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Old 09-02-2014, 06:23 AM   #1
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Was ECW all it was cracked up to be?
So for this weeks podcast, we're going to look at ECW, and discuss the merits of the product throughout its history, and talk about how much of the stuff was genuine quality, and how much of it was the Heyman illusion. I think it's a pretty interesting topic, given the loyalty amongst hardcores it seemed to have, given the microscope that was always given to the Big Two, and is still given to WWE and TNA today.

As usual, I'll be reading feedback on the show and crediting you accordingly, but I want to get a bit of a gauge on opinions here - did you like the ECW product during the time? How do you feel it looks retrospectively? What periods were best, which ones were worse, how important do you believe it was, and moreover, does it deserve the reputation it had and has to this day?




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Old 09-02-2014, 06:35 AM   #2
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Besides a few stars and having the WWF and WCW makie a hardcore division it did jack squat. This is not to say it was not a awesome product, but in the grand scheme of things it had little impact.
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Old 09-02-2014, 06:39 AM   #3
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I think Raven summed it up the best. ECW wasnt the best product to ever come down the pike. What it was was the best product out there. When yur competition is Doink the Clown and Robocop it doesnt take much.

They were edgey in age where everyone was giving you mickey mouse. Their impact on the industry was mostly positive.
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Old 09-02-2014, 07:25 AM   #4
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The "hardcore" part I could have actually taken or left, what I always liked about it were the interesting characters and stories, stuff I wanted to tune in again and see next week.

Heyman had a knack for being able to make anyone interesting and it made for very watchable TV. Only really started to see a deterioration when they were losing stars too regularly at the end.

They had great champions before that though and very watchable, intriguing feuds
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Old 09-02-2014, 08:05 AM   #5
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Let's see, it forever changed the business and spurred the largest book in history,

Yeah I would think it was all it was cracked up to be
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Old 09-02-2014, 08:13 AM   #6
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ECW had more likeable characters like
Tommy Dreamer
Hardcore Holly
RVD
Paul Heyman
Big Show
CM Punk

Compared to WWE's
Roman Reigns
Dean Ambrose
Daniel Bryan
John Cena

The wrestling was more entertaining in ECW so were the storylines.
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Old 09-02-2014, 08:19 AM   #7
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You need to compare the ECW product to the WWF product that they were going up against not the current.

I feel they brought an edge that the bigger companies emulated. ECW did some pretty innovative stuff for their time and a lot of the current stars are standing on the shoulders of what ECW has done.
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Old 09-02-2014, 09:16 AM   #8
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ECW was the spark that arguably lead to WWE's focus on "adult orientated" content that became the "Attitude Era", and subsequently the most successful period in the history of wrestling.
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Old 09-02-2014, 09:59 AM   #9
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ECW was the spark that arguably lead to WWE's focus on "adult orientated" content that became the "Attitude Era", and subsequently the most successful period in the history of wrestling.
pretty much sums up my opinion as well....
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Old 09-02-2014, 10:02 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hb2k View Post
So for this weeks podcast, we're going to look at ECW, and discuss the merits of the product throughout its history, and talk about how much of the stuff was genuine quality, and how much of it was the Heyman illusion. I think it's a pretty interesting topic, given the loyalty amongst hardcores it seemed to have, given the microscope that was always given to the Big Two, and is still given to WWE and TNA today.

As usual, I'll be reading feedback on the show and crediting you accordingly, but I want to get a bit of a gauge on opinions here - did you like the ECW product during the time? How do you feel it looks retrospectively? What periods were best, which ones were worse, how important do you believe it was, and moreover, does it deserve the reputation it had and has to this day?
Yes. It was hardcore wrestling. It was not cracked up to be big budget product. It was the wrestling equivalent of going to see a bunch of garage bands play at a shitty punk venue. It was an experience.
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Old 09-02-2014, 10:39 AM   #11
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It was more than just "hardcore wrestling," though. "Hardcore Wrestling" existed back with guys like Sputnik Monroe, Harley Race, Ray Stevens, Original Shiek, and Freddie Blassie. The idea of a "Hardcore Division" dates back to Texas and its "Brass Knuckles Division."

No ECW, US audiences wouldn't have gotten their first taste of Lucha Libre as we know it today. Up to that point, most fans knowledge began and ended with Mil Mascaras. The most exciting part of WCW's shows began when Rey, Psychosis, and Juventud hit the scene, paving the way for the rest of the luchadores. Vince wouldn't have made a shit ton of money selling Rey Mysterio masks. Because he wouldn't have known that a Rey Mysterio even existed, nor would anyone else outside of border towns and occasionally the Pacific Northwest.

No ECW, US audience wouldn't have gotten their formal introduction to the guy who brought us one of the biggest moments in the Monday Night Wars. There would be no Y2J chants, because there would be no Y2J.

I'll say it like this. The first ECW match I saw was Tommy Dreamer vs. Vampire Warrior. That same card also had highlights of a Cactus Jack vs. Sandman barbed wire match. The first ECW match that I really dug was a match between Dean Malenko and Eddie Guerrero. Two guys I'd never heard of up to that point wrestling at a pace I'd never seen before. I consider it the match that really got me back into wrestling.

Without ECW, the Monday Night Wars would have been a one-sided affair.
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Old 09-02-2014, 10:55 AM   #12
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ECW PIONEERED HOT LESBIAN ACTION
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Old 09-02-2014, 11:26 AM   #13
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Was ECW's product REALLY that good?

It didn't suck or anything, but Jim Cornette made some pretty good points about it. It got to a point where instead of hitting people with furniture, you hit furniture with people.

Again, it wasn't BAD. But I do think the novelty wore off after a while. Especially towards the end when the roster was basically "Rhino and then everyone else."
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Old 09-02-2014, 12:44 PM   #14
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Vince gave it a brand on his television, so it must have been something significant.
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Old 09-03-2014, 03:26 AM   #15
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Quote:
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Vince gave it a brand on his television, so it must have been something significant.
The original, yes...at first I thought WWE did a great job selling fans on a rebirth of ECW. One Night Stand 2005 was fucking amazing as was 2006, but then those PPVs just became another show on the calendar for them. The first ECW televised event was awful, as was December '06s "December to Dismember", which like the first two ONS shows tried to be an homage and tribute to the original organization, but ended up being a flop thanks to the main event featuring an "Extreme" Elimination Chamber for the ECW Championship.

Over the next roughly two years WWE's version of ECW had some moments of brilliance, but mostly it was a well-intentioned but only moderately well recieved throwback to the original.

As for the original organization I would say definitely yes to the question at hand. I mean, here comes this guy Paul Heyman who was basically unheard of, taking the former Pennsylvania territory known as Eastern Championship Wrestling and turned it into a wildly successful (for a time, anyway) promotion which sold fans on something they didn't even know they wanted: a wrestling promotion which solely focused on hardcore wrestling and "rewriting the rules". For those things Paul Heyman will forever be known as a creative wrestling genius and rightfully so.
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Old 09-02-2014, 02:56 PM   #16
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ECW came along at the right time.

Paul gave us entertaining characters and storylines. the show didn't insult our intelligence like the other two did.

People focus too much on the hardcore style. Guys like Malenko, Scorpio, Benoit, Guerrero, Jericho & the Luchadors were putting on fantastic matches in ECW.

I always found it funny that Lawler would shit on ECW. His own Memphis territory was essentially a 1980's version of ECW.

Hell Lawler even liked piledriving women now and again over in the Memphis territory. that was long before ECW did that.

Eddie Gilbert took the Memphis style and created ECW with it in 1993.

I would certainly say that ECW was for sure all its cracked up to be.
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Old 09-02-2014, 04:00 PM   #17
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Kevin Sullivan summed it up best, It was the circus, if you didn't like one act there was always the next act. It had a decent roster, a nice mixture of experienced talent and newer, it brought in Mexican/Japanese talent in a way other companies didn't at the time, it wasn't all hardcore stuff but they played up that part when it suited. It wasn't all golden but more worked than failed just looking at the talent that got raided constantly.
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Old 09-02-2014, 04:06 PM   #18
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It was great, but it's one of those "you had to be there" to really get it. I went to an ECW show and it was by far the most fun I've had at an event.
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:23 AM   #19
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Quote:
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It was great, but it's one of those "you had to be there" to really get it. I went to an ECW show and it was by far the most fun I've had at an event.
Out of curiosity, where was the show?
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Old 09-04-2014, 12:37 PM   #20
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Out of curiosity, where was the show?
Missasauga Ontario in 2000. Sold out show, drew almost 6000.
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Old 09-05-2014, 03:31 AM   #21
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Quote:
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Missasauga Ontario in 2000. Sold out show, drew almost 6000.
That's awesome - how was the card? One of the common comments on the message boards I asked this question to was that 2000 ECW was the obvious nadir, but really like hearing live perspectives, especially since its positive.
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Old 09-02-2014, 04:41 PM   #22
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I'd say yes but a lot of it doesn't hold up well after all these years. Was both great as an alternative to what WWF and WCW were doing at the time and also influential in helping to shape the Attitude Era.

Only started to really watch ECW when it was on TNN but anything involving RVD usually was the best at the time.
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Old 09-02-2014, 05:04 PM   #23
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Backing up what's already been said, I think ECW's biggest contribution to wrestling was giving fans who were outgrowing the product something they could still be attached to. WWF was pretty much always a cartoon, and the more "legitimate" NWA had morphed into WCW, and at the time was a flimsy imitation of what WWF was doing, so there wasn't much to offer for people who weren't into the wacky gimmicks and whatnot. ECW's appeal was that it wasn't just the angry kid in the room, but the smartest one as well, since it pushed a more 'mature' product and also took jabs at the worn-out conventions of the big two, as well as really pioneered stuff like the worked shoot.

As for whether the product lived up to its appeal, well, yes and no. A lot of the home-grown ECW guys like Sandman and Sabu and New Jack, to be perfectly honest, sucked. I don't even mean from a workrate perspective, but just in being able to do your spots without falling over or accidentally nearly killing someone. However, it did a world of good for guys who were either trying to catch a break in the US (Malenko, Eddie Guerrero, Jericho, Benoit, Mysterio) or guys who had been cast off and were trying to reinvent themselves to become relevant again (Steve Austin, Mick Foley, Terry Funk). And when they eventually made it up into the Big Two, it had a tremendous impact on the larger wrestling world.

I've heard Paul Heyman compare ECW to Nirvana 'destroying' the hair metal scene when they came along, but I don't think that's really true. ECW never did, and never could have, made it as big in the wrestling world as Nirvana did in the music world. I think it's more like one of those lesser known punk or grunge bands that the members of Nirvana listened to in order to make something bigger and better.
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Old 09-02-2014, 05:26 PM   #24
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I'd say yes but a lot of it doesn't hold up well after all these years. Was both great as an alternative to what WWF and WCW were doing at the time and also influential in helping to shape the Attitude Era.

Only started to really watch ECW when it was on TNN but anything involving RVD usually was the best at the time.
Yeah, it's very "of its time", but what isn't?

Go back and watch Raw from 97/98 and you'll find the same thing.
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Old 09-02-2014, 06:28 PM   #25
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I have always felt like if people knew that I only watched wrestling because of my hiddem desire to swallow 2 cold scorpios massive erect manhood no one would want to be around me
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Old 09-02-2014, 06:42 PM   #26
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it was amazing just for the crowd interaction alone
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Old 09-04-2014, 12:36 AM   #27
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The "hardcore" part I could have actually taken or left, what I always liked about it were the interesting characters and stories, stuff I wanted to tune in again and see next week.

Heyman had a knack for being able to make anyone interesting and it made for very watchable TV. Only really started to see a deterioration when they were losing stars too regularly at the end.

They had great champions before that though and very watchable, intriguing feuds
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Was ECW's product REALLY that good?

It didn't suck or anything, but Jim Cornette made some pretty good points about it. It got to a point where instead of hitting people with furniture, you hit furniture with people.

Again, it wasn't BAD. But I do think the novelty wore off after a while. Especially towards the end when the roster was basically "Rhino and then everyone else."

Losing talent was always a detriment, but one of the great things about it was that they could AND WOULD continually build new stars (until the writing was on the wall for the company, that is). It was a place where "the rest" of the guys could get a chance, even if they weren't the glorified bodybuilders WWE wanted, or the established name WCW went after.

And that's it, really... mainly. The FIRST thing everyone jumps to is the hardcore "garbage matches" and try to sum up the entirety of ECW in that. Much like how people now will critique ALL "indy" wrestlers as "doing flippy shit"... and sure, it happens a lot but not all the time, and I'm pretty sure if Jeff Hardy were to head back to WWE, suddenly he'd be in 18 consecutive ladder matches... he's no different that Spotmonkey McKickpads, he just has an exploitalbe name and recognizable face because he was actually backed and marketed by the machine.

It was why Raven was so boring in WWE when he'd wheel a shopping cart full of bullshit down to the ring and litter it with international objects or the abysmal run for Sandman in WCW when he basically... well... couldn't be the fucking Sandman: they wete essentially a characture of what the common perception of ECW was to people who didn't really know the product. Those that tried to break it down to the lowest common denominator and oversimplify it.

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Originally Posted by Razzamajazz View Post
it was amazing just for the crowd interaction alone
That was another thing entirely.

The first time I ever saw an ECW show was an episode of Hardcore TV I caught by accident flipping stations on a Saturday night trying to catch our high school's football "game of the week" cable access rerun.

What I stumbed across was some blonde dude coming down to the ring to Metallica whilst smoking a cig THROUGH a sea of crazed fans (who were singing along) jam packed into what I assume was some dinky pool hall that really wasn't even large enough to be a wrestling venue. The ceiling above where the ring was visibly removed to accomodate people climbing the ropes. Yeah, I learned through the match that this was Sandman. Yes, I learned he could use his "Singapore cane" as he saw fit because screw the rules. I learned later the voice I heard calling the match was one Joey Styles. I never learned the guy Sandman faced... but ALL OF THAT was secondary to the goddamn fans.

Like I said, the venue was like a shoebox, but this had to be something special to have all these target demo 18-34 males jam packed into a dive bar to watch... no.. be a part of this wrestling show. My reaction was "Holy shit! What the fuck is this?! I want to see more of this!"
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Old 09-02-2014, 10:02 PM   #28
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They really did have some great stuff that I would love to see a company like WWE or TNA emulate today.

The long-running TV Championship run of Rob Van Dam - that kind of thing worked because they built him and the title up as something more than just a mid-card title. Think about someone like Dolph Ziggler holding the Intercontinental Championship for over a year and actually defending the thing on a regular basis and having highly competitive matches against other mid-carders. It makes Dolph look great, it makes the title look great, it makes his opponents look great, and it gives the fans something to look forward to aside from whatever it going on in the main event. Instead the IC and US titles are basically just props, passed around month to month, and hardly defended on TV or PPV. It accomplishes nothing.

They also had some great mid-card feuds like Tanaka versus Awesome. Two powerhouses with no storyline - just beating the every loving crap out of each other in, again, highly competitive matches that made both men look great. It didn't detract from the main event stars - it added to the overall card.

And then you had the triple threat feud between Little Guido, Super Crazy and Yoshihiro Tajiri. Again, not about any kind of real feud, just highly competitive matches that got everyone over and made people want to watch. And then when Super Crazy or Tajiri went on to do something else, people wanted to see that, too, because they had built interest in these guys based on those matches.


TNA had this going before with the Joe, Daniels, Styles feud back in 2006 - back when they were gaining steam and gaining fans.


I can't remember the last time WWE had anything even resembling the three examples listed above.
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Old 09-03-2014, 04:03 AM   #29
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To play devil's advocate, because some of the feedback I've gotten elsewhere is a bit more negative on ECW - how do you guys see the balance of the genuine quality, a lot of which has been pointed out above, compared to the stuff that wasn't so strong (criticisms of stuff like Axl Vs. Ian, some of the not so great workers like Sandman and Public Enemy, as well as what is described as a very poor 1998 with the exception of the Heat Wave PPV)?
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Old 09-03-2014, 07:31 AM   #30
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The not so great workers like Sandman, Public Enemy, New Jack, etc. just worked a hardcore style and relied on personality to successfully hide what they couldn't do. Heyman knew what he was doing.
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Old 09-03-2014, 08:13 AM   #31
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Sandman is no worse a worker than Otunga and khali
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Old 09-03-2014, 06:50 PM   #32
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Sandman is no worse a worker than Otunga and khali
I agree with this statement, but Sandman was a hundred times better then them at what he did.

That's the best thing about ECW. Perfect example is Sabu. Sabu not a good talker so let's never have him speak, and he cando his crazy things so just let him do that. Then Sabu was in WWECW for a month at the time and for some reason he had to talk.

Just have guys do what they are good at, and that is simple genius of ECW and Paul Heyman.

I love ECW, and miss it.
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:18 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by McLegend View Post
I agree with this statement, but Sandman was a hundred times better then them at what he did.

That's the best thing about ECW. Perfect example is Sabu. Sabu not a good talker so let's never have him speak, and he cando his crazy things so just let him do that. Then Sabu was in WWECW for a month at the time and for some reason he had to talk.

Just have guys do what they are good at, and that is simple genius of ECW and Paul Heyman.

I love ECW, and miss it.
Contrasted with wwe today where everyone is the same and bland
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Old 09-03-2014, 08:15 AM   #34
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Ecw had a connection with its fans the wwe never will.

They tout this wwe universe and LET THE FANS DECIDE MATCHES but it's all bullshit. Fans are just along for the ride

The fans are part of ecw. If they shit on you, you were done. You had to earn your way with the fans and Heyman took their feedback
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:50 PM   #35
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Paul booked to people's strengths. New Jack wasn't a good wrestler, but he was a lunatic. So, he was booked as a lunatic. Sandman wasn't a good wrestler, but he was a charismatic drunk. So, he was booked as a charismatic drunk.
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Old 09-03-2014, 05:02 PM   #36
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Wasn't one of the Public Enemy like Tiger Mask IV or something in Japan?

911 was over as fuck without ever wrestling, you don't need to be the greatest technical wrestler on the planet if you can connect and get over. A lot of the ECW doesn't hold up past nostalgia but by and large the Attitude Era is the same, outside nostalgia so much is just the drizzling shits. ECW was a niche product but incredibly innovative and influential as a whole in hindsight.
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Old 09-03-2014, 06:35 PM   #37
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I have an odd relationship with ECW. I never liked it when it was around, it struck me as a bunch of guys being loud and obnoxious to overcompensate for not being good enough for the WWF. I saw a good bit of it in college because my brain-dead roommate used to borrow some of the tapes that circulated our dorm like porn, and it never appealed to me at all.

Now, years later, I admire what Paul was able to do. He basically turned water into wine when it came to the wrestling business; taking something that should have had no chance to succeed and building an essential part of wrestling history out of it. I enjoy watching retrospectives and look-back pieces on ECW, and I acknowledge that the landscape of wrestling would be entirely different without it, but I personally was never a huge fan if its actual product. The only real ECW creations I was ever way into were Bubba Ray, Devon, Spike, and Stevie Richards.
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Old 09-03-2014, 06:42 PM   #38
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I've also moved from grudging respect to genuine admiration of Heyman since his work with Lesnar and Punk over the past few years and listening to his stints on Austin and Jericho's podcasts.
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Old 09-04-2014, 12:28 AM   #39
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You guys sound like you are all ready to get ready to head off to Brie and Rivendell.
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Old 09-04-2014, 03:09 PM   #40
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Without ECW we wouldn't have many very talented people in the wrestling industry nor would the Attitude Era have happened meaning no SCSA, Rock, Mr. McMahon, etc. So, yes, ECW was all it was cracked up to be.
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