Does anybody else think that Bret was in the wrong for Montreal.

[Nark Order]

I know this has been brought up probably more than any other topic in the history of this forum but since alot of attention has gone to the incident lately, I thought this would be appropriate to bring up. Everybody always goes on and on about how Vince screwed Bret and that it was a shitty thing to do ...blah blah blah. Wait a sec though. Correct me if I'm wrong but part of what started the situation is that Bret refused to job to Michaels for the belt before he left off to WCW. The way I see it, Bret never really had the right to refuse to lose to Michaels in the first place. Whether he hated the guy or not, this seems like an extremely unprofessional thing to do. Especially taking into consideration that it wasn't going to matter anyway once he left off to WCW. That put Vince in a tough spot as far as booking goes. The match was already set up. I say Vince did what he had to do due to the fact that he was dealing with a very stubborn worker. I most likely would've done something similar. Alot of people will say 'oh, it didn't matter what Vince thought to Bret cause he was leaving. bla, blah blah.'. In any other line of work, you are an active contributing employee until your very last day of work. The fact that he refused to do what the boss told him out of dislike for his opponent shows that he didn't care what state he left the company in after his departure. If Bret didn't care about the WWF or Vince then why should Vince have cared about him?

Just the way I see it. Thoughts?

[The Naitch]

Bret fucking Hart screwed Bret fucking Hart

[Cool King]

I agree with what has been said up to this point in time.

Maybe I will further my agreement with the other members of this forum that agree with Mr. Deadlyheaven, but there will be some people who will disagree with what he has said.

That's me trying to sound smart BTW. I'll just say it the normal way.

Yes, Bret was unprofessional and Vince had no choice. Bret Screwed Bret.

[Thriller]

Do i think Bret was wrong in what he did? no.Did Vince Screw Bret pretty much. Did Vince do what was right for buisness i have to say yes .

Now i may have some of my facts wrong but

1) I believe Bret had a think on his contract called creative control which let him decide in which direction his character went

2)Bret simply refused to drop the title to Shawn in Montreal and wouldve dropped it the next night on Raw.And even he he didnt want to so what Shawn did the exact same thing during his"I lost my smile" speech as he was slated to drop the belt back to Bret

3)Vince agreed to have the match end in a double DQ therefore went back on his word.

Bret stood up for what he believed and there is no shame for that

[HeartBreakMan2k]

Originally Posted by Thriller 1) I believe Bret had a think on his contract called creative control which let him decide in which direction his character went

Bret had reasonable creative control. Refusing to job the world title to the only guy who logically should win it, simply because you hate the guy isn't reasonable.

Bret should have jobbed. Was Bret screwed? Yes. Do I think it was right? No. Do I think Bret was wrong and brought it on himself regardless? Absolutely.

[St. Jimmy]

some people claim that his years of dedication to the company is what should have allowed him to walk out the way he wanted to.

personally, that kinda bullshit is what makes society idiotic.

if you a wrestler, you should leave putting someone big over.

bret wanted to pull a hogan. =/

[Rob]

For fuck sakes get over it!!!

This is like the 957646 post on this since Montreal.

[Innovator]

Everyone take a note from what HBK said to Vince on Monday


GET OVER IT

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Innovator Everyone take a note from what HBK said to Vince on Monday GET OVER IT

Funny since Michaels himself can't get over it.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Rob Funny since Michaels himself can't get over it.

Not to mention the WWE.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Niether can I, nor will I.

Vince screwed Bret, he didnt even know what he wanted as he kept altering match ideas and so on. He agreed to what Bret stated, he gave Bret reasonable creative control(well deserved mind you) and Bret used it. Too bad for Vince.

So yes Vince screwed over Bret, a man who did everything for that company, hell he even worked a night at survivor series when Dean died.

Besides that fact, HBk flat out told Bret he would not do a job for Bret and extend the same courtesy Bret has done, and said he would have done again for HBK. Once he found that out, Bret refused to do business with a man who didnt know what professionalsim and good business conduct even meant. It was a spit in the face to Bret. And I wouldnt blame him for acting the way he did.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Zen v.W.o. Niether can I, nor will I. Vince screwed Bret, he didnt even know what he wanted as he kept altering match ideas and so on. He agreed to what Bret stated, he gave Bret reasonable creative control(well deserved mind you) and Bret used it. Too bad for Vince. So yes Vince screwed over Bret, a man who did everything for that company, hell he even worked a night at survivor series when Dean died. Besides that fact, HBk flat out told Bret he would not do a job for Bret and extend the same courtesy Bret has done, and said he would have done again for HBK. Once he found that out, Bret refused to do business with a man who didnt know what professionalsim and good business conduct even meant. It was a spit in the face to Bret. And I wouldnt blame him for acting the way he did.

You're Canadian. You can't give a REASON, you have to chant "You screwed Bret!"

[Kane Knight]

...Unless youré Canadian. Then you can harp on it for another 20 years.

[Xero]

NAMT!

(Not another Montreal thread!)

[Y3J]

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 NAMT! (Not another Montreal thread!)

I think these guys need some "closure"

[Kane Knight]

If, by "closure," you mean a boot in the ass, yes.

[Stickman]

Bret was right and wrong in this situation

Vince was right and wrong in this situation.

Both guys did what they felt was necessary. I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" here. They both just fucked up.

[Hitman84]

Originally Posted by Stickman Bret was right and wrong in this situation Vince was right and wrong in this situation. Both guys did what they felt was necessary. I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" here. They both just fucked up.

[hb2k]

It's a lot more complex than Bret didn't want to job and was leaving.

[The One]

Chanting in spite filled rage at a man who did something to someone whom most have porbably never met in person...nor where even fans of him when he did anything other then bitch about being screwed.

Wow, not only a right that Canadians use, but a perfect display of mass iggnorence and trend fallowing.

[Zen v.W.o.]

It's actually only rage for some. Most follow along as it's fun.

I do it because I dont like HBK's character and prefer Bret to him, and feel he did get screwed over.

Besides, when the shows come up north, it just makes things all the more interesting.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Bret said that he WOULD job to Shawn Michaels, but he just didn't want to do it in his home country. I'm not saying that makes matters any better or worse, because there are a lot of cities in Canada, but wasn't there supposed to be a rematch between the two after Survivor Series in which Michaels would take the strap?

[Zen v.W.o.]

Yes, as a matter of fact he stated he would job to him sometime after the SS. The thing is, people seem to forget Bret still had another month left to go on his deal, so there was plenty of time to take the strap off of him in whatever fashion they would have liked. Vince panicked for whatever reason and made a rash decision. Which is why when people worry that a guy like Bret would have taken the title with him into wcw is so preposterous.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Yeah, only a dickhead like Ric Flair would do something like that.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Take the title to another promotion, I mean.

[Anybody Thrilla]

HE WOULD HAVE JOBBED. Just didn't want to do it in Canada. That's not really asking too much, I don't think. Maybe it was. But I don't think so.

[HeartBreakMan2k]

Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla HE WOULD HAVE JOBBED. Just didn't want to do it in Canada. That's not really asking too much, I don't think. Maybe it was. But I don't think so.

Ok, then in the same token if say Kurt Angle didn't want to job to Bret Hart in the US, that would be ok right? Or if Tajiri said he didn't want to job to Hulk Hogan in Asia that would be ok? To me it's the same idea (ok, maybe not the Tajiri example, but the Kurt one is valid). If Shawn refused to job to Bret in the US there would have been 8 million people calling him a dick.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Originally Posted by HeartBreakKid2k Ok, then in the same token if say Kurt Angle didn't want to job to Bret Hart in the US, that would be ok right? Or if Tajiri said he didn't want to job to Hulk Hogan in Asia that would be ok? To me it's the same idea (ok, maybe not the Tajiri example, but the Kurt one is valid). If Shawn refused to job to Bret in the US there would have been 8 million people calling him a dick.

The difference is how often they are in the US and how often they are in Canada. Having shows (especially a PPV) in Canada was something kind of out of the norm for the WWF in 1997. Even though Bret isn't from Montreal, anything in Canada would be the closest he had to a show in his "home town".

If Kurt Angle didn't want to job in the entire United States, that would be ridiculous. If he didn't want to job in Pennsylvania, it wouldn't be so far fetched. Same thing with Tajiri in Asia.

[The One]

The One's Stance

Bret screwed Bret.
Vince tricked Bret.
Michaels out polotiked Bret.

But ultimatly, Bret can't blame anyone but himself for how it all went downed. And it isn't like this was a blind side for Bret. He knew what he was demanding might cause a backlash. He even asked Earl Hebner to promise he wouldn't screw him. So clearly he knew that he was walking on thin ice, he just figured Vince would put their friendship above business. And maybe Bret had done that for years, but Vince owns a fucking company, you don't put friendship above business when your business is not only yours but hundreds of people work for your company...ever. Especially in this biz where time heals all wounds.

[HeartBreakMan2k]

I guess that's the difference then. I respect what you'er saying but at the same time, I don't think you refuse to job period. Regardless of where you're at. If you're told by your boss, to job, then you job. You have the right to disagree, but you still do your job. Vince didn't ask Bret to kiss Shawn's ass on national tv, so it's not like Vince was out to destroy Bret's character or out to humiliate Bret, he was merely doing what was best for HIS company.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by HeartBreakKid2k I guess that's the difference then. I respect what you'er saying but at the same time, I don't think you refuse to job period. Regardless of where you're at. If you're told by your boss, to job, then you job. You have the right to disagree, but you still do your job. Vince didn't ask Bret to kiss Shawn's ass on national tv, so it's not like Vince was out to destroy Bret's character or out to humiliate Bret, he was merely doing what was best for HIS company.

So when given creative control, you don't have the right to turn down match options?

That seems stupid to me.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight So when given creative control, you don't have the right to turn down match options? That seems stupid to me.

Especially when Hulk Hogan has the same deal and point blank refused to put over HBK and Vinnie Mac didn't bat an eyelid,

[Nark Order]

He never had the right to refuse to job to Michaels ANYWHERE. It may be true that he was entitled to certain amounts of creative control while under contract but I would think that his creative control would have been relinquished the minute he quit the company.

[Anybody Thrilla]

You're right in that aspect, but again, Bret DID have creative control. When that was granted to him, Vince knew that something like this could potentially happen. Yes, Vince was his boss, but because of the creative control, it was Bret's right as an employee to decline. If Vince was so paranoid about it, he should have never given him creative control in the first place.

[Nark Order]

Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla You're right in that aspect, but again, Bret DID have creative control. When that was granted to him, Vince knew that something like this could potentially happen. Yes, Vince was his boss, but because of the creative control, it was Bret's right as an employee to decline. If Vince was so paranoid about it, he should have never given him creative control in the first place.

But what I'm saying here is this: Bret leaves the company. Although he still has another month before he goes, Vince has to basically act like Bret isn't there as far as storyline goes. Why build up or care about an angle that won't be there in 2-3 weeks? Once Bret quit, he should have known that all aspects of creative control would leave his hands.

And Bret was trying to force Vince into making a horrible business decision. Either way you put it: Whether Bret didn't want to lose to Michaels at SS or didn't want to lose to him at all.

Scenario #1: Bret doesn't want to lose to Michaels at SS due to personal issues.

How it Screws Vince: There is a major difference between having a title change hands at a PPV and having a title change hands on RAW.

Scenario #2: Bret didn't want to lose to Shawn at all.

How it screws Vince: Michaels was the top player in the game at the time. There was really nobody that could fill his shoes as far as ability, popularity, and lasting appeal. It would've been bad business to put the belt on anybody else at the time.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Originally Posted by deadlyheaven But what I'm saying here is this: Bret leaves the company. Although he still has another month before he goes, Vince has to basically act like Bret isn't there as far as storyline goes.

Why would that have to happen? He could have more build up with Michaels on Raw the whole month (and it's not like it would be forced, seeing as to how they would have just main evented the previous PPV with Bret as the victor) and just culminate the whole thing as the next PPV. In Your House, or whatever the fuck.

[Nark Order]

Furthermore... If you were Vince would you rather had the title change hands on one of the biggest PPVs in a given year or have it change on RAW??

[Anybody Thrilla]

Originally Posted by deadlyheaven Furthermore... If you were Vince would you rather had the title change hands on one of the biggest PPVs in a given year or have it change on RAW??

In the midst of a rating battle with WCW? Maybe it wouldn't have been the worst idea.

But who said it even had to be Raw? If he still had a month on the contract, he likely would have been around until the next PPV. Job there. Shake hands. Go to WCW.

Nobody had to break any monitors, punch anybody, spit on anybody, or screw anybody.

[Just John]

Yeah, but Bret Gave Shawn a hell of a lotta shit backstage WAY before the incident

[HeartBreakMan2k]

I could have sworn it was "reasonable creative control" not total. Refusing to drop the title at a big PPV to the logical challenger doesn't seem reasonable.