the numbers, HHH is no more effective in terms of making money for the company than JBL is. There have been no new main event draws created since HHH took over the top spot for good in the summer of 2002, except for Brock, who HHH sabotaged. In terms of Hunter looking out for himself, thats a fair point, but it shows that even though Hunter stands to inherite the WWE one day he cant get past his own ego to see that he should step aside for the better of the WWE. For some reason he looks at the falling PPV buys (all of which he headlines), the dismal house show attendance (all of which eh headline, at least the one's he's on) and flat TV ratings (most of which he is the focal point for), and says to himself "yeah I deserve to be on top". He is either too big of a mark for beating Ric Flair's title record (which means nothing to anyone besides himself) or too ignorant to see what is going on and has been going on for almost 3 years now. So yeah, HHH can do a JOB here and there, and yeah it gets a pop, but where are the new stars? There are none. Look at every PPV (SD shows not included) since the summer of '02 and you'll see Hunter has been the one constant through it all, yet business continues to get worse and worse. So if anyone thinks that makes HHH effective, well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Hey CyNick - I think you're disdain for Triple H is the equivalent of Michael Moore's towards Bush!



NOT A FLAME.............JUST AN OBSERVATION.
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But we still love you.