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Old 10-26-2008, 05:55 PM   #1
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Thumbs down When WWF/E Started To Suck: A Retrospective Evaluation
2003. A few years prior the WWF had acquired WCW and ECW, and it shook up the roster leading to 2003. It was interesting seeing what WCW or ECW wrestler would appear on WWF television. And that's on top of what I felt was the strongest roster in years. Austin, Goldberg (believe it), Lesner (believe that too), RVD, Booker T, Christian fuckin Cage, Hulk Hogan (still loved the guy), Kurt Angle, Tajiri, and many others. The Smackdown! videogame series best game (to date) was based on this time period. Back then come Hell or high water I have to catch my Raw and Smackdown, weekly, feeling defeated if I had to get my updates via third party report. There was something to watch top to bottom and I loved it. My passion would lead me to news sites so I can learn more about the backstage business at work. TPWW served me well, and I discovered a neat forum there as well.

2008. Not only do I not watch any Raw/SD!/ECW, I just barely care if I go a month without looking up a single update. I'm edging closer and closer to not giving a fuck altogether - which I find saddening. Months ago I tried, I really tried to stomach weekly shows. But unlike 2003, I constantly found myself thinking I had something better to do. I see Snitsky on my TV, and by God he represents everything I hate about the product now. He makes wanna find something else to do. I see the pussification of John Cena, and I feel insulted. I'm guessing I simply out grown the product - but that can't be right, there was things in the Attitude Era I probably shouldn't have been subject to. I learned to balance my backstage knowledge with a child-like enthusiasm required to enjoy 'fake' entertainment, surely I should find a PG version of DX enjoyable, right? Right?



Fuck you, WWE, you fucking suck cock.

And I feel everything went downhill when the 'E' was applied. Fist of all, Vince McMahon loses to a wildlife firm nobody ever heard of. To this day I dislike saying WWE. I understand them embracing the entertainment aspect of their craft, but the gayness began about there. Its like they were liberated, worse and worse decisions were made in regard to expanding audiences and a newer light-hearted generation. Or whatever. The fact is Entertainment began to overshadow the Sports, and it hurt my vision for what WWF was to me.

And the roster management. Under no circumstance does treating your employees like products help. What they produce are the product. You script their actions and they direct it in ring. Too many examples show that when a wrestler, writer, and promoter work together - Superstars are born (remember that title?). When writers control everything, we have John Cena. Nuff said there.

So what's your thoughts on where WWF went sour. Was it a letter E? Politics? Vince's ego? Upstart wrestlers who don't respect the craft? Sound off.

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Old 10-26-2008, 06:17 PM   #2
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WrestleMania 20 was the ending point, for me anyway.

Lesnar left and WWE had just started to go more "Hollywood".

I feel Lesnar leaving was THE point that everything went south. He was clearly the future of the company. Afterward they had to scramble for someone to take his place, first Orton, then Cena and neither could get to Lesnar's level with the overall audience.
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Old 10-27-2008, 12:08 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 View Post
WrestleMania 20 was the ending point, for me anyway.

Lesnar left and WWE had just started to go more "Hollywood".

I feel Lesnar leaving was THE point that everything went south. He was clearly the future of the company. Afterward they had to scramble for someone to take his place, first Orton, then Cena and neither could get to Lesnar's level with the overall audience.
I feel similar. I loved Lesnar and I always marked for Goldberg even during his bad WWE run because he was the first wrestler I ever marked for when I started watching WCW in '98.

But even without them, I was pumped having Benoit and Eddie as champions, seeing the beginning of the JBL character, seeing Cena continue to rise and have a great heated US Title feud with Booker, lots of great shit.

Hell, I marked the fuck out seeing Orton rise above the rest of Evolution and take the belt off Benoit...until they fucking turned him face the next night and rushed something that easily could have been built up for months. That night was probably the moment that gave my faith in WWE a huge hit.
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Old 11-06-2008, 06:35 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 View Post
WrestleMania 20 was the ending point, for me anyway.

Lesnar left and WWE had just started to go more "Hollywood".

I feel Lesnar leaving was THE point that everything went south. He was clearly the future of the company. Afterward they had to scramble for someone to take his place, first Orton, then Cena and neither could get to Lesnar's level with the overall audience.
This is very close to being correct. I still think the next year or so was entertaining. Evolution was still going on for a while and Cena had yet to be invincible vanilla.

Funny sidebar: The wikipedia page for Wrestlemania 20 and 21 have the same picture of Triple H as World Heavyweight Champion.
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Old 11-07-2008, 12:10 AM   #5
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A big part of it, in my belief, was Stone Cold Steve Austin's heel turn in 2001. Yes, it was shocking, and really compelling, but he never had a rival to really push him to the limits. His paranoia made sense, but his new pussy approach didn't. I think that hurt more than what people give it credit for.

Also, in regards to 2001, Booker T and Shane McMahon turning heel was a silly move. Austin was a top heel, and the fans were ready to embrace the WCW Champion as a hero who could hang with him. But no, they ended up on the same side of the alignment coin.

I'd also like to randomly say that I still believe that WrestleMania X-8 should have featured Chris Jericho vs. Rob Van Dam in the main event for the WWF Unidisputed Championship, with Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock and Triple H teaming up to face the nWo in a sub-main event.
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Old 10-26-2008, 06:21 PM   #6
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When Stephanie started booking
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Old 10-27-2008, 07:37 PM   #7
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When Stephanie started booking
Yep. She became head writer in September 2000. The Triple H super-duper-mega-push begins almost to the day. It was bearable at first... Trips went down with an injury and, despite many shortcomings and baffling decisions, some angles/elements of the InVasion story were top-notch. Soon as Trips got back, in early 2002, things went to pot. I'm not blaming HIM personally (although he isn't absolved either), but the two events neatly coincide.

Although really you can trace the tame and uninspiring WWE as we know it today back to the day Titan Sports became WWFE and went public.
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Old 10-26-2008, 06:26 PM   #8
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I like to think Heyman's leaving had an effect as well.
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Old 10-26-2008, 06:53 PM   #9
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I would say wrestling peaked for me probably somewhere between Summerslam 99 and KOTR 99 but it was still good for about 2 years after that, I didn't quite like the invasion but it was an ok feud (Talking bout Angle vs Austin)

I didn't Like it after that ended either: but then the nWo came in follwed by brock lesnar, which pick it up for me even when the nWo left brock carried smackdown. By this time raw was pretty much garbage and I only watched out of habit. Smackdown was interesting Through out Kurt Angles reign as GM. After that was over it started to suck. (It was bad before but still kind of entertaining)

It was getting good again for me when Hassan came in but after he left it sucked again
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Old 10-26-2008, 07:19 PM   #10
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I agree with most of what has been said here.

I think it started going downhill right after the WWF purchased WCW. There are a ton of reasons why, but I'll touch some of the major reasons.

1. Instead of playing off of the WCW / ECW wrestler's popularity, the WWF watered them down and used them to put over their guys. Tazz is a good example, and so is DDP. The DDP that came over from WCW was NOT the same DDP who rose to the top in WCW's glory days.

2. When we finally got our dream WWF vs WCW / ECW match, the roster was all screwed up. The WCW team consisted of two WWF guys (Austin and Kurt Angle) and most of WCW's major stars never made an appearance. Goldberg didn't show up until later on, Sting was smart enough to avoid the mess all together, and Ric Flair didn't show up until later either. That match was a DUD!

3. With the abundance of main eventers, the WWF writers didn't know what to do with them all! They split the shows, and it still wasn't enough. This is when they started making really stupid decisions like getting rid of the Intercontinental title. During that time, many mid-carders missed out on a decent push because there was no mid-card title. Bubba Dudley was actually pretty over at that time.

Overall, it was a huge mess. Here's what they SHOULD have done.

1. Kept WWF, WCW, and ECW seperate entities!!!! (McMahon's ego wouldn't let that happen.) That way you have 3 sets of world, mid-card, and tag team titles. Also, you have titles like the European and the Cruiser Weight.

2. McMahon should have stayed the hell out of the way concerning guys like Heyman and Bischoff. Let them run their product.

3. Have a yearly Pay-Per-View mixing the roster. Think of "Night of Champions."

4. Kept the main eventers OVER as main eventers. Tommy Dreamer, Taz, DDP, Booker T, and so on. That way, when they did face the WWF guys it wouldn't have been so damn obvious on what was going to happen.

I don't care what anyone says. McMahon didn't make wrestling, he ruined it.
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Old 10-26-2008, 07:17 PM   #11
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I think it's pretty safe to say it occured in mid-2001. Of course, some will say it "jumped the shark" sooner, or some may say later since 02 and 03 weren't all that terrible.

I just think that theres a bunch of occurences over the span of 1999-2004 that you could point out as turning points and moves towards decline. It's difficult to choose one specific moment or period in time that the shift occured at.
Weighing it all, and comparing the before and after of any of these big shifts, it's pretty safe to say The Invasion is where the biggest shift occured. It went from grace to mediocrity.
Brock leaving was a big turning point. I agree 100%. It was a tough break and left a negative impact on the promotion/product that's still being felt.

However, it was already "starting to suck" before that. He was a diamond in the rough, but as far as the promotion went the rats were already off the ship. The boom was over, the young talent and attitude era stars were pushed aside for Hogan. Things were going downhill, tons of potential big talents and angles were already misfired, and the template for the new/current WWE was already in action.
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Old 10-26-2008, 07:22 PM   #12
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Hindsight is 20/20 of course. Interestingly enough, people talk about how things are still shitty now, but slightly better.
There's no reason to believe right now that things are moving towards another boom, or even a signifigant upswing. But who knows. Maybe we'll look back in 10 years and say..."Things started to not suck starting with the HHH move to Smackdown"

Doubtful. Just noting the interesting nature of hindsight
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Old 10-26-2008, 07:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
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Hindsight is 20/20 of course. Interestingly enough, people talk about how things are still shitty now, but slightly better.
There's no reason to believe right now that things are moving towards another boom, or even a signifigant upswing. But who knows. Maybe we'll look back in 10 years and say..."Things started to not suck starting with the HHH move to Smackdown"

Doubtful. Just noting the interesting nature of hindsight
I see what you're saying, but I have to disagree. During the attitude era, fore-site was 20/20 as well. When Stone Cold Steve Austin won the King of the Ring and said "I just whipped your ass" it FELT like something big was about to happen. Then, at Wrestlemania 13 when he made his official face turn, his eventual WWF title run was so obvious it was as if it already happened.

When The Rock started acting cockier than ever, referring to himself in the 3rd person, and acting as if he was God's gift to wrestling; we KNEW something was on the horizon.

I can say the same for guys like John Cena and Randy Orton. Back when Cena started tangling with guys like Lesnar, it was pretty clear that he was on his way to the top. When Orton joined Evolution, the same can be said for him.

The problem NOW is that these pushes are not steady. For example, Orton did get a push but then he got pushed down. As soon as he lost to Taker at Wrestlemania 21 he started a downward spiral. Mysterio even got a clean win over him.

With Cena, I think he needed one more heel run before he could be the top face. People would have hated him so much they'd start to enjoy it, and eventually like him.
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Old 10-26-2008, 07:22 PM   #14
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I turned Smackdown on last week, I saw Khali in the ring with some big chick kissing her, I turned Smackdown off, Ive lost all hope.
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:45 PM   #15
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I turned Smackdown on last week, I saw Khali in the ring with some big chick kissing her, I turned Smackdown off, Ive lost all hope.
I feel that way everytime i turn smackdown on these days. This is the least i've ever cared about WWE as a whole, which is abit sad to admit. I would say it started to really suck after 2005.
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Old 10-26-2008, 07:27 PM   #16
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I can pinpoint, for me personally, when WWE started to suck. Basically to the minute:
When Rikishi was revealed as the culprit of the "Who hit Austin?" storyline. That storyline was excellent up until then, and it was really the end of the attitude era. It was the first time in that run that they blew it. It was a big deal since it was wrestling's equivalent to "Who shot JR" on Dallas or "Who shot Mr. Burns" on The Simpsons.
It was also the oppurtunity to create or further some of their budding stars. It could have been huge for Angle or Jericho, and propelled them into super stardom as heels. Even Tazz would have been a logical choice and would have gone over well with the crowds.
Instead they chose poorly and a few weeks later they needed HHH to be written in to bail them out. They failed to realize that Rikishi was popular, but not in a way that would translate to a new heel character. He was a novelty. People wanted to face pop him for giving stink faces and dancing. It ruined a huge payoff storyline, it ruined a chance to propel a new top talent, and it ruined Rikishi's career (which never rebounded, and was working just fine as a uppermidcard face).

Basically, it was a huge jump the shark moment for me. Things sucked for a couple months after that. The first half of 2001 rebounded and was amazing, and then the Invasion was like the second version of the jump the shark. It was very similar to the Who Hit Austin failure. Only multiplied by 100.
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Old 10-26-2008, 07:35 PM   #17
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InVasion was cool in concept, but they took no account into us actually liking the guys they were burying. I still remember when DDP was revealed to be Mrs. Taker's stalker. He got such a pop when he threw up the diamond, but then you come back to your senses like, "what the hell is DDP stalking people for!?" Some of their choices were inspired, like putting RVD over Jeff Hardy in a Hardcore Title match - and for a time embracing Spike Dudley. But InVasion was a hint at things to come.
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Old 10-26-2008, 07:39 PM   #18
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Of course the invasion angle was cool in concept. They took what was sure to be the biggest angle in the history of professional wrestling and threw it away.

It was just destined for greatness. It was like Arnold vs Stallone, or Marvel vs DC, or Mortal Kombat vs Street Fighter, or Freddy vs Jason.

Just shit that writes itself and bleeds dollar bills. They blew it.
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Old 10-26-2008, 07:41 PM   #19
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You can blame XFL too by the way. WWF had a shit ton of money from the boom, and could and would have invested it in the Invasion.
Instead, the XFL flopped and they had to be more careful with their pile of money.
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Old 10-26-2008, 07:46 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
You can blame XFL too by the way. WWF had a shit ton of money from the boom, and could and would have invested it in the Invasion.
Instead, the XFL flopped and they had to be more careful with their pile of money.
XFL =

Ya know, first speculated that XFL was gonna be another form of sports entertainment with scripted outcomes and televised locker room drama. I look back and imagine it failed because people expected that. I still think that would've been interesting.
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Old 10-26-2008, 07:43 PM   #21
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The first Epic Fail in professional wrestling infact.

I would have kept it WWF vs WCW and after a month or two ECW would come in all rebellious and attack any of the two. All out war, an angle that could've lasted a year!

Fuck you Vince. Fuck you very much.
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Old 10-26-2008, 07:46 PM   #22
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The angle should have lasted, I'd say, about a year and a half.

I always vow not to talk about it anymore, but once you get me going I love discussing it.
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Old 10-26-2008, 07:51 PM   #23
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nWo fell apart for similar reasons - oh, and Scott Hall's a dick. Austin vs nWo was awesome for me. I think Austin works best when he's out-numbered, and nWo works best when they're being bullies. An eventual DX vs nWo would've made my decade.
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Old 10-26-2008, 08:22 PM   #24
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nWo fell apart for similar reasons - oh, and Scott Hall's a dick. Austin vs nWo was awesome for me. I think Austin works best when he's out-numbered, and nWo works best when they're being bullies. An eventual DX vs nWo would've made my decade.
Am I the only one that thinks it would have been much more sensible to have Stone Cold fight Hogan at Wrestlemania rather than The Rock? Austin kind of took Hogan's place as the number one guy.
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Old 10-26-2008, 08:24 PM   #25
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No, you're not. I feel exactly the same way.
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Old 10-26-2008, 08:25 PM   #26
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Its debatable which of Austin and Rock carried the company more. I like to think of them as the Superman/Batman of the WWF. Many similarities, much contrast.
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Old 10-26-2008, 08:55 PM   #27
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Hassan..........
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:20 AM   #28
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Quote:
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Its debatable which of Austin and Rock carried the company more. I like to think of them as the Superman/Batman of the WWF. Many similarities, much contrast.
It was clearly Austin. The Rock and all the others took a ride on the wave that Austin got started. They didnt cause it, and it's so much easier to ride high when it's already at a boom.
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Old 10-26-2008, 09:04 PM   #29
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Austin did want to be in that match
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Old 10-27-2008, 12:31 AM   #30
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When they started targetting to kids and killing off the cruiserweights and resorting to a "safe style"
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Old 10-27-2008, 12:40 AM   #31
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Brand extensions, five hours of tv a week to fill, and three hours a month in PPV is the problem. If they scaled SOME of that back, they would be fine(er).

I would say it started to be more bad than good when the brand extensions happened. I've never liked that concept.
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Old 10-27-2008, 12:46 AM   #32
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Longer matches would curb that some.
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Old 10-27-2008, 12:50 AM   #33
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They don't do those anymore.
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Old 10-27-2008, 01:07 AM   #34
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I know. Its another example of WWE's current gayness.
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Old 10-27-2008, 01:13 AM   #35
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It's the change from F to E that did them in. The Invasion angle was poorly done, no doubt about that, but they had a stretch in late 2001-early 2002 (ie Chris Jericho's title run) where it was pretty good. They changed to WWE at the same time that they began the brand split, and it really has never been the same since then.
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Old 10-27-2008, 01:14 AM   #36
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I will say this though. The RAW brand when Eric Bischoff was the GM was not bad at all.
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Old 10-27-2008, 01:28 AM   #37
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I will say this though. The RAW brand when Eric Bischoff was the GM was not bad at all.
True.

But just imagine how much worse it would have been WITHOUT the Bisch.
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Old 10-27-2008, 07:40 AM   #38
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I will say this though. The RAW brand when Eric Bischoff was the GM was not bad at all.
I disagree, HHH stunk that up.
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:31 AM   #39
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Quote:
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I will say this though. The RAW brand when Eric Bischoff was the GM was not bad at all.
Ditto for the SmackDown Six era. No matter how bad the other stuff was, Edge, Rey, Angle, Benoit, and the Guerreros were consistently putting on tremendous matches. Plus, you had Lesnar looking like the second coming (albeit one ten times more talented) of Goldberg. That was an exciting time.
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Old 10-27-2008, 11:15 AM   #40
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Ditto for the SmackDown Six era. No matter how bad the other stuff was, Edge, Rey, Angle, Benoit, and the Guerreros were consistently putting on tremendous matches. Plus, you had Lesnar looking like the second coming (albeit one ten times more talented) of Goldberg. That was an exciting time.
see, here's my problem when I hear things like this. I agree with you 100% that the matches were oustanding back then and some of the best ever. But today, the matches are just as entertaining in my opinion.

But the difference maker between today and even back around that time was the stories and character performances booked around the matches. Character wise, those guys you listed up there were/are in a different league then the guys today as a whole. you can have the match of the nights for a year straight, but it won't mean jack shit if the storylines suck or your character/interviews suck.

I'm not really arguing with you here, loopy, I'm just stating the difference maker is not in the matches, it's in the entertainment side of things.
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