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Old 11-17-2013, 04:20 PM   #1
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Do you think The Rock knows...
That his "epic return to the WWE" and his two highly touted, advertised, and highly viewed WrestleMania main events against John Cena were little more than sub-par outings? Do you think he knows that most people consider his matches against Cena to be mediocre at best - his return ultimately a success, but in many ways, ultimately a major disappointment for so many WWE fans? That his lesser-billed WWE Championship matches against CM Punk were far better than either of his shitty, boring, drama-less matches against Cena? Do you think he thinks about the fact that he took Mania spots away from much harder working, more dedicated full-time wrestlers two years running, and then failed to deliver on putting on the "match of a lifetime" against Cena? That his return was ultimately a failure in that it fell short of all expectations? That he failed?

Or do you think he just doesn't give a shit and swims in his piles of money like Scrooge McDuck?

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Old 11-17-2013, 04:24 PM   #2
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it's all about the monaaaaay
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Old 11-17-2013, 04:28 PM   #3
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Fox, go to sleep.
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Old 11-17-2013, 04:31 PM   #4
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This isn't just a stupid thread to knock on The Rock's return. This is an honest question.

Do you guys think The Rock is proud of his return and what he did for those 2 Manias and 3 side PPV's?

He's a third generation professional wrestler. He was under the tutelage of Bret Hart during the early part of his WWE career - the ultimate personification of a "professional wrestler". He KNOWS when he had a good match and when he had an "okay" match. Or at least, I'm sure he used to know it. When he walked out of Summerslam 98 against Triple H, I'm sure he knew they tore the house down. When Mania X-7 ended, he had to know that he and Steve just had their best one-on-one match in their twin careers. After bashing in Mankind's skull at the Rumble, he had to go backstage and know that they just put on a brutal classic that might never be topped.

Did he know he didn't live up to expectations at Manias 28 and 29? Or has his time away from the ring and the constant adulation and sometimes obsession of millions of fans around the world for The Rock The Movie Star caused him to believe that even his shit does not stink? Did he walk backstage, have numerous superstars pat him on his gigantic shoulders and tell him "Great match, Rock! You guys tore the damn house down!", and BELIEVE IT?

I wish I could know. Maybe one day, when he's old and retired and writing his autobiography or giving an interview somewhere, he'll tell us how he really feels about his return. Right now, he would never come out and say he didn't fulfill his own expectations. That's just bad PR for an A-list movie star.
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Old 11-17-2013, 04:41 PM   #5
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Wasn't Mania 28 the highest grossing show of all time, with 29 in second place? Regardless, they made a shit ton of money with Rock headlining. Just because wrestling didn't boom, his matches weren't 5-stars, and Cena didn't turn heel on him, doesn't mean he failed.

The Rock is a huge star and main evented huge shows with current stars. I enjoyed it

Edit: I think he accomplished what he set out to do, and that was to put over Cena, and make everyone money doing so ala what Hogan did for him at 18, but over a longer stretch of time.
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Old 11-17-2013, 05:04 PM   #6
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Wasn't Mania 28 the highest grossing show of all time, with 29 in second place? Regardless, they made a shit ton of money with Rock headlining. Just because wrestling didn't boom, his matches weren't 5-stars, and Cena didn't turn heel on him, doesn't mean he failed.

The Rock is a huge star and main evented huge shows with current stars. I enjoyed it

Edit: I think he accomplished what he set out to do, and that was to put over Cena, and make everyone money doing so ala what Hogan did for him at 18, but over a longer stretch of time.
I already pointed out that his return was ultimately a success - by that I mean a financial success. No one can deny that. I'm talking purely on the matches themselves.
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Old 11-17-2013, 08:13 PM   #7
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Wasn't Mania 28 the highest grossing show of all time, with 29 in second place? Regardless, they made a shit ton of money with Rock headlining. Just because wrestling didn't boom, his matches weren't 5-stars, and Cena didn't turn heel on him, doesn't mean he failed.

The Rock is a huge star and main evented huge shows with current stars. I enjoyed it

Edit: I think he accomplished what he set out to do, and that was to put over Cena, and make everyone money doing so ala what Hogan did for him at 18, but over a longer stretch of time.
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Old 11-17-2013, 04:46 PM   #8
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Who are you speaking for when you make all these statements exactly?
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Old 11-17-2013, 05:07 PM   #9
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It depends on what the Rock values. The Rock/Cena feud that spanned three Wrestlemanias and main evented two was largely successful; there was commercial success, and the booking was perfect even if it wasn't terribly exciting or original. The matches themselves weren't classics but I think in the vast majority of fans' minds they delivered. I thought I wouldn't care about either of them but in the end they drew me in and my expectations were exceeded by a bit. Rock and Cena had very good matched but probably not the best matches the two could have. I attribute this to them being largely established, the Rock having nothing to prove and Cena having little to prove other than the notion that he could hang with the rock. Neither of them "left it all in the ring." They didn't need to tear down the house, they only needed to deliver a solid outing. And they did. I'm sure the Rock knows that both of those matches could have been better, but given that there were other matches on both cards that Rock/Cena was never going to top in terms of a great match, it was probably wise that they didn't kill themselves to outshine everyone else.
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Old 11-17-2013, 05:15 PM   #10
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It depends on what the Rock values. The Rock/Cena feud that spanned three Wrestlemanias and main evented two was largely successful; there was commercial success, and the booking was perfect even if it wasn't terribly exciting or original. The matches themselves weren't classics but I think in the vast majority of fans' minds they delivered. I thought I wouldn't care about either of them but in the end they drew me in and my expectations were exceeded by a bit. Rock and Cena had very good matched but probably not the best matches the two could have. I attribute this to them being largely established, the Rock having nothing to prove and Cena having little to prove other than the notion that he could hang with the rock. Neither of them "left it all in the ring." They didn't need to tear down the house, they only needed to deliver a solid outing. And they did. I'm sure the Rock knows that both of those matches could have been better, but given that there were other matches on both cards that Rock/Cena was never going to top in terms of a great match, it was probably wise that they didn't kill themselves to outshine everyone else.
Thank you for a well thought out and intelligent response.

You make good points, but I can't believe them to be true. What professional athlete goes onto the field for the big one (the Superbowl, the World Cup, the NBA finals - what have you) and doesn't want to put on the performance of a lifetime? Athletes of championship caliber generally have that one thing in common - the desire to be the absolute best. It's generally noted and stated from WWE superstars, past and present, that at Mania, you want to leave it all out there. You want to be at the top of your game and shine. HBK is a master at this - Undertaker has taken this idea to unthinkable levels in the past few years. I know the WrestleMania packages are always chock full of hyperbole, but they all say the same thing: "We work all year long for this night."

I can't believe that Rock, again, a third generation superstar and, at one time, the absolute best in the business, would try and justify, even to himself, a less than amazing performance in the ME of WrestleMania. "I did as well as expected, but what was I going to do when Triple H/Undertaker was on the same card?" No way. That's not a champion's mindset.
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Old 11-17-2013, 05:21 PM   #11
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I can't believe that Rock, again, a third generation superstar and, at one time, the absolute best in the business, would try and justify, even to himself, a less than amazing performance in the ME of WrestleMania. "I did as well as expected, but what was I going to do when Triple H/Undertaker was on the same card?" No way. That's not a champion's mindset.
I'm not really saying that either of them thought that consciously, but on some level it may have affected them. Maybe it has something to due with how the Rock just disappeared the day after and all the weirdness that I don't think was ever really sorted out. I never got the sense that Dwayne's heart was really in it.
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Old 11-17-2013, 05:09 PM   #12
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And did Cena really get elevated from his programs with The Rock? I don't think so. He's the same as he always was. His "aura" has not changed one bit. If Cena beat Hogan at Mania, that might be another story.

And I have to believe that Rock was under a lot of pressure to put on a hell of a show - not just pressure from the millions, but pressure from the locker room. CM Punk was extremely vocal about Rock walking into an "un-earned" WrestleMania main event. He probably felt quite justified when Rock didn't blow the roof off the building with Cena (although the high from that justification was probably quickly nullified when the numbers came in). I bet a lot of the locker room felt the same way. "Rock is coming back and I get why he's got the spot - but he better fucking do something with it!" And he kind of didn't. The matches were mediocre. I can't even rewatch them. I can rewatch Warrior/Hogan and I still love it. Cena/Rock - no.
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Old 11-17-2013, 05:18 PM   #13
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And did Cena really get elevated from his programs with The Rock? I don't think so. He's the same as he always was. His "aura" has not changed one bit. If Cena beat Hogan at Mania, that might be another story.
I don't think so. Regardless of who it was, I don't think the match was about elevating Cena as much as it was giving him something extraordinary on his roster. There was a 2+ year build starting with the back-and-forth before and during the hosting spot at WM27, Cena's loss at WM28, and then his win at WM29. When you're already a top guy there isn't much elevating to be done, the feud was more about "I'm at the top to stay."

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And I have to believe that Rock was under a lot of pressure to put on a hell of a show - not just pressure from the millions, but pressure from the locker room. CM Punk was extremely vocal about Rock walking into an "un-earned" WrestleMania main event. He probably felt quite justified when Rock didn't blow the roof off the building with Cena (although the high from that justification was probably quickly nullified when the numbers came in). I bet a lot of the locker room felt the same way. "Rock is coming back and I get why he's got the spot - but he better fucking do something with it!" And he kind of didn't. The matches were mediocre. I can't even rewatch them. I can rewatch Warrior/Hogan and I still love it. Cena/Rock - no.
I don't necessarily agree with every bit and piece here but it's all pretty valid. I agree about Hogan/Warrior though. In that match it was "the guy we universally love" vs "the new guy that we are coming to universally love." The match was everything it could possibly be and probably a bit more, and Hogan's loss was a shocking ending. Hogan/Rock at WM18 ended up being "The guy we've been loving for the past few years vs HOLY SHIT WE STILL LOVE THIS GUY MORE," which again was all it could be and possesses an emotion that doesn't diminish over time. Cena/Rock was "the guy that the audience is totally divided over" vs "HOLY SHIT NO DOUBT WE STILL TOTALLY LOVE THIS GUY." There was no intrinsic emotion to it. Maybe if Cena's divorce had actually been due to his WM28 loss there may have been something to it.

I'm gonna go watch Hogan/Warrior now.
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Old 11-17-2013, 06:13 PM   #14
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I just couldn't buy the feud. In the end it meant nothing to everyone involved because no one really had anything to lose as both men's legacy had already been cemented/ Personally the one who lost the most in this feud was CM Punk
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Old 11-17-2013, 06:43 PM   #15
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I wonder is The Rock will ever read this thread to know, what the fox say.
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Old 11-17-2013, 07:19 PM   #16
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*What does The Fox say?
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:28 AM   #17
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*What does The Fox say?
0:47
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:14 AM   #18
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No, I do not think the Rock "knows" his return to WWE was sub-par. Mainly because it wasn't. For reasons already explained.

Also because most of the people who were disappointed that his matches with Cena may not have been technicaly masterpieces will still be hyped up and pay to see him come back next year if he choses to do so. So... mission accomplished. He's wrestling's biggest draw.
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:18 AM   #19
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No, I do not think the Rock "knows" his return to WWE was sub-par. He was never a guy known to go out there and put on technical masterpieces. He gets the job done though. He's the biggest draw in wrestling and as "bad" as his first match with Cena may have been to some, it still lead to a shitload of people paying money to see a rematch. So... he didn't fail. That's all I think he cares about.
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:41 AM   #20
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Or do you think he just doesn't give a shit and swims in his piles of money like Scrooge McDuck?
That one. Though Rocky seems to at least enjoy performing most of the time. Can't speak for his last run as I barely saw any of it.

And honestly, the fewer people who give a shit about workrate in this business, the better. People were entertained, money was made, isn't that the basic premise of the business? Even if he's not in it for the money, I doubt he gives a shit if a bunch of smarks knocked off a star or two for not meeting their standards.

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This isn't just a stupid thread to knock on The Rock's return.
So it is a stupid thread to knock on his return, it's just not just one.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:28 AM   #21
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And honestly, the fewer people who give a shit about workrate in this business, the better. People were entertained, money was made, isn't that the basic premise of the business? Even if he's not in it for the money, I doubt he gives a shit if a bunch of smarks knocked off a star or two for not meeting their standards.
The fewer wrestling fans who care about wrestling the better? Dumb.

The basic premise of the business is to grow into a nationally accepted form of entertainment. Dwayne was brought in to boost the product and create a buzz, he did that, but as soon as he left, so did the buzz...no long term plans what so ever, no long term benefit to the WWE. If anything it has left them in this panic mode to match what Dwayne brought to Mania the last 3 years, because, surpise, surprise...Dwayne wont be available for Mania 30 and did NOTHING to build the full time talent ON THE ROSTER while he was there.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:21 AM   #22
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The Rock's return was a complete embarassment to any true wrestling fan. If you have any respect for the business of the WWE and found his return beneficial in ANY way, then you should rethink your fandom.

While 28 and 29 might have been the highest grossing PPVs ever, what happened after? Right back to where they always are in terms of PPV buys. The Rock did NOTHING to benefit the WWE in the long run, and the WWE did nothing to help themselves in the long run.

The Rock vs. Cena was nothing more than a 3 year money grab, and in that sense, I suppose, it worked. To me, thats extremely short sighthed. If Dwaynes goal was to make as much money as HE could in 3 years, than he succeeded, but as a 3rd generation wrestler with the WWE "running through his veins", not caring AT ALL about how the product looks or where it will be headed AFTER HE LEAVES, is an embarassment.

I mentioned he didnt care about the way the product looked and there is no greater example of this than his answer on the Jimmy Kimmel show when Kimmel, extremely saracastically, asked Dwayne: "Why train for your match when you know the outcome? it's fake anyways."? Dwayne's answer? "When I lose its pretty fake, but when I win, it seems very realistic." WHAT?!?! YOU ARE THE WWE CHAMPION?!?!

How about this instead? Dwayne: "I train extremely hard for every movie I do as well, I am handed the script months in advance, should I not train for my films? As the WWE champion, I have every ATHLETE in the WWE coming after me and my belt, I have to stay fit, every match is a struggle mentally and physically...training and being mentally prepared is important in wrestling, movies and life." Done! Your precious image is just fine, and wrestling still looks as respectable as half naked men rolling around on eachother can look.

His original answer is so infuriating I cant put it in to words, how can someone of his pedigree have so much disrespect for the business that his family devoted their lives to building? The guy litterally makes me sick.

This is just as much WWE's fault for the writting and booking as it is Dwayne's. If Truth and Miz win at SS you've helped two guys for the rest of their careers while not doing ANY damage to Dwayne and Cena, and also having a surprise ending to a match where EVERYONE knew what was coming.

Having more matches with Punk, perhaps Punk actually wins one, Dwayne would end it with the upper hand, OF COURSE, but even giving Punk a DQ win would give his character ammunition for the rest of his career. but...NOPE, Dwayne wins. Dwayne always wins. I could go on and on and on with points that are just as infurating, but I feel like driving my head through a wall now, I've gottsta stop.

Everyone shits on Triple H, but the dude has dedicated HIS LIFE to the WWE, and trying, as best he can, to turn it around in the right direction. Whether you agree with him or not at least the effort is there. Dwayne is a whore. A dirty, dirty whore.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:37 AM   #23
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That his "epic return to the WWE" and his two highly touted, advertised, and highly viewed WrestleMania main events against John Cena were little more than sub-par outings? Do you think he knows that most people consider his matches against Cena to be mediocre at best - his return ultimately a success, but in many ways, ultimately a major disappointment for so many WWE fans? That his lesser-billed WWE Championship matches against CM Punk were far better than either of his shitty, boring, drama-less matches against Cena? Do you think he thinks about the fact that he took Mania spots away from much harder working, more dedicated full-time wrestlers two years running, and then failed to deliver on putting on the "match of a lifetime" against Cena? That his return was ultimately a failure in that it fell short of all expectations? That he failed?

Or do you think he just doesn't give a shit and swims in his piles of money like Scrooge McDuck?
It's a business. He made the company a ton of money. Who the fuck cares about workrate or whether Meltzer gave it 4-5 stars.


Asians have 2 inch dicks.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:49 AM   #24
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It's a business. He made the company a ton of money. Who the fuck cares about workrate or whether Meltzer gave it 4-5 stars.


Asians have 2 inch dicks.
He made money for 3 years and burried the rest of the full time talent on the roster to the point that every buy rate is now in the dumps. But thats D-Brys fault right?

Asians do have tiny peckers...
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:56 AM   #25
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Lol how is the Rock, a part timer who appeared less than a dozen times over the last year or so, responsible for the buy rates? Is he on the booking team now?
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Old 11-18-2013, 02:15 AM   #26
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Lol how is the Rock, a part timer who appeared less than a dozen times over the last year or so, responsible for the buy rates? Is he on the booking team now?
The Rock, a part timer who showed up and took the belt off a guy who had it for 434 days after Rock hadn't even stepped in a ring for 10 years.

The Rock, the WWE champion who couldnt even find the time to make it to the go home Raw before the "biggest main event in Wrestlemania history"?

Because for 3 years at the BIGGEST PPV OF THE YEAR, whatever anyone ON THE ACTIVE ROSTER had been doing for that year was put on the backburner so a dude who is never around could show up, win the title that everyone supposedly busts their asses for after not even wrestling for 10 years and main event the PPV that everyone ON THE ACTIVE ROSTER works so hard to get to all year. How is CM Punk ever going to develope into the next big star when his title reign ends because someone who is "more important" shows up and they need an edge to the rematch? The belt was a prop, the most prestigeous belt in wrestling was nothing more than a prop for Dwayne.

I cant believe the same poeple that bitch about Triple H can defend Dwayne's comeback at all.

But its Triple H who burries the roster, you guys are right.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:59 AM   #27
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The Rock brought more eyeballs to the TV screens, and then it was up to the rest of the roster to get those eyeballs hooked on them to where they would stay when The Rock left.
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:10 AM   #28
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The Rock brought more eyeballs to the TV screens
This is true as far as the Wrestlemania aspect went but wasn't there a huge let-down when his tag team effort with Cena at Survivor Series was a flop?
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:59 AM   #29
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I hope you dont own a business. That is the same short-sighted, bullshit booking that burried wCw in the long run. Too much love and money to Hogan, Hall, Nash, Sting, Flair, Savage, Piper, Luger, and ridiculous "celebrities" (Goldberg is the ONLY exception, kinda like Punk) while passing the titles around like hot cakes and leaving their talented under card to rot. Luckily, back then, there was another place to go and we still ended up seeing Benoit, Jericho, Eddie, Big Show and others get an actual career.
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Old 11-18-2013, 02:10 AM   #30
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Fox, are you a WWE employee trying to stir up the IWC about the Rock so he can more easily turn heel for WrestleMania 30?
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:05 AM   #31
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you laughing at the thought of the Rock's return not causing low buyrates in the future shows that you are out of touch or a very one dimensional thinker.

The entire "part time" roster is the cause of the low buyrates. To argue anything else is just ridiculous. How is someone showing up just for the big 4 PPVs and getting thrust into a main event spot NOT taking away a spot from a full timer and making the rest of the roster look inferior? You all say Trips telling D-Bry he's an B+ player is burying, I say part timers showing up and taking spots away from the likes of Punk, Dolph and D-bry is burying.

As a casual fan, the people making or breaking PPV buys, why would they spend money on a PPV when they know the REAL (as WWE makes you believe) talent comes in for Survivor Series, Rumble, Mania and Summerslam? Its a disaster and the sole reason their buyrates are where they are now, they tell us themselves the other PPVs arent as important so why pay for them?

Get it?
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:10 AM   #32
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you laughing at the thought of the Rock's return not causing low buyrates in the future shows that you are out of touch or a very one dimensional thinker.

The entire "part time" roster is the cause of the low buyrates. To argue anything else is just ridiculous.
"Just ridiculous" he says.
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:23 AM   #33
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I bought that Survivor Series.
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Old 11-18-2013, 04:25 AM   #34
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Defend yourself Whitey, seriously dude. I need to know more about the Rock not being responsible for low buy rates.
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Old 11-18-2013, 11:36 AM   #35
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Defend yourself Whitey, seriously dude. I need to know more about the Rock not being responsible for low buy rates.
Like everyone else is saying the Rock brings more attention to the product, he isn't responsible for the booking, the low buy rates are a product of shitty booking, not really sure what else you expect me to say, he's holding back Bo Dallas and that's the real issue here?
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Old 11-18-2013, 06:30 PM   #36
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Like everyone else is saying the Rock brings more attention to the product, he isn't responsible for the booking, the low buy rates are a product of shitty booking
Exactly. And not the product of a guy who brings GREAT buyrates. It's insane that this needs to even be explained. lol
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:42 PM   #37
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Not only is Rock NOT responsible for the low ratings, maybe the shitty booking is the reason he decided not to worry about telling them until late in the day that he was injured and wasn't going to be at the post-WM RAW as scheduled.

I could easily see Rock saying, screw this, the booking and planning is so horrible right now, I've done all I can do for the time being until the booking improves, I've got other obligations, now I've injured myself trying to help out and I don't owe anyone anything.
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Old 11-18-2013, 05:15 AM   #38
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Is it The Rock's fault that Punk, Bryan aren't franchise players, despite what the IWC says? Fantastic wrestlers, but they aren't crossover stars nor ever will be.
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Old 11-18-2013, 05:18 AM   #39
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Old 11-18-2013, 05:30 AM   #40
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It isn't JUST Rock's fault, but when the 4 biggest matches at Mania feature part timers how are the new guys suppose to become crossover stars if they never get a mania moment to build from?

Punk has managed to find his way despite this because he was lucky enough to get a go at Taker last year. Until they are comfortable enough to let Punk/Bryan or anyone else they've groomed, besides Cena, main event a mania, how do you even know if they have the cross over appeal?

BTW, I dont even think Bryan deserves to be in the discussion with Punk. Punk has had HIAC matches with Taker, gone the rounds with Edge and countless other well established guys, beat Jericho at Mania, has wrestled Orton and Rey Mysterio at Mania and has a history of Mania success with the MiTB wins. He is the next logical guy, but they keep trying to develope the next Austin, Rock or Hogan instead of listening to the fans and letting it happen naturally.

It took Austin and Rock YEARS before anyone realised just how much they could cross over into other forms of entertainment.
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