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Reload this Page An epiphany I just had about Chris Jericho.
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Old 09-06-2007, 11:29 PM   #1
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An epiphany I just had about Chris Jericho.
I was talking with BDC when we realized why it is Jericho has never gotten to that next level. If you were to rate a wrestler using a 1-10 scale on a bell curve in various categories; promos skills, match quality, bring that "big fight" feeling, character development, etc. Chris Jericho is a straight 9 in everything. He's so far beyond most that he's great, but he could never etch himself into greatness. I think that was Jericho's weakness. A jack of all trades, master of none.

Guys like Austin and Hogan have a 10 in character. They can build legendary careers off their characters alone. Nothing else really matters. Guys like Rock can build millions upon millions of fans with his mic skills. Michaels has a very long a storied history of having 10.0 matches. Guys like Triple H have an amazing ability to give a match such a wonderful build up that the match alone becomes worthy of 10s. Jericho, he can only seem to do better than most everyone else, he can't seem to cross that barrier and become a 10 anywhere. He has wonderful matches, promos, atmospheres, and his character has been a delight...BUT...none of it's ever been iconic. I think that's why he's been stuck as a upper midcard guy for most of his career. He just can't become a 10.

(Personal disclaimer: Jericho is one of my top wrestlers of all time, and my personal markishness towards him disagrees with this, but as a logical observer of the industry, this is what I've noticed.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do? View Post
I would have no problem with HBK getting a farewell run with the title before he retires.

With that said though, there is no belt in the industry that HBK could win that would add to his career. HBK's career is built around him being HBK, not winning a bunch of titles.
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Old 09-06-2007, 11:34 PM   #2
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It is true. Jericho isn't alone. I feel that goes the same for guys like Booker T, Mick Foley, and quiet a few others. In fact, it is more important to have a 10 in one field that be plus 8 in all of them. I mean, when you go see a baseball game, what are you really looking for, the guy who can a base hit every game and makes all the defeseve plays, or the guy that every other game smacks the shit of the of ball but is otherwise kept in right outfield to no fuck up too many plays?
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Old 09-06-2007, 11:36 PM   #3
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too short, plain and simple
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Old 09-06-2007, 11:39 PM   #4
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Angle isnt much taller than Jericho.
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:03 AM   #5
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I think it has more to do with the fact that Jericho has never been booked as the #1 guy in the company hence he really don't know how great he can be. When he was "#1" he was playing second fiddle to Stephanie McMahon.

The jury is still out on how good he could be.
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Old 09-07-2007, 02:22 AM   #6
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I was also thinking about how great it would have been if the situation of 2001-2002 was switched between Jericho and Triple H. Right as Jericho was beginning to get massively over as a legit Main Eventer, he has an injury. Yadda yadda yadda, Triple H would have stayed heelishly tweener during the InVasion, then Hunter becomes the first Undisputed Champion. Jericho gets the massive face ovation for his comeback, wins the Rumble, then goes on to take the title off of Triple H in Canada at WrestleMania. Steph would have been in Hunter's corner, Jericho could have continued on with riding the Stephanie is a whore joke. Basically, I think if the situation had been reversed, Jericho would have solidified himself a spot in the Main Event much better than being the guy to unify the belts. Plus the big Face Jericho/Heel Hunter pay of match would have been built up for years. Shit they could have played the clip of Jericho winning the title on Raw over and over again.

Plus, and this is coming from a HUGE Jericholic...it was the wrong time to put the title on Jericho. He was still kind of tweenish, and he didn't have the prestablished credibility to bring the WCW and WWF Titles together. Hunter did however, and would have been a SOLID heel. One of the worst matches in recent memory as far as timing and planning. Pretty ok match itself, but terribly executed angle wise.
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Old 09-07-2007, 03:41 AM   #7
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I'm not sure if it's that Chris Jericho is not capable of being as good as Shawn Michaels in the ring, as good as The Rock on the mic, or just having as much aura as Stone Cold Steve Austin, as it is he hasn't really had the chance to be at the top and show it off. He was over like all shit in 2000, and the fans wanted him to win the WWE Championship. He may have been new, but perhaps the WWE should have done it, and then not aborted it like they did? Who knows where that could have gone?

If Chris Jericho returned, it'd be interesting to see what happened. The guy would obviously be used as a main eventer, and the WWE would be hoping he held the answers to their problems. He'd become the top face overnight (probably even moreso than John Cena). He'd finally have the opportunity to show us whether or not he can be the leader of a show.
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:28 AM   #8
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Alienoid has more credibility than you, ToVo.
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:02 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06
I'm not sure if it's that Chris Jericho is not capable of being as good as Shawn Michaels in the ring, as good as The Rock on the mic, or just having as much aura as Stone Cold Steve Austin, as it is he hasn't really had the chance to be at the top and show it off. He was over like all shit in 2000, and the fans wanted him to win the WWE Championship. He may have been new, but perhaps the WWE should have done it, and then not aborted it like they did? Who knows where that could have gone?

If Chris Jericho returned, it'd be interesting to see what happened. The guy would obviously be used as a main eventer, and the WWE would be hoping he held the answers to their problems. He'd become the top face overnight (probably even moreso than John Cena). He'd finally have the opportunity to show us whether or not he can be the leader of a show.
People constantly say that Jericho never had the chance. He was only given 3 seconds here, 5 seconds there in the mainevent. He gets just as much time as Booker T ever gets, and Booker remains over constantly with the crappiest of gimmick. While Booker makes lemonade out of the lemons, jericho just kind plays with them then gets lazy.
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:38 AM   #10
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BOOKER?! Now, I'm a huge Booker fan, but all Booker ever seems to do when things don't go his way is bring up the possibility of retirement.
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:37 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
People constantly say that Jericho never had the chance. He was only given 3 seconds here, 5 seconds there in the mainevent. He gets just as much time as Booker T ever gets, and Booker remains over constantly with the crappiest of gimmick. While Booker makes lemonade out of the lemons, jericho just kind plays with them then gets lazy.
I'm trying to think of a time Jericho "got lazy."

Or stopped being over.

Booker keeps threatening to quit, like Pepsi Man said, and he's spent a lot of his career phoning it in. I know you have a fetish for really shitty gimmicks, but do you ever stop lying to yourself?
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:37 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepsi Man
BOOKER?! Now, I'm a huge Booker fan, but all Booker ever seems to do when things don't go his way is bring up the possibility of retirement.
Yeah maybe, but it never seems to affect his performance.
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:40 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by DarthTedious
Yeah maybe, but it never seems to affect his performance.
Matter of opinion.
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepsi Man
Matter of opinion.
At what point has Booker's performance ever fallen off in conjunction with backstage dissatisfaction?
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthTedious
At what point has Booker's performance ever fallen off in conjunction with backstage dissatisfaction?
I don't keep up with these things, but frankly, I don't recall Jericho's work leading to "backstage dissatisfaction" either. I know what I see in the ring, though.
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:03 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
I'm trying to think of a time Jericho "got lazy."

Or stopped being over.

Booker keeps threatening to quit, like Pepsi Man said, and he's spent a lot of his career phoning it in. I know you have a fetish for really shitty gimmicks, but do you ever stop lying to yourself?
At the end of his career with WWE, Jericho completely phoned it in. Hell, have the time he had his agent do phoning.

And i don't lie to myself, I just like hacking people off.

Long story short, for whatever reason, Booker T, Jericho and plenty of others just never had the special little something to break into the top tiers of wrestling, or stay there or whatever.
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:27 PM   #17
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I think Jericho was held down. He coulda been huge.
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:30 PM   #18
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I see how he was held down, but at the same time, I didn't ever see him try to fight back.
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Old 09-07-2007, 02:44 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
I see how he was held down, but at the same time, I didn't ever see him try to fight back.
Do you see other guys fight back? We have no clue what goes on behind the scenes.
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Old 09-07-2007, 03:02 PM   #20
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Don't get me wrong, I like Jericho, and want to see him come back. But I've never been convinced that he is as great as the internet makes him out too be.
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Old 09-07-2007, 03:29 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
Don't get me wrong, I like Jericho, and want to see him come back. But I've never been convinced that he is as great as the internet makes him out too be.

He's no Kevin Nash, that's for sure.
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:44 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
People constantly say that Jericho never had the chance. He was only given 3 seconds here, 5 seconds there in the mainevent. He gets just as much time as Booker T ever gets, and Booker remains over constantly with the crappiest of gimmick. While Booker makes lemonade out of the lemons, jericho just kind plays with them then gets lazy.
Chris Jericho gets lazy? There was a period when he wasn't phenomenal, but I don't think I'd call him lazy. The man always did his best with whatever character he was given. Plus, he was always over. Who are you to be talking about lazy, anyway? There was a period where Kevin Nash was lazy. It was called his career.

I understand that a lot of people find the "he never got a chance" argument evasive, but it's the same thing for Chris Jericho as it was Rob Van Dam. When the guy was at the peak of his popularity, the WWE held him back. I think what people mean (it's certainly what I mean), is that Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock were used for their popularity. Chris Jericho was used despite it. I'm not saying he would have been as big, I don't think he would have been, but I think you should be analysing Chris Jericho's drawing power in his abilities, but rather his circumstances.

I think Tovo took too many points off Jericho, and that the reason he wasn't as big as he could have been, wasn't because he wasn't good enough, but for other reasons.
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:53 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthTedious
At what point has Booker's performance ever fallen off in conjunction with backstage dissatisfaction?
Now, I love Booker, but this is just me meeting you argument. Personally, I thought Booker T was boring during the same period that Chris Jericho was boring. This was the era of Triple H ruling RAW, not jobbing to Booker when he should have, and Booker's pointless runs as heels (I never liked the Booker T character as a heel, although he did do a pretty good job in his stuff with Goldust). Booker T's Best of Five Series with John Cena was also pretty horrible. It was when I really started to become sick of John Cena (and some other people did, too). I'm not holding it against Booker, but if anything, he has more marks against him than Jericho.

As KK said, I cannot think of a time when Jericho got "lazy" or wasn't over. I can't think of any. There were times when Jericho wasn't the greatest thing going on television (his run with the evil goatee during 2002 after the WWE forgot about him post-title run, but decided to keep him heel with no direction), but that was more, as stated, his direction.

One thing Stone Cold Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan or The Rock never lacked was direction. Vince had dollar signs in his eyes when he looked at them, and shows were built around their very existence. Chris Jericho (or Booker T, for that matter) never really had that honor. While I can get why you'd say that the held down excuse isn't a great one, because he was a three-time World Champion, and he didn't make a name for himself regardless of what was against him, there were periods there when Jericho was over as all rover. I never saw it when it happened, but there was apparently a promo with The Rock and Chris Jericho, and the fans were going ape shit for it. He was right up there in 2000, but the closest him came to getting a main event push was beating Triple H, then having his win reversed. If that led somewhere, great, but all it really did was give Triple H an excuse to beat Jericho in a Last Man Standing Match, I believe.
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Old 09-08-2007, 10:22 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06
Now, I love Booker, but this is just me meeting you argument. Personally, I thought Booker T was boring during the same period that Chris Jericho was boring. This was the era of Triple H ruling RAW, not jobbing to Booker when he should have, and Booker's pointless runs as heels (I never liked the Booker T character as a heel, although he did do a pretty good job in his stuff with Goldust). Booker T's Best of Five Series with John Cena was also pretty horrible. It was when I really started to become sick of John Cena (and some other people did, too). I'm not holding it against Booker, but if anything, he has more marks against him than Jericho.

As KK said, I cannot think of a time when Jericho got "lazy" or wasn't over. I can't think of any. There were times when Jericho wasn't the greatest thing going on television (his run with the evil goatee during 2002 after the WWE forgot about him post-title run, but decided to keep him heel with no direction), but that was more, as stated, his direction.

One thing Stone Cold Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan or The Rock never lacked was direction. Vince had dollar signs in his eyes when he looked at them, and shows were built around their very existence. Chris Jericho (or Booker T, for that matter) never really had that honor. While I can get why you'd say that the held down excuse isn't a great one, because he was a three-time World Champion, and he didn't make a name for himself regardless of what was against him, there were periods there when Jericho was over as all rover. I never saw it when it happened, but there was apparently a promo with The Rock and Chris Jericho, and the fans were going ape shit for it. He was right up there in 2000, but the closest him came to getting a main event push was beating Triple H, then having his win reversed. If that led somewhere, great, but all it really did was give Triple H an excuse to beat Jericho in a Last Man Standing Match, I believe.
That is because you refuse to remember when Jericho got lazy. Again. I like Jericho, and want him to come back. I just doubt he is going to make the impact everyone thinks he will. Now if he does, I will mark out like a little bitch.
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Old 09-08-2007, 10:37 AM   #25
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He's no Kevin Nash, that's for sure.
Mostly because he's not a worthless, boring fuck.
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Old 09-08-2007, 10:42 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
That is because you refuse to remember when Jericho got lazy. Again. I like Jericho, and want him to come back. I just doubt he is going to make the impact everyone thinks he will. Now if he does, I will mark out like a little bitch.
Because Jericho never did get lazy.
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Old 09-08-2007, 10:49 AM   #27
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Someone said Angle wasn't much bigger than Jericho, in reply to my "too short, plain and simple" comment. Well Angle was taller, Angle was shaplier (nevermind now but even before) He was an Olympic champ. and was marketed as such. Can't really compare them.
Jericho's physique is rather 'blah', he's not cut, he's short and wears platform wrestling boots. To me, Jericho is one of my favourites, but I understand (knowing WWE's pension for Bigger more Muscular guys) why he was never a longterm maineventer.
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Old 09-08-2007, 11:19 AM   #28
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I agree, Jericho should juice up before he comes back.
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:12 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
Don't get me wrong, I like Jericho, and want to see him come back. But I've never been convinced that he is as great as the internet makes him out too be.
He very well might be overrated, but he was still like 3 million times better then HHH espically at the WM18 period.

It's cause hes not one of Vince's creations is probably the biggest reason why he didn't get to the next level. Even though he definitely deserved it.
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Old 09-08-2007, 01:14 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YOUR Hero
Someone said Angle wasn't much bigger than Jericho, in reply to my "too short, plain and simple" comment. Well Angle was taller, Angle was shaplier (nevermind now but even before) He was an Olympic champ. and was marketed as such. Can't really compare them.
Jericho's physique is rather 'blah', he's not cut, he's short and wears platform wrestling boots. To me, Jericho is one of my favourites, but I understand (knowing WWE's pension for Bigger more Muscular guys) why he was never a longterm maineventer.
Pretty much. Angle's a bit taller, he's cut, and he's juiced up. Not to mention the pedigree of Olympic Gold.

Jericho has never been the pinnacle of fitness, he's shorter, and he's a Canadian who can speak well. That's about it.
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Old 09-08-2007, 01:19 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by legend
He very well might be overrated, but he was still like 3 million times better then HHH espically at the WM18 period.
He probably also draws better on a consistant basis.
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Old 09-08-2007, 07:33 PM   #32
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Jericho's career, just like many WWE stars who were not "born" in the WWF (Booker T and RVD being the best two examples), is a simple story of opportunity not taken.

The Rock and Stone Cold were opportunities taken. Does either of them have better mic skills or entertainment value than Jericho? Hardly. Are either of them better in-ring workers? Far from.

Did they get the feuds of a lifetime that made them stars? Absolutely they did. When Stone Cold beat Bret Hart into KO submission at WrestleMania 13, he became a superstar. When Vince McMahon realized his potential, he capitalized upon it, and focused the entire company on him, making Stone Cold Steve Austin a Megastar.

When The Rock's ovations just kept getting bigger and bigger, McMahon saw the opportunity he had in this young superstar, who just main evented his first WrestleMania against the biggest star of the company (Austin), and turned him into a super-face after Mania 15, put him on equal status with Stone Cold all the way until WrestleMania 16, where he main evented the show. Even with Austin gone, McMahon had a new top babyface who was arguable more popular than Austin, who continued to be his biggest draw against guys like Triple H and Benoit for the rest of the year. These steps made him a Megastar.


Chris Jericho was ready to be the WWF Champion when he won the title against HHH in the "it never happened" match on RAW. Despite the massive pop he got when he won the belt, and his obvious popularity with WWF fans, Jericho was tossed back into the InterContinental Title picture, and then lost a match to Triple H at a PPV a couple of months after, and would then spend the rest of 2000 feuding with mid-carders X-Pac and Kane.

The point of this "career development"? To show Jericho and his fans that he is NOT on the same level as a guy like Triple H, or his counterparts; The Rock and Stone Cold. Not until December of 2001 would Jericho win the WWF Championship, and he was made to look like a punk bitch for his entire run, once again jobbing to Triple H to end the reign. He would job to Hunter again at 2002's Judgment Day, after which he floated in the Intercontinental Title picture and the World Tag Title picture with Christian.

Despite his impressive match with HBK at WrestleMania 19, great promos, huge reactions to his matches and entrances, and a memorable "RAW IS JERICHO" when he was given the GM position for the night, Chris Jericho would not hold another World Title before his departure from the WWE in August of 2005.


Can Jericho EVER become the star he could have been back in 2000? No, I don't think so. The train is long gone, and Jericho's time is over.
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Old 09-08-2007, 07:42 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
The Rock and Stone Cold were opportunities taken. Does either of them have better mic skills or entertainment value than Jericho? Hardly.
Now I would say that this statement is actually quite arguable, and this is coming from someone that likes Jericho a LOT better than both of the other two mentioned...

and it was Bret beating Austin, knocking him out. Austin DID get put over in that match, by refusing to submit, however.
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Old 09-08-2007, 08:08 PM   #34
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Shit. I meant Hart putting Austin into KO Submission. My bad.
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Old 09-08-2007, 08:09 PM   #35
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Shit. I meant Hart putting Austin into KO Submission. My bad.
I and probably anyone that saw the match knew what you meant, but just for those that did not.
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:09 AM   #36
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I agree with Fox. That's just the way I see it. Jericho should have been capitalized on in 2000, but he wasn't. Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock always had upwards mobility. They tried to mimic it with Chris Jericho, by having him win IC Title after IC Title, but by then things had changed, wrestling had boomed again, and what people wanted was a very "now, now, now" atmosphere. It was the Attitude era, and things were crazy. It should be the John Cenas and Randy Ortons that are lingering in the mid-card, gaining experience, and stewing for a while, but that's just my opinion.

I disagree about one thing, though. I'm not going to say he will be, but I think if Jericho returned and immediately took to the main event, and was put over as a big deal, I think that he would regain any status he once held in the WWE with the fans. He might not boom wrestling, but I think he can be its current biggest star.
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:45 PM   #37
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I agree with you on that to an extent. Jericho would be a HUGE asset to the WWE right now, no matter what brand they stuck him on. He's a charismatic star with tons of in-ring capability.

The problem is that the fans who were around and loved him in 2000-2002, about 25% of those fans are now gone. About 20% of the new fanbase is all about the Randy Orton's, Batista's and John Cena's of the "new WWE." Would they really buy into Jericho as a top star? I have my doubts.
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Old 09-10-2007, 04:23 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Fox
I agree with you on that to an extent. Jericho would be a HUGE asset to the WWE right now, no matter what brand they stuck him on. He's a charismatic star with tons of in-ring capability.

The problem is that the fans who were around and loved him in 2000-2002, about 25% of those fans are now gone. About 20% of the new fanbase is all about the Randy Orton's, Batista's and John Cena's of the "new WWE." Would they really buy into Jericho as a top star? I have my doubts.
I’m sure that the majority of people who consider themselves to have been wrestling fans for at least the past 10 years would buy into it, if it were done properly. However, the "n00bs" to the wrestling scene that have only been around a year or 2 would have to develop a sense of appreciation for everything that jericho is, a process that would undoubtedly take several years.
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