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Old 07-23-2013, 11:47 AM   #1
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Do title reigns matter?
Been thinking recently about what impact title reigns have on someones legacy and if it actually means much.

I mean Cena is a 13 time world champion, Edge was a champion and Orton is a 9 time champion, and in my humble opinion I don't think any of them will go down as having as big of an impact on the business as people like Flair, Hogan, Undertaker, Hart, Michaels and Triple H.

It just seems that a few years ago they were throwing titles around like hot potatoes.

Thoughts?
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:48 AM   #2
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Depends on the reigns.
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:51 PM   #3
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Depends on the reigns.


or
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:40 PM   #4
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Wait until guys like Cena and Orton have been around for another ten years, and their "impact" on the business might change.
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:51 PM   #5
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Depends on who wins it and how the reign develops.

Swagger's reign as champion was pretty much a bust since it ended up not helping him nor having anything good come from it. Punk's year long reign was great for him since it lead to a lot of great moments and helped fuel his "Best in the World" tag.
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Old 07-23-2013, 04:51 PM   #6
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It sure as hell matters to this guy, DAMMIT
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:20 PM   #7
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I miss a good Edge title run, it was hard to let go of E&C, but if I ever got a little bit bored of Edge having a title, I would remember the good times the 5 second poses and TLC matches Edge participated in.
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Old 07-23-2013, 07:36 PM   #8
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It's one of those things that take time. Very rarely does one see something special, recognize it, and enjoy it. The Attitude tag team scene, Hogan and Flair in the late 80's and Austin/McMahon are rare instances wherein we remember and relish reigns, matches, moments and "the chase." Most of the time we look back and realize where a reign or champions place in history is, such as a Sid title reign vs. a Mankind title reign.
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Old 07-23-2013, 09:13 PM   #9
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Heath Slater is a 3 time champion, but extremely under-rated
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:42 PM   #10
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I see what you're getting at with the thread. Not every championship can feel like when Punk won it for the first time at MITB. Sometimes it's just to get a title on a guy like whenever the WWE Title is on Cena or the guy with the case now who's made out of the same copper material the new tag belts were made out of.

Thats not a bad thing though. Thats why special moments are special. We may be getting a feel good story with the title at SummerSlam. If so, enjoy.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:54 PM   #11
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Haha Heath Slater has more WWF/E tag team titles than Bret Hart.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:57 PM   #12
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Yes, but I'll bet Bret has waaaay more concussions. That's a title right therrr
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:01 PM   #13
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If I like the person who is champion then yes. If I hate the person who is champion then also yes. Only problem is if somebody who is boring is champion. Jack Swagger was pretty charismatic before he became champion but then he turned serious and it threw off his gimmick. Horrendous booking even though he won a title defense against Randy Orton during the reign.

When the WWF was the most popular they played hot potato with the belt alot more and nobody seemed to care.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:10 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Jack Swagger was pretty charismatic before he became champion but then he turned serious and it threw off his gimmick.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:12 PM   #15
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Wait, nevermind. Wiki tells me that was after he already lost the title.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:13 PM   #16
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There. Redeemed myself.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:14 PM   #17
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SUPER EXCITED AT HIS WIN
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:15 PM   #18
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As opposed to his lack of excitement to win MitB
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:27 PM   #19
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I dunno i think it was kinda funny when it put Rey in the ankle lock throughout the whole arena.
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Old 07-26-2013, 12:34 PM   #20
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Quote:
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I dunno i think it was kinda funny when it put Rey in the ankle lock throughout the whole arena.
Think that was after Rey had taken the title from him and Swagger was pissed and trying to weaken him for the rematch at Money in the Bank.
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:34 AM   #21
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Feel like in today's WWE, nothing really matters.
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:33 PM   #22
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It's no longer the amount or even the length of the title reigns, it's what is done during those times that matters.
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Old 07-26-2013, 10:34 AM   #23
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I think its more to do with how they're presented than anything else, Dolphs a two time champ, one of those lasting an episode of Raw, but that's never acknowledged on tv. It probably meant more holding a title back in the day, they're just props now more than anything.
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Old 07-26-2013, 12:43 PM   #24
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Quote:
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Dolphs a two time champ, one of those lasting an episode of Raw.
Yeah it's just padding out the resume although I think being a multi time champ does add a certain legitimacy to guys chasing the title or putting over newer unestablished champions.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:25 AM   #25
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Its the problem with multiple titles and the devalue of secondary title. When the only way you can add value to someone is by making them chamnion, its a waste.

Think of all the WWE title reigns from 1984-1993

Not a single wasted/forgettable reign. All were a big deal. Shit even Sgt Slaughter winning the title as an Iraqi was a big deal.

Then look at 2005 to now. Tons of crap flop reigns that were a waste. Not important.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:26 AM   #26
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I mean look at Ziggler. Finally wins t he big one, jobs out, gets concussed, drops title, now hes back out of the hunt. Hes a face and getting over, but still just a wasted title reign. His status as a face is due to his great performance and his angle with AJ, nothing about the title.
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Old 07-26-2013, 12:48 PM   #27
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Quote:
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I mean look at Ziggler. Finally wins t he big one, jobs out, gets concussed, drops title, now hes back out of the hunt. Hes a face and getting over, but still just a wasted title reign. His status as a face is due to his great performance and his angle with AJ, nothing about the title.
I think the match he lost the title helped make him a convincing face rather than suddenly waking up and siding with Cena one morning just because, he's actually gotten to keep some of his character rather than turning into blandy mcbabyface. I don't think his run was a complete waste either, I don't think it was a success but it wasn't quite an abortion, it helped develop his character even if most of that was as a result of the AJ angle.
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Old 07-26-2013, 03:59 PM   #28
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At this point, not really, not even for the WWE title. Especially not when you compare the last 5 years to the 15+ before. Sure during the Attitude era and even before and after, there were quite a few title changes but 99% of the time they made sense. Until recently, with VERY FEW exceptions, everyone that won a world title was over enough and ready to be a main eventer.

Now we have random under card, out of the blue world title winners to MAKE guys seem like main eventers. Then when it flops, they panic and put the title back on someone like Cena. Thus you get under card guys with 1 or 2 world title wins who are NOT over enough to be main eventers and/or awful, and then guys like Cena, Orton, etc., who are double digit (or close) time world champions.

The real question is, what's the root cause of these problems? I partly blame the shitty writing and booking, the lack of talent on the roster, the downturn in interest in the wrestling in generally, but mostly, I blame Vince. He's either going senile or he's complacent, either way, the blame ultimately lies with him.
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Old 07-26-2013, 04:22 PM   #29
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Lack of talent on the roster? The WWE roster has never had more well-rounded talent from top to bottom. Title reigns don't mean anything because the aura around wrestling is all but gone. When the crowd in Des Moines, Iowa acts like the fans in Philly, there is a sign that wrestling has crossed a bridge they can't go back across. WWE has gotten to where the superstars themselves supercede the storylines. Rock/Cena was more important than how they actually got to the match. The same with all the marquee matchups. The problem with this is that they now struggle to create new emotional connections with the younger talent because there aren't that many engaging storylines outside of the main event. I'd argue that WWE has become so gun shy about "hurting" established guys that nobody is able to break through without being just ungodly good (ie. Dolph, Daniel Bryan). John Cena at this point doesn't need to be protected. It is a lot like the argument in the thread about Daniel Bryan making Cena tap. Cena tapping won't hurt him in the slightest and will make Daniel Bryan look like GOD. Titles will mean something when the build up to a guy finally breaking through and becoming champion is special. The WWE Championship still holds that prestige because it hasn't been passed around like Melina in Batista's basement. In today's world, Austin would have been given the belt before WM13 let alone teasing it out an entire year more. Think about Mick Foley's first win. Fans wanted to see him win more than they wanted to breathe. They waited a bit longer and finally pulled the trigger at the perfect moment and it became an iconic moment in wrestling history.

Wrestling is a long term form of entertainment. We follow these guys careers for years on TV. #1-wwf-fan is right about one thing - there is too much "sameness" and equality among the roster. Instead of having 4 or 5 "levels on the roster, there are 3: The Cena/Punk/Rocks, The Semi-Main Eventers, and then everybody else. There was something magical about seeing Triple H work from IC and Euro titles, to challenging in main events some, and then finally winning the title and becoming the top dog over 5 years. Edge is another great example of a guy who worked through the natural progression and by the time he finally won the WWE Championship it truly felt like he deserved it and belonged. It isn't just about 1 or 2 storylines, but how you book these characters over years.
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:17 PM   #30
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Lack of talent on the roster? The WWE roster has never had more well-rounded talent from top to bottom.
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Wrestling is a long term form of entertainment. We follow these guys careers for years on TV. #1-wwf-fan is right about one thing - there is too much "sameness" and equality among the roster. Instead of having 4 or 5 "levels on the roster, there are 3: The Cena/Punk/Rocks, The Semi-Main Eventers, and then everybody else. There was something magical about seeing Triple H work from IC and Euro titles, to challenging in main events some, and then finally winning the title and becoming the top dog over 5 years. Edge is another great example of a guy who worked through the natural progression and by the time he finally won the WWE Championship it truly felt like he deserved it and belonged. It isn't just about 1 or 2 storylines, but how you book these characters over years.
I guess lack of talent is not quite the correct way to phrase it. I agree in ring talent is not an issue, and sure mic talent can be somewhat subjective, but I do feel like though there's definitely a lack of drive, concern, initiative from a lot of folks on the roster currently. I feel like a lot of guys on the roster now, (not everyone, and maybe not some of the new folks) don't want to work to get to that main event level.

Absolutely there is too much "sameness" both in terms of position on the card, 3 levels instead of 4 or 5, but also in terms of characters and gimmicks. Some of that absolutely has to do with management and writing staffs, but if we're being fair and honest, it also has to do with the guys on the roster. I feel like guys like HHH, Rock, Austin, Taker, Jericho, HBK, Edge, Foley, continually worked and fought, not only to be main eventers, but to move up, improve themselves and the product.

No matter what level they were at, those guys never would have sat around (at least not for too long) waiting on the writing team or management to come up with a gimmick or an interesting storyline. They also would have fought (with management & each other) for story lines, mic time, ring time, etc. If there were stupid or shitty booking plans or writing, they would have argued and fought with management and the writing team to at least try and improve them.

A lack of concern, initiative and willingness to act to change or better themselves and the whole product, by a lot of the roster is what I mean by lack of talent.
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:41 PM   #31
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I feel like guys like HHH, Rock, Austin, Taker, Jericho, HBK, Edge, Foley, continually worked and fought, not only to be main eventers, but to move up, improve themselves and the product.

No matter what level they were at, those guys never would have sat around (at least not for too long) waiting on the writing team or management to come up with a gimmick or an interesting storyline. They also would have fought (with management & each other) for story lines, mic time, ring time, etc. If there were stupid or shitty booking plans or writing, they would have argued and fought with management and the writing team to at least try and improve them.
I think there's a lot of differences between those guys and the boys (and girls) currently on the roster. Today's roster is one of the youngest ones in a LONG time (if ever). That means several things:

1) Today's wrestler has much less in-ring experience.

2) Today's wrestler has much less LIFE experience to draw on when developing characters.

3) Today's wrestler has much less options in places of employment - especially when thinking about the size of the paycheck.


So, understandably, today's wrestler treads a bit lighter when talking to the people who are in positions of power over his/her career.
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Old 07-27-2013, 02:59 PM   #32
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I guess lack of talent is not quite the correct way to phrase it. I agree in ring talent is not an issue, and sure mic talent can be somewhat subjective, but I do feel like though there's definitely a lack of drive, concern, initiative from a lot of folks on the roster currently. I feel like a lot of guys on the roster now, (not everyone, and maybe not some of the new folks) don't want to work to get to that main event level.

Absolutely there is too much "sameness" both in terms of position on the card, 3 levels instead of 4 or 5, but also in terms of characters and gimmicks. Some of that absolutely has to do with management and writing staffs, but if we're being fair and honest, it also has to do with the guys on the roster. I feel like guys like HHH, Rock, Austin, Taker, Jericho, HBK, Edge, Foley, continually worked and fought, not only to be main eventers, but to move up, improve themselves and the product.

No matter what level they were at, those guys never would have sat around (at least not for too long) waiting on the writing team or management to come up with a gimmick or an interesting storyline. They also would have fought (with management & each other) for story lines, mic time, ring time, etc. If there were stupid or shitty booking plans or writing, they would have argued and fought with management and the writing team to at least try and improve them.

A lack of concern, initiative and willingness to act to change or better themselves and the whole product, by a lot of the roster is what I mean by lack of talent.
I don't buy for a second that the guys on today's roster don't want to be bigger/do better/move up/etc.

Guys like Ziggler and Bryan and Cody Rhodes and Punk go out there week in, week out and go "pedal-to-the-metal" in the ring, often taking risks that they don't need to on free TV. Then you have a guy like Ryder who got himself over in spite of creative/booking/management only for them to do so very little with him.

As for lack of initiative, someone already pointed out that back in the day of HBK/HHH/Austin/Rock those guys had options. They could jump to WCW. Also, admittedly from hearsay, you've a 50/50 chance of getting away with getting in Vince's face about the way you're being used. For every Jericho that it worked for, there's probably 4 or 5 guys that got jobbed out for "speaking out of turn".
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:58 PM   #33
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The biggest issue with mic skills on a lot of these guys is that they never get to fucking talk. The Rock didn't start out cutting promos like a GOD when he started, and nobody else has either. You have to do something repeatedly to get better at it. They need to let guys cut promos at every house show and let them cut promos on Main Event, Superstars, and pre-taped shows.
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Old 07-26-2013, 08:24 PM   #34
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The biggest issue with mic skills on a lot of these guys is that they never get to fucking talk. The Rock didn't start out cutting promos like a GOD when he started, and nobody else has either. You have to do something repeatedly to get better at it. They need to let guys cut promos at every house show and let them cut promos on Main Event, Superstars, and pre-taped shows.


While I can understand that guys may be worried about keeping their jobs, if they really care, they also need to have the guts to stand up and say, "I am/want to be great at promos, let me talk!" I would think folks like HHH and Vince would admire and respect that instead of canning them.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:20 PM   #35
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The biggest issue with mic skills on a lot of these guys is that they never get to fucking talk. The Rock didn't start out cutting promos like a GOD when he started, and nobody else has either. You have to do something repeatedly to get better at it. They need to let guys cut promos at every house show and let them cut promos on Main Event, Superstars, and pre-taped shows.
Developmental guys get weekly "Promo Days" where they work on their skills. The problem isnt the lack of CHANCE TO IMPROVE its that they sign guys based on overything BUT promo ability
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Old 07-27-2013, 12:40 AM   #36
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Developmental guys get weekly "Promo Days" where they work on their skills. The problem isnt the lack of CHANCE TO IMPROVE its that they sign guys based on overything BUT promo ability
I could this being the case. However, do we know who's running these promo days or teaching the NXT folks how to cut promos? Not that I want him off my tv anytime soon, but I would think someone like Heyman would be a great person to learn promo skills from.

Of course it also depends on what kind of promo material (scripted or not, etc.) their given to work with. If they get a shitty scripted promo, for a storyline that doesn't make much sense and they have a gimmick that doesn't really reflect even a little who they are, there's only so much they can do with that.
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Old 07-27-2013, 01:49 PM   #37
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I could this being the case. However, do we know who's running these promo days or teaching the NXT folks how to cut promos? Not that I want him off my tv anytime soon, but I would think someone like Heyman would be a great person to learn promo skills from.

Of course it also depends on what kind of promo material (scripted or not, etc.) their given to work with. If they get a shitty scripted promo, for a storyline that doesn't make much sense and they have a gimmick that doesn't really reflect even a little who they are, there's only so much they can do with that.

Pretty sure Dusty Rhodes does it
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Old 07-26-2013, 08:37 PM   #38
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You mean like Zack Ryder did?
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Old 07-27-2013, 03:03 AM   #39
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Are they cutting promos without a script in front of a live crowd? If not, they aren't going to learn how to cut legit wrestling promos. FFS, they don't have to become The Rock in 3 weeks or anything. All you need is to be able to cut a half-ass decent promo to sell your character, match, feud, storyline, etc. If they just can do it, but their ring work makes up for it - give him a manager. I seriously think a lot of guys in WWE could be megaover if they just gave them a manager. Gabriel, Kofi, DiBiase, Yoshi Tatsu immediately comes to mind.
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Old 07-27-2013, 03:14 AM   #40
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I seriously think a lot of guys in WWE could be megaover if they just gave them a manager. Gabriel, Kofi, DiBiase, Yoshi Tatsu immediately comes to mind.
True. If they can't talk but are still good workers, either that or put them in stables or tag teams. Not everybody has to be a great all around singles wrestler or main eventer. Everyone does need to have great feuds, story lines and something to do.
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