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Old 08-04-2006, 07:24 PM   #41
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All right, I'll see you all later tonight when this thread is 12 pages.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:24 PM   #42
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Quote:
At first I was welcome because i thought it had potential.
So they kicked you out too, eh? It's prolly cuz you love John Cena and real ECW fans don't.

Anyway, I laugh at how you claim ECW was all about hardcore wrestling. Just goes to show how ignorant you really were, since they also brough luchador wrestling to the U.S. and featured tons of technical wrestling as well. It's just that their hardcore matches were what got them the most attention, but that doesn't mean that's all they did.

But here you come, spouting about how people like Kurt Angle don't belong, and how Vince should hire the Dudley's back and such. Um... they don't want to come back. Nice try.

And "real stars like New Jack." Yeah. Because when people think ECW, the first five names they think of include New Jack.



You've yet to address anything. You just think you have. But you're a funny guy. So it's quite entertaining when you pop up every month or so and make like a sensationalist tabloid mag.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:27 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermaat
Arnold, you need to MIND THE CONTEXT. Like I said, Lightube matches aren't essentially innovative now, but in the CONTEXT of that topic, I was making an example of a match that is popular these days with the hardcore companies. You lack a point, come back wnen you have one.
My point is that if you were to stand in a barrel of milk while you argue, by the end you would be standing on a block of cheese with as much as you bullshit your way in circles.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:32 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermaat
If all you have to contribute to this thread is this, then please get out. No one wants your immature comments here, it's not funny.
Yeah, take a look in the mirror Vermaat,






























Dumbass
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:37 PM   #45
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Anyway, I laugh at how you claim ECW was all about hardcore wrestling. Just goes to show how ignorant you really were, since they also brough luchador wrestling to the U.S. and featured tons of technical wrestling as well. It's just that their hardcore matches were what got them the most attention, but that doesn't mean that's all they did.

But here you come, spouting about how people like Kurt Angle don't belong, and how Vince should hire the Dudley's back and such. Um... they don't want to come back. Nice try.

And "real stars like New Jack." Yeah. Because when people think ECW, the first five names they think of include New Jack.
Hardcore was the focal point of ECW. Sure, they brough other things to the table, but hardcore was the bread and butter. When people think of ECW, they think of extreme, of Sandman and Dudleys and Dreamer NOT of luchadors and dean malenko. They were there, but they weren't the FOCUS.

New Jack was just thrown in as an example of hardcore that ECW represents.

Also, Dudleys dont want back? If WWE gives them a big enough deal, they'll be over here in no time. WWE just wants to waste money on the great khali (CRAP) instead of getting the rigHt stars for their new brand which they call "hardcore" when it is not.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:45 PM   #46
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Here is something INNOVATIVE...shut the fuck up.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:46 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by JamesSteele
Here is something INNOVATIVE...shut the fuck up.
Excuse me kid, isn't it time for your BEDTIME? Your mom will be pissed if she finds out youre on the computer past your bedtime!
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:47 PM   #48
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No, Verm. WWE has offered the Dudleys (and Rhino and Raven...) a large sum of money to sign with ECW. And they refused. They're happier being big fish in the small pond of TNA.

Now, I'm going to try to play the peacemaker here, because I think there's a fundamental part of "our" argument that you're just not understanding. Hopefully, by my clarifying this, you'll be able to understand where people are coming from, rather than calling them first-graders.

We're not saying that ECW never had hardcore wrestling.
We're not saying that all hardcore wrestling is bad.
We're not saying that CZW isn't hardcore wrestling.

What we're saying is that CZW is bad hardcore wrestling. ECW had good hardcore wrestling. Matches that had psychology and a story that happened to include tables and chairs and canes. CZW is two idiots whacking each other over the head with lighttubes and calling themselves hardcore.

That's where the KKK comparison came in. The KKK are the farthest reach of the Christian Church, in that these are men who pretend to be Christian while performing horrible un-Christian acts. CZW is like the farthest reach of wrestling, in that they pretend to be wrestlers while performing in horrible matches.

ECW had some great hardcore moments, some arguably more brutal than CZW's "best" stuff. The Born To Be Wired match is a great example of this. But ECW also had Rob Van Dam and Jerry Lynn and Lance Storm and Chris Benoit and Super Crazy and Mike Awesome. Guys who could go hardcore, but could also flat-out wrestle. CZW has guys like Nick Mondo and Madman Pondo who couldn't wrestle their way out of a paper bag.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:49 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermaat
Excuse me kid, isn't it time for your BEDTIME? Your mom will be pissed if she finds out youre on the computer past your bedtime!




Shut the fuck up.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:52 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermaat
Hardcore was the focal point of ECW. Sure, they brough other things to the table, but hardcore was the bread and butter. When people think of ECW, they think of extreme, of Sandman and Dudleys and Dreamer NOT of luchadors and dean malenko. They were there, but they weren't the FOCUS.
So how is that much different from now? In your original post, you basically said that the new ECW needs all hardcore all the time. Now you're saying it should focus on hardcore, which is a much more reasonable argument.

But frankly, right now, they already have a mix of hardcore matches and non-hardcore ones.

It's just that they've toned down the hardcore matches because they don't want wrestlers injuring each other or shortening their shelf life as workers in the company. In past arguments, you've referred to that sort of thing as "Vince caring for his workers." Now you want to bust out the chainsaws and have people mutilate each other?

It's things like that that make people call you a dumbass. And you can act high and mighty and above name calling all you like, but the fact that you consistently have holes in your arguments doesn't speak much toward your favor, and the fact that you continue to ignore your own holes and simply brush other people off as being stubborn basically invites you toward insult.

It's amazing you haven't figured this out already, but then again, I've already marked you out as one of those stereotypical Americans who refuse to admit they're wrong and never take responsibility for anything, preferring instead to believe that they're always right and that the world must adhere to them.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:53 PM   #51
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Vermaat, I think we should perhaps address the fact you've completely misunderstood what ECW was.

To the layperson ECW was about 'garbage wrestling', and many were drawn to it by the appeal of violent, no-holds barred wrestling from the likes of New Jack, the Baldies, Cactus Jack and the Pitbulls. However, ECw is better known in the wrestling community for being hardcore.

Now, please don't misinterpret the word 'hardcore' here. I do not refer to 'garbage wrestling', chair shots, broken tables, balcony dives (and in the case of CZW recently) broken lightubes, thumbtacks and water-containers. I refer to the Hardcore attitude. The Hardcore attitude refelected the 'up yours' attitude of the 90s, which as you might know, was replicated to some degree by the WWE.

ECW wasn't about garbage wrestling at all. And many within the industry would detest any similarities being drawn between CZW and ECW. If there was any exisiting federation around today which could be comparable to ECW in the 1990s it'd be ROH. Because at least ROH is thinking outside the box, against the convention of storylines, angles and gimmicks and breaking the mould just like ECW was 10 years ago.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:54 PM   #52
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No, Verm. WWE has offered the Dudleys (and Rhino and Raven...) a large sum of money to sign with ECW. And they refused. They're happier being big fish in the small pond of TNA.
The reason Dudleys left in the first place was because WWE wouldn't give them the money they wanted. If WWE made an offer, it wasn't big enough because no one is going to refuse a big enough offer. The offer was obviously too small.

Quote:
We're not saying that ECW never had hardcore wrestling.
We're not saying that all hardcore wrestling is bad.
We're not saying that CZW isn't hardcore wrestling.

What we're saying is that CZW is bad hardcore wrestling. ECW had good hardcore wrestling. Matches that had psychology and a story that happened to include tables and chairs and canes. CZW is two idiots whacking each other over the head with lighttubes and calling themselves hardcore.

That's where the KKK comparison came in. The KKK are the farthest reach of the Christian Church, in that these are men who pretend to be Christian while performing horrible un-Christian acts. CZW is like the farthest reach of wrestling, in that they pretend to be wrestlers while performing in horrible matches.

ECW had some great hardcore moments, some arguably more brutal than CZW's "best" stuff. The Born To Be Wired match is a great example of this. But ECW also had Rob Van Dam and Jerry Lynn and Lance Storm and Chris Benoit and Super Crazy and Mike Awesome. Guys who could go hardcore, but could also flat-out wrestle. CZW has guys like Nick Mondo and Madman Pondo who couldn't wrestle their way out of a paper bag.
I understand all that, but I disagree. I don't see how CZW is bad hardcore wrestling. Hardcore wrestling is about being hardcore, about over the top gratuitous violence. Hardcore wrestling is about tables, chairs, explosions, lightubes and frying pans. That's why it's "hardcore" and not technical. This could be a matter of taste and that's fine. I'm not going to argue with anyone who says they don't like CZW's hardcore wrestling.

ECW was about Hardcore wrestling just like ECW. To say that there is no similarity between the two is simply wrong.

CZW don't pretend to be wrestlers. That's where you make the same mistake as others. They ARE wrestlers. HARDCORE wrestlers. Not technical wrestlers. HARDCORE wrestlers. Yes, ECW had all those technical wrestlers, but the main FOCUS was Hardcore, it was the image. That's why ECW had barbed wire on it's sign.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:55 PM   #53
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Still haven't gotten my answer.

I'll make it easier for you. Name five ECW matches that you liked.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:56 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermaat
The reason Dudleys left in the first place was because WWE wouldn't give them the money they wanted. If WWE made an offer, it wasn't big enough because no one is going to refuse a big enough offer. The offer was obviously too small.



I understand all that, but I disagree. I don't see how CZW is bad hardcore wrestling. Hardcore wrestling is about being hardcore, about over the top gratuitous violence. Hardcore wrestling is about tables, chairs, explosions, lightubes and frying pans. That's why it's "hardcore" and not technical. This could be a matter of taste and that's fine. I'm not going to argue with anyone who says they don't like CZW's hardcore wrestling.

ECW was about Hardcore wrestling just like ECW. To say that there is no similarity between the two is simply wrong.

CZW don't pretend to be wrestlers. That's where you make the same mistake as others. They ARE wrestlers. HARDCORE wrestlers. Not technical wrestlers. HARDCORE wrestlers. Yes, ECW had all those technical wrestlers, but the main FOCUS was Hardcore, it was the image. That's why ECW had barbed wire on it's sign.
You know what would be HARDCORE and VIOLENT...shut the fuck up.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:57 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermaat
Hardcore wrestling is about tables, chairs, explosions, lightubes and frying pans.
No, No, No, No, No

What you are referring to is garbage wrestling.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:58 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermaat
See the little white square with a green arrow on it? It's called the refresh button, press it because I ALREADY ADRESSED this issue.
You didn't, because you still contradicted yourself. Besides, I'm not going to hit refresh (Which, by the way, is not a little white square on my browser) every ten seconds to see if you've responded. Special as you are...



Quote:
False. KKK and Christians on the whole are not one and the same as the KKK. Ditto for olives and "shades of green". However, CZW by definition is hardcore wrestling. It make no sense for one to say they like hardcore wrestling and bash CZW because CZW's wrestling style is hardcore wrestling.
CZW and hardcore are not synonymous, sorry. You lose.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:58 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermaat
Yes, ECW had all those technical wrestlers, but the main FOCUS was Hardcore, it was the image.
Which ECW events have you watched? The minority, not the majority, of ECW wrestlers were garbage wrestlers.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:59 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermaat
Excuse me kid, isn't it time for your BEDTIME? Your mom will be pissed if she finds out youre on the computer past your bedtime!
Your Mom will be pissed when she finds out you're not using that thesaurus she bought you for Christmas.
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:00 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chavo Classic
Which ECW events have you watched? The minority, not the majority, of ECW wrestlers were garbage wrestlers.
If I'm not gonna get him to name two non-WWE released matches, you aren't going to get that answer.
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:01 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold HamNegger
Your Mom will be pissed when she finds out you're not using that thesaurus she bought you for Christmas.
Actually, he used the word "gratuitous" correctly. I must commend him.
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:02 PM   #61
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I think he's gone anyway. I hope that this is all a big wind-up because Vermaat seems a little too stubborn/naive to be genuine
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:02 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermaat
Excuse me kid, isn't it time for your BEDTIME? Your mom will be pissed if she finds out youre on the computer past your bedtime!
someone give him an obliterating bitch slap
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:09 PM   #63
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Vermaat has just made me love the new ECW.

You know why so many people shit on CZW? It's because "hardcore wrestling" (the bad kind, the kind referred to as "garbage" by most people here) is its focus. Sure, they have guys who have talent working the undercard, but they seem ashamed of this talent.

When I think of ECW, I think of a company which was based on its talent. Something very different from the WWE and WCW. I think of Dean Malenko, Chris Benoit, Lance Storm, Jerry Lynn, Rob Van Dam, Rey Mysterio, Super Crazy, Psicosis, Chris Jericho, Yoshihiro Tajiri, Little Guido, Tracy Smothers and Tony Mamaluke. I'm sorry, but I could give a shit about guys like Tommy Dreamer and The Sandman. I have nothing against them, but their contributions to ECW are extremely overrated.

When Tommy Dreamer and The Sandman probably can't arm-wrestle with their kids anymore, because they are so broken down, you need to do something else to get people interested in your show. Granted, a lot of people are probably angry that the new ECW has rules, but it was always about using those lack of rules to enhance the performances of its talent. Sabu and Rob Van Dam is a great example of this.

Kurt Angle was actually going to be in ECW when he first got started in professional wrestling, so there goes your arguement that he doesn't belong. Angle is also one of the last big stars the WWE has. He helps promote ECW. Oh, and Kurt Angle is a former WWE Hardcore Champion, plus he's had some phenominal "extreme" matches.

By the way, Rob Van Dam didn't "FAIL" as WWE Champion. He made a mistake. John Cena makes one every week when he comes out on the stage running like a retard. Rob Van Dam got caught with drugs, the company did what it needed to do. John Cena, "Lord and Saviour of Professional Wrestling" (according to you and management) has had two WWE Championship reigns, and guess what? Non-wrestling fans don't give a shit. Most wrestling fans don't even give a shit. For a man being groomed as the next Hulk Hogan or Stone Cold Steve Austin, he isn't exactly drawing.

So yeah, final thoughts on the ECW matter:

"ECW was never about hardcore wrestling. The new ECW is different from it, yes, but I feel that has more to do with limitations put on the talent than the lack of "hardcore". I agree with you on the time constraints, but the WWE doesn't control everything like you think they do. Sci-Fi is only willing to give them one hour. It is up to the WWE to make the best of it. So Heat and Velocity for how easily the WWE can fuck that up.

The new ECW would be very similar to the old ECW if they do a few things:

1) Let the talent go at their own pace
2) Remove the disqualification rules, and just have talent use their personal judgment to decide when making a match hardcore is needed.

Oh, and it is not a "FAILURE". It is doing great in the ratings. I don't like it, a lot of others here don't like it, but it is probably going to get renewed as it is. The new ECW has som steps to take before it is truly great, but it can get there without the use of the "WWE Hardcore Division", which was softcore compared to most of ECW's stuff.
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:11 PM   #64
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well said
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:11 PM   #65
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I'm starting to take bets on which poster from casual is behind the Vermaat character. Any takers?
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:11 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126
Actually, he used the word "gratuitous" correctly. I must commend him.
Good point Xero, my post was a FAILURE.
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:16 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermaat
I didn't say they did, but that's because they were a long time ago. Lightube matche is an innovation, but I'm pretty sure old ECW wouldnt be afraid to do some lightube matches. I know it is WWE owned but I was hoping ECW would be at least like the hardcore division which is NOT.

And if u think hardcore is garbage then you shouldn't call yourself a ECW fan!
so lemme get this straight, you basically add a household or warehouse instrument in a match and its innovative? In that case, i surely cannot wait for CZW to bust out the most innovative match of all time, the spoons and masking tape match! OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:19 PM   #68
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That's the next hardcore innovation...loser of the match gets spooned. YES!!!!
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:21 PM   #69
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And we all know, spooning leads to forking!
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:24 PM   #70
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The reason Dudleys left in the first place was because WWE wouldn't give them the money they wanted. If WWE made an offer, it wasn't big enough because no one is going to refuse a big enough offer. The offer was obviously too small.
You do not KNOW this. This is pure SPECULATION. You do not know if it was a BIG enough OFFER or NOT. This is not FACT because you CANNOT PROVE it.


Seriously, how can you be such a huge stickler about wrestling news sites and then go out and blatantly make a biased and opinionated statement by saying it "obviously wasn't a big enough offer"?

LOL. Silly Vermaat.
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:25 PM   #71
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So tell me, how did you feel when ECW folded? Oh wait, you never heard of it back then? I'd suggest you stop telling us original ECW fans that were there when it was originally around what ECW was really about.

Heyman himself has said that ECW wasn't just about being hardcore. Some - a lot was, but at the same some some - a lot of ECW was about everything else. Some of the best wrestlers to wrestle in North America wrestled in ECW. Guys that weren't hardcore like Benoit, Eddie, Rey, Austin, Super Crazy, and so on.

Original ECW fans (And even a lot of fans who didn't see it when it was originaly on) think of luchadores, chairs, high flying, tables, wrestling, the crowd, and so on. Not just hardcore.

You never saw an ECW match when it was originally on. You probably just heard of it just as One Night Stand came about last year.

I'd suggest that you seriously shut the hell up because you really have no idea what ECW was about and should be about, but you'll give me 7 paragraphs, each contradiction the previous on, about how you know what ECW was really about.

Keep digging that hole. How's China?
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:26 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corkscrewed
You do not KNOW this. This is pure SPECULATION. You do not know if it was a BIG enough OFFER or NOT. This is not FACT because you CANNOT PROVE it.
It wasn't on WWE.com.
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:32 PM   #73
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EXACTLY!!!! REST IN PEZ DISPENSERS!!!!!!!! X(
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:33 PM   #74
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Guys, he's gone. We're just arguing with thin air. Lets call time on this catastrophic thread before it reaches 3 pages.
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Old 08-04-2006, 09:04 PM   #75
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[quote=Dorkchop]So tell me, how did you feel when ECW folded? Oh wait, you never heard of it back then? I'd suggest you stop telling us original ECW fans that were there when it was originally around what ECW was really about.[\quote]

But he knows it better than ECW fans, and even Paul E.

Quote:
Keep digging that hole. How's China?
Oh, just that itching I got from Sha...Oh.
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Old 08-04-2006, 09:10 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chavo Classic
Guys, he's gone. We're just arguing with thin air. Lets call time on this catastrophic thread before it reaches 3 pages.
He'll be back when he thinks up a comeback.

It make take a couple weeks...
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Old 08-04-2006, 09:16 PM   #77
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Vermatt is the real winner here for hooking you all in yet again.
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Old 08-04-2006, 09:23 PM   #78
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Fucking with Vermaat is fun. It's hardly hooking anyone in, but if it makes you feel better...
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Old 08-04-2006, 09:25 PM   #79
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Vermaat, why do you still breath?
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Old 08-04-2006, 09:26 PM   #80
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4.0, Why are you still here? I thought we agreed you were just MickieJames' imaginary friend.
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