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Old 04-10-2006, 07:47 PM   #1
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I refuse to believe......
Now this thread could have been done before but I couldn't care less, I want new opinions on this.

King of the Ring 1998 - Foley takes a choke slam through the cell. Apparently it was not planned, I don't believe that.

I refuse to believe that this bump was not planned and pre-determined for a number of reasons.

Ok, lets say the roof didn't break (like what we are supposed to believe) then the move would have just looked shit. Was it meant to look good? Foley's feet didn’t even leave the cage. The move would have been pointless and would have gotten no reaction.

The match needed to be brought back into the ring. The bump through the roof was the only way. What, they would have fought on top of the cell then just climbed down, through the door and back into the ring? After such a huge bump earlier this would have just looked shit.

So do you agree, disagree? I cannot believe that this bump was a shock to both men and was not planned.
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Old 04-10-2006, 08:02 PM   #2
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My bet would be that a bump WAS planned through the cell, but it wasn't that one. The match was very short and there was probably a few more minutes on the cell planned after Foley went through.

The Chokeslam looked shitty because it's dangerous up there. Had Taker done a REAL Chokeslam he and Foley could have fallen straight down from the weight. The Cell's roof never was and still isn't flawlessly structured. After all, it's just chain link fencing and piping.

The fact that the Cell broke so perfectly gives me the impression that there WAS a planned spot for the roof, but not the Chokeslam. Possibly a Powerbomb.
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Old 04-10-2006, 08:47 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126
My bet would be that a bump WAS planned through the cell, but it wasn't that one. The match was very short and there was probably a few more minutes on the cell planned after Foley went through.

The Chokeslam looked shitty because it's dangerous up there. Had Taker done a REAL Chokeslam he and Foley could have fallen straight down from the weight. The Cell's roof never was and still isn't flawlessly structured. After all, it's just chain link fencing and piping.

The fact that the Cell broke so perfectly gives me the impression that there WAS a planned spot for the roof, but not the Chokeslam. Possibly a Powerbomb.
Undertaker was still 2 years away from using a Powerbomb.

Foley's feet never left the cage because they couldn't. The fence was already buckling and in his book he says he couldnt jump because of it. He also says that is what saved his life.

Why would Foley lie in his tell all book about the spot not being staged?

HBK was chokeslammed on top of the cage in the first HIAC, but he was much smaller, and that is why the cage didnt break on him.
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Old 04-10-2006, 08:53 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewAllenHanso
Undertaker was still 2 years away from using a Powerbomb.
I KNEW someone would bring that up. It's not like he never used a Powerbomb before the Last Ride.
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Old 04-10-2006, 09:33 PM   #5
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he never did.

And no, it wasn't planned.
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Old 04-11-2006, 01:14 AM   #6
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It wasn't planned.

I see no reason for Foley to lie about it in his book. Especially since it was the "less dramatic" spot. Furthermore, if it was meant to happen, I think they would have moved the chair, so it couldn't have fallen on him.
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Old 04-11-2006, 05:13 AM   #7
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Planned or not, it was probably one of the greatest mark out moments ever.
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Old 04-11-2006, 05:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chavo Classic
Planned or not, it was probably one of the greatest mark out moments ever.
I still love watching that match on the Foley DVD. I reckon its the best hell in a cell match ever.
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Old 04-11-2006, 05:21 AM   #9
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It's not a good match as such. If you were to omit the two huge spots then you'd have a match that wouldn't even be fit for a CZW show. But as a 'hell in the cell' match (aka. spot feast) then it's definately a favourite
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Old 04-11-2006, 06:03 AM   #10
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Exactly. Thats what I meant, as a spot feast.
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Old 04-11-2006, 06:22 AM   #11
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You realised those two words have just opened the door for the return of Sadistic?
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Old 04-11-2006, 06:24 AM   #12
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*Crowd goes wild*
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Old 04-11-2006, 06:26 AM   #13
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*Crowd goes retarded*
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Old 04-11-2006, 08:37 AM   #14
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*crowd starts inbreeding*

We're one step closer to Sadistic...
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Old 04-11-2006, 08:51 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chavo Classic
Planned or not, it was probably one of the greatest mark out moments ever.
Actually the mark out moment for me was just before the spot. Foley had been taken out on a stretcher and the Undertaker was halfway down the cell. Suddenly the camera shows movement on the stretcher and then you see Foley, tooth in his nose and blood in his mouth, walking back towards the cell with a huge grin, as JR screamed "HE'S GOT A SMILE ON HIS FACE!!!".
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Old 04-11-2006, 09:27 AM   #16
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How about instead of saying "it wasn't planned" actually give some reasoning behind your claim.

"The match needed to be brought back into the ring. The bump through the roof was the only way. What, they would have fought on top of the cell then just climbed down, through the door and back into the ring? After such a huge bump earlier this would have just looked shit."

Does anyone have an answer for that?
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Old 04-11-2006, 09:30 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do?
It wasn't planned.

I see no reason for Foley to lie about it in his book. Especially since it was the "less dramatic" spot. Furthermore, if it was meant to happen, I think they would have moved the chair, so it couldn't have fallen on him.
Can you respond to this, Sadistic? Since you're asking for some reasoning, howabout you fucking address the reasoning you were ignoring?
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Old 04-11-2006, 10:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadistic
How about instead of saying "it wasn't planned" actually give some reasoning behind your claim.

"The match needed to be brought back into the ring. The bump through the roof was the only way. What, they would have fought on top of the cell then just climbed down, through the door and back into the ring? After such a huge bump earlier this would have just looked shit."

Does anyone have an answer for that?
Yeah, I did.
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Old 04-11-2006, 11:05 AM   #19
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Does it really matter if it was planned or not?You're not going to find out by discussing it with us are you?
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Old 04-11-2006, 07:55 PM   #20
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Is he really discussing anything?
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Old 04-11-2006, 09:19 PM   #21
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i think it makes sense for it to be planned, I mean, how would they get back in the ring? Does anybody know the "planned" outcome for the match? I mean, almost everything is scripted. It probably wasn't planned but it kind of makes sense if it was.
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Old 04-11-2006, 09:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman
i think it makes sense for it to be planned, I mean, how would they get back in the ring? Does anybody know the "planned" outcome for the match? I mean, almost everything is scripted. It probably wasn't planned but it kind of makes sense if it was.
So if we don't know the outcome, it makes the dangerous eventuality the planned result?

I don't think even Vince has that kind of wanton disregard for his wrestlers.
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Old 04-11-2006, 09:33 PM   #23
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Old 04-12-2006, 12:39 AM   #24
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I've said this before, look at the clip again, you can see the zip ties holding that part of the cage snap off as he went through it.

Plus when they are walking on the top of the cage they totally miss that section of the cell! IMO because they knew it was gimmicked
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Old 04-12-2006, 12:40 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrkCrnvlNja
trrwrestling.tk
And stop fecking shilling!
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Old 04-12-2006, 12:56 AM   #26
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Old 04-12-2006, 01:00 AM   #27
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Funny, I haven't made one CZW joke in here. I must be slipping.















Like Nick Mondo slipping off a scaffold! OH!
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Old 04-12-2006, 01:57 AM   #28
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ZING!

Oh Mondo is now working at my local BlockBusters:



Yes, he's still sick
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Old 04-12-2006, 09:39 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Youell
I've said this before, look at the clip again, you can see the zip ties holding that part of the cage snap off as he went through it.

Plus when they are walking on the top of the cage they totally miss that section of the cell! IMO because they knew it was gimmicked
CONSPIRACY THEORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-12-2006, 10:38 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Youell
I've said this before, look at the clip again, you can see the zip ties holding that part of the cage snap off as he went through it.

Plus when they are walking on the top of the cage they totally miss that section of the cell! IMO because they knew it was gimmicked
I'll rewatch the match if I can find it someday and look for that. I wouldn't be surprised if a bump through the cage was support to happen, but I can't imagine it being done like it was.

First, it looks shitty. If it was a planned bump, and they knew the cage was weak, why in the hell would Foley be standing on it to push off for the chokeslam? Obviously if they knew it was going to happen, they would have known it was weak, so it would have made more sense for Foley to push off a cell panel next to it, and for UT to turn and slam him through the rigged section.

Second, once again, the chair. Why not move the chair? A chair falling from that height could fuck someone up if hit wrong. Plus, it's fall would be unpredicatable. It seems like an uneeded risk they probably would have avoided. Say what you will about the Undertaker and/or Mick, but they aren't stupid, and they know what they're doing in the ring.

Also, there are other ways they could have gotten off the cell. You act like them "climbing down" is so off the wall that it couldn't happen. Match wise, Foley could be beating the shit out of Undertaker, only to have UT keep comign back. When Foley finally thinks he has him, UT sits up. Foley climbs down looking for a better weapon to use against UT.

Likewise, Undertaker could be the living hell out of Foley, eventually decide that Foley has had enough and leave. Then, when UT is halfway up the ramp, Foley staggers to his feet, climbs down, and goes after UT. There are ways around falling through the cell.

And like I said, I don't see why Foley would blatantly lie about the spot not being planned. He is honest about other things, it was the less impressive bump (especially after the first fall. Match wise, it makes no sense to follow up a huge drop like that, with a drop into the ring that doesn't look nearly as bad.) Hell, Foley had to explain in his book why the second fall was more scary for him. More fans will think the first was far more dangerous, and cooler. Progression wise, it doesn't make sense.

Along the same lines, if Foley would have said it was planned, it wouldn't have taken any thing away from the match. It's not like he had to hype the match, or there was another HIAC match coming up that needed hype.
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Old 04-12-2006, 01:19 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do?
I'll rewatch the match if I can find it someday and look for that. I wouldn't be surprised if a bump through the cage was support to happen, but I can't imagine it being done like it was.

First, it looks shitty. If it was a planned bump, and they knew the cage was weak, why in the hell would Foley be standing on it to push off for the chokeslam? Obviously if they knew it was going to happen, they would have known it was weak, so it would have made more sense for Foley to push off a cell panel next to it, and for UT to turn and slam him through the rigged section.

Second, once again, the chair. Why not move the chair? A chair falling from that height could fuck someone up if hit wrong. Plus, it's fall would be unpredicatable. It seems like an uneeded risk they probably would have avoided. Say what you will about the Undertaker and/or Mick, but they aren't stupid, and they know what they're doing in the ring.

Also, there are other ways they could have gotten off the cell. You act like them "climbing down" is so off the wall that it couldn't happen. Match wise, Foley could be beating the shit out of Undertaker, only to have UT keep comign back. When Foley finally thinks he has him, UT sits up. Foley climbs down looking for a better weapon to use against UT.

Likewise, Undertaker could be the living hell out of Foley, eventually decide that Foley has had enough and leave. Then, when UT is halfway up the ramp, Foley staggers to his feet, climbs down, and goes after UT. There are ways around falling through the cell.

And like I said, I don't see why Foley would blatantly lie about the spot not being planned. He is honest about other things, it was the less impressive bump (especially after the first fall. Match wise, it makes no sense to follow up a huge drop like that, with a drop into the ring that doesn't look nearly as bad.) Hell, Foley had to explain in his book why the second fall was more scary for him. More fans will think the first was far more dangerous, and cooler. Progression wise, it doesn't make sense.

Along the same lines, if Foley would have said it was planned, it wouldn't have taken any thing away from the match. It's not like he had to hype the match, or there was another HIAC match coming up that needed hype.
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Old 04-12-2006, 01:37 PM   #32
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I'm going to pop one of my DVDs that has the match in and watch it again. I'll take a screen shot if I notice the wires or anything...
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Old 04-12-2006, 01:41 PM   #33
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I think it was real.
It's worse enough falling through the cell, but then a steel chair falling onto your head...
Thats gotta hurt
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Old 04-12-2006, 01:54 PM   #34
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Watching the spot again it does look staged.

Points of interest...

- You CAN see the zip ties clearly. It's obvious.

- They do seem to avoid that section of the cage.

- It looks like Undertaker drops the chair on that section by mistake. It almost seems like he meant to land it on the other side of one of the middle supports but it slipped. He probably didn't notice it until he was ready to give Foley the move. It's also on the very edge so I don't think Mick was supposed to be chokeslammed onto it.

- Noticing something else (I'm watching the bump over and over) I noticed zip ties on OTHER parts of the cage. It seems that's what they used to hold it together. Screenshot (excuse the crudeness):



Number 1 is the zip ties, number 2 is the "gimmick" section of the cage. So that has nothing to do with the the fall. Number 3 being the clearly censored "F" in the WWF logo.

- Now here's something interesting. When Mick first climbs the cage, he circles the portion of the cage where he takes the bump and looks at it for a second or two.

I'll keep looking, as I haven't watched the whole match yet, but yeah...


Holy fuck, at that last bullet I realized I'm a wrestling geek.
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Old 04-12-2006, 05:45 PM   #35
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Wrestling geek or not, good work!

It was staged indeed. Now why would that fat bastard lie in his book...
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Old 04-12-2006, 06:15 PM   #36
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Foley says it was a shoot, I'm saying it was a shoot. Foley is one of the most honest guys in the business and with the other content in his book, he has ZERO reason to lie about this. He had absolutely nothing to gain by lying. If it was a shoot then HOLY SHIT!! And if it was a work then HOLY SHIT!! Same reaction during the match regardless. If your opinion of it changes because of knowing it was planned or not then you are a tool.
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Old 04-12-2006, 06:22 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob
Foley says it was a shoot, I'm saying it was a shoot. Foley is one of the most honest guys in the business and with the other content in his book, he has ZERO reason to lie about this. He had absolutely nothing to gain by lying. If it was a shoot then HOLY SHIT!! And if it was a work then HOLY SHIT!! Same reaction during the match regardless. If your opinion of it changes because of knowing it was planned or not then you are a tool.
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Old 04-12-2006, 06:34 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob
Foley says it was a shoot, I'm saying it was a shoot. Foley is one of the most honest guys in the business and with the other content in his book, he has ZERO reason to lie about this. He had absolutely nothing to gain by lying. If it was a shoot then HOLY SHIT!! And if it was a work then HOLY SHIT!! Same reaction during the match regardless. If your opinion of it changes because of knowing it was planned or not then you are a tool.
It's completely possible that it WAS rigged to go, but not at that spot. He's not lying if he says THAT wasn't supposed to happen but doesn't mention that there WAS a spot planned, now is it?

It doesn't change my opinion either way BTW...
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Old 04-12-2006, 06:42 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126
It's completely possible that it WAS rigged to go, but not at that spot. He's not lying if he says THAT wasn't supposed to happen but doesn't mention that there WAS a spot planned, now is it?
Though it would have to be pretty different, as Foley's words were fairly explicit IIRC.

Also, the entire match was staged with spots and the like, so how 'round the bend are you looking to go?
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Old 04-12-2006, 07:03 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadistic
Wrestling geek or not, good work!

It was staged indeed. Now why would that fat bastard lie in his book...
So not we're assuming it's staged because they avoided it? Xero pointed out that there were zip ties on OTHER parts of the cage, so the "rigged" section having zip ties means nothing now.

Also, damn Xero, good man, doing the work for us lazy people.
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