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Old 04-03-2004, 04:27 PM   #1
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QUESTION - Would you like to see Shawn Michaels replace Ric Flair in Evolution?
QUESTION - Would you like to see Shawn Michaels replace Ric Flair in Evolution?

Here's what I'm thinking: Maybe at Backlash or something, have Ric Flair accidently cause Triple H to lose. Triple H then gets pinned by Benoit (flying headbutt). The next night on Raw Triple H, Orton, and Batista beat the crap out of Ric Flair. This sets up an Orton/Flair match for the next PPV (where Orton goes over).

Meanwhile, Triple H and Shawn Michaels have a one-on-one match to see who gets to face Chris Benoit at the next PPV. Triple H wins cleanly after a hard fought battle.

At the next PPV, Trips and Benoit are fighting, when HBK makes his way down to the ring. People think he's going to hit Triple H, but he sweet chin's Benoit! Trips gets the 1...2...3. to become World champ again.

HBK raises Triple H's hand after the match and hugs him. Orton and Batista then make their way down to the ring and all 4 men raise each other's hands showing unity.



Why I like this idea

-Triple H and Shawn Michaels have tremendous chemistry with one another when cutting promos together (we saw this in DX).

-HBK, in my opinion, can come across MUCH more cocky than Ric Flair.

-HBK replacing Flair in Evolution, gives Evolution a fresher image.

-The fans want to cheer Flair. With HBK right now, you can see that some fans are starting to 'boo' him.
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Old 04-03-2004, 04:32 PM   #2
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Giving HHH the title again would be a terrible idea.
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Old 04-03-2004, 04:35 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vito 22
Giving HHH the title again would be a terrible idea.
It's going to happen whether you like it or not.

Anyways - HBK (replacing Flair) in Evolution = good idea?
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Old 04-03-2004, 04:39 PM   #4
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I think it'd be dumb to rejoin hhh and hbk. If my friend beat me with a sledge hammer, if we constantly got into brutal scraps at every turn, I'd probably never give him the time of day every again. I know stuff like that happens in wrestling all the time, but its so unbelievable.
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Old 04-03-2004, 04:45 PM   #5
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Well alot of unbelievable things have been going on just about since WWF started. Like Heyman said...HHH and Shawn have great chemistry with one another and I've been wanting them to team back up as heels again for a while now, and it could give Flair a chance to manage an up and coming face.
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Old 04-03-2004, 04:45 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman
I think it'd be dumb to rejoin hhh and hbk. If my friend beat me with a sledge hammer, if we constantly got into brutal scraps at every turn, I'd probably never give him the time of day every again. I know stuff like that happens in wrestling all the time, but its so unbelievable.
Yeah - I see where your coming from. If it's of any solace however, think back to 2001 when Austin aligned with Vince and Triple H after WM-17. A few months earlier, Austin and Triple H were practically trying to kill one another.

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Old 04-03-2004, 04:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman
I think it'd be dumb to rejoin hhh and hbk. If my friend beat me with a sledge hammer, if we constantly got into brutal scraps at every turn, I'd probably never give him the time of day every again. I know stuff like that happens in wrestling all the time, but its so unbelievable.
Yeah, but it could work.

Think when Austin-Triple H paired up. Wouldn't you rather have the guy on your side instead of just endlessly beating the hell out of each other?
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Old 04-03-2004, 04:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman
Yeah - I see where your coming from. If it's of any solace however, think back to 2001 when Austin aligned with Vince and Triple H after WM-17. A few months earlier, Austin and Triple H were practically trying to kill one another.

You beat me to it...
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Old 04-03-2004, 04:56 PM   #9
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You beat me to it...



great minds think alike though.
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Old 04-03-2004, 05:23 PM   #10
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On the one hand, HBK doesn't really fit with the whole "calm, cool and collected" style that Evolution exudes. He's always been "in your face" like in DX.

On the other hand, it's just what the name suggests: evolution. The game is changing, so why not the players?

Heyman, I love you, man.
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Old 04-03-2004, 05:48 PM   #11
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Yeah i think it'll be dumb to get HBK involved in Evolution. They cant just kiss and make up.
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Old 04-03-2004, 06:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman
great minds think alike though.

Where do you fit in with that statement?

Anyway, I think that Evolution is fine the way it is right now. The only change I want to see is when Randy Orton eventually takes over the group and fueds with HHH. I think that Evolution is finally starting to emerge as a group of entertaining heels. In 2003, they were boring, but now they have been really great lately IMO. And Austin and HHH as the two man pwer trip wasn't that great IMO, so I don't want to see HHH and HBK hogging up the main events like HHH/Austin did 3 years ago.
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Old 04-03-2004, 07:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BasicThuganomics
Where do you fit in with that statement?

Anyway, I think that Evolution is fine the way it is right now. The only change I want to see is when Randy Orton eventually takes over the group and fueds with HHH. I think that Evolution is finally starting to emerge as a group of entertaining heels. In 2003, they were boring, but now they have been really great lately IMO. And Austin and HHH as the two man pwer trip wasn't that great IMO, so I don't want to see HHH and HBK hogging up the main events like HHH/Austin did 3 years ago.
If HBK joined Evolution, I don't think he'd 'hog' the main-event with Triple H. Think back to when Austin and Triple H had the two man power trip. Austin was world champ, while Trips was IC champ. Triple H jobbed to Jeff Hardy, and then jobbed to Kane (for right now, I'm ignoring the fact that Triple H squashed Jeff Hardy in the return match).

Now - think about this.

Randy Orton - heel IC champ
Triple H - heel World Champ
HBK - heel main-eventer, that feuds with main-eventers not currently feuding with Triple H.

So.........let's say Triple H is feuding with Chris Benoit, while Shawn Michaels is feuding with Edge. Let's say Triple H defeats Benoit, but Edge defeats Shawn Michaels. What do you have next? Edge is ready to face Triple H.....and looks like a credible opponent due to him defeating HBK

The reason why this won't work with Flair, is because Flair is seen WELL past his prime..........whereas HBK has been made to look on the same 'level' as Triple H in recent months.

Also - if Evolution consists of Triple H, HBK, Orton, and Batista for a long period of time, perhaps Batista and Orton can eventually split away from HBK and Triple H (HBK and Triple H being the faces, while Orton and Batista being the heels).

One reason why I don't like the idea of Orton taking over Evolution and then feuding with Triple H (by himself), is because Triple H may be hardpressed to get over as a face by himself (as evidenced by his face run from two years ago). Put HBK with Triple H however, and I'm sure the fans would love it.
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Old 04-03-2004, 08:12 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman
Anyways - HBK (replacing Flair) in Evolution = good idea?
no!

hbk joining with flair would make it better

but flair makes evolution what it is, without him evolution would have no meaning at all
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Old 04-03-2004, 08:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohan3k
no!

hbk joining with flair would make it better

but flair makes evolution what it is, without him evolution would have no meaning at all
Flair is a past-his-prime legend, as is HBK. The 'Evolution' may not be quiet as obvious (since HBK is still seen as a legitimate world title contender), but it would still have meaning.
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Old 04-03-2004, 08:17 PM   #16
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. Batista is just an ordinary big guy. I don't see how he fits in with the group of: The best there ever was, the best there is today, and the best of the future. Rick Flair may not wrestle much anymore, but hell, that doesn't mean that Teddy Long has to wrestle to be a part of the New Nation or whatever they were called. He's got a lot of charisma and I love watching his face go from kinda red to bright red to damn near purple when he gets REALLY excited.

As for Orton: Why keep him as the heel and have him take over the group. In a situation where the he and HHH would be fighting for control over the group, he wouldn't necessarily have to be the heel (think Rocky circa Nation of Domination).

ANd as for the feud between HBK and HHH...what if your girlfriend's friend kicked your ass in front of tens of thousands of live audience members and hundreds of thousands of people watching on live TV? Would you A: have your girlfriend beat her ass? or B: Dump your girlfriend because of the emotional strain she caused you because she didn't come out to save you from her best friend, then make out with her best friend to get revenge on her for not saving you while the girl you're making out with beat your ass on live tv, humiliating you. My point is this: It may not be believable, but it happens, so this situation is very much possible and depending on which person is replaced, it could be a good thing or a bad thing.
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Old 04-03-2004, 08:46 PM   #17
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Conclusion:

If HBK turns heel, who would be the remaining faces to challenge for the World Title? (Let's presume HHH wins back the title)

Benoit?
Edge?
Or even worse... Ric Flair???
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Old 04-03-2004, 09:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldbird
Conclusion:

If HBK turns heel, who would be the remaining faces to challenge for the World Title? (Let's presume HHH wins back the title)

Benoit?
Edge?
Or even worse... Ric Flair???
Benoit, Edge, Chris Jericho, and perhaps Shelton Benjamin. Who knows - maybe someone like Kane could turn face as well.
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Old 04-03-2004, 09:02 PM   #19
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^^^

Do u wan the ppl in here to pwn u or wad? Kane becoming face and eating ice cream with the undertaker? Ya think that's possible? And screw it man, i bet Shelton Benjamin will be thrown back to HEAT after a few months.
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Old 04-03-2004, 09:11 PM   #20
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HHmmm... Good idea... Not only do they have great chemistry together, but then only one of them could hog the main event spot.
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Old 04-03-2004, 09:11 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldbird
^^^

Do u wan the ppl in here to pwn u or wad? Kane becoming face and eating ice cream with the undertaker? Ya think that's possible? And screw it man, i bet Shelton Benjamin will be thrown back to HEAT after a few months.
Kane as a badass face that chokeslams random heels could get VERY over. Think back to late 1998 (before Kane got put in the assylum at the time) for an indication of what I'm talking about.

The problem with Kane's previous runs as a face, is that the WWE made him to look 'weak' and 'emotional'. In other words, Kane was almost portrayed to be a homosexual (which is counter productive for his character).

Pissed off Kane that destroys heels could catch on.
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Old 04-03-2004, 09:40 PM   #22
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Why are so defensive of this idea?

First off, Flair basically plays the role of mouthpiece for the promo-challenged Orton and Batista. He pushes them. He gets them over. With HBK, that wouldn't happen. Since he's the more active wrestler, when he talked he'd be talking about himself...Shawn. Evolution would turn into TripleH and HBK and these Two Other Guys.

Basically, Orton and Batista are not that over; they would be overshadowed by Triple H and HBK. Evolution shouldn't break up until Orton seems ready to feud against Triple H, maybe towards the end of the year. Then, and only then, would a HBK/HHH reunion make sense.
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Old 04-03-2004, 10:01 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PureHatred
Why are so defensive of this idea?
Because - IMO, Triple H and HBK together would be VERY entertaining....and may actually lead to higher ratings.
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Old 04-03-2004, 10:30 PM   #24
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Maybe the ratings would go up for a few weeks, but in the long run all that is accomplishing is the same thing that so many people criticize the WWE for. Rehashing old ideas and burying young talent.

Like I said, pairing those two would overshadow Orton and Batista. I'm not even that big a fan of those 2, but with the months they've spent on building them up, why wreck all that now by doing a DX knockoff?

Also, as have been mentioned, HBK as a heel is an immature ass, like the bad guys in Revenge of the Nerds. Evolution is slick and cerebral.

Seriously, the more I think about it, the less I like this idea.
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Old 04-04-2004, 04:11 PM   #25
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Simple answer: No. SO shut up with this idea now.
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Old 04-04-2004, 05:28 PM   #26
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Simple answer: No. SO shut up with this idea now.
You're an even bigger dumbass than Heyman, and thats saying alot.
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Old 04-04-2004, 05:33 PM   #27
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Putting HBK into Evolution really would not work at all.

First off, the whole gimmick of Evolution really doesn't suit itself to having multiple big names in it. It's basically the formula of the Four Horsemen. And before you start saying that I'm only saying that because it's got four guys and Ric Flair, take a look at it. Aside from the very obvious superficial similarities (the limos, the expensive suits, the whole "rich playboy snob" gimmick), the mechanics of the stable work solely to put the leader over. It's one main-event heel, and his cronies who do all of his dirty work. Essentially, the whole point of it is to get Triple H over. Adding another top tier star into the group would only hinder that process and/or hurt that star's credibility by turning him into just another lackey. That, or it would require the entire stable to be re-worked, and I highly doubt that would go over too well since they finally seem to have a formula that works.

Secondly, as PureHatred said, kicking out Ric Flair and putting in Michaels would seriously hurt Orton and Batista. Neither of them are particularly over, but Flair has done wonders in helping them get heat. HBK most likely wouldn't do that. Flair can afford to get his ass handed to him in Evolution matches, because his best days are behind him, and even in his heyday the faces were always kicking the shit out of him.

And thirdly, I just really really really don't like the idea of putting Triple H and Shawn Michaels on the same side. At least when they're enemies, they put on good matches against each other.

So, yeah, I'd rather not see that happen. If HBK turns heel, then so be it. Let him feud with Benoit some more, or with Edge. But don't cram him into a slot where he really doesn't belong.
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Old 04-04-2004, 08:41 PM   #28
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I dont think Evolution should have Flair replaced. Now if the question was something along the lines of "Would you want to see HBK in Evolution?" then I would be all for it but if it envolves getting rid of Flair then no.
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Old 04-04-2004, 08:54 PM   #29
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lol I just had a thought....If HBK did become heel in evolution he would almost have to stop wearing those Jesus shirts. It just wouldnt fit a heel character
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Old 04-04-2004, 10:15 PM   #30
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No I would not do the HBK in Evolution deal.

First, consider that the fans really love HBK, and I believe he's at a point in his career where fans just dont want to boo him on a regular basis.

And no, him and HBK will not do anything for ratings. They have tried so many times to recreate angles from the past and they never pick up business. Think of all the recreations of the NWO, the IV Horsemen or even DX, and each time it didn't do as well as the orignial version. Business should continue to evolve not regress.


I dont think HBK and HHH as a unit is a bad idea, but I dont think they should be heels to do it.

As Ive mentioned before, I think the only sensible thing with Evolution is for Orton and Batista to tell Flair and HHH that "Evolution has passed them by".

I think I mentioned this in another thread about the same issue, that HBK and HHH should have another blowoff to their never ending feud and then hug at the end out of respect. Thats what would lead Orton and Batista to question HHH's toughness. Flair would side with HHH and try to calm things down, but Orton and Batista would beat the crap out of both of them. HBk would then form an alliance with Flair and HBK as the legends, and they would feud with the New Evolution who would show no respect for the legends of the WWE.

In terms of HHH and HBk putting aside their hatred. The way I see that is that it always happens in wrestling, but also in real life, take family, you can get into huge fights with family members but then eventually put aside what ever issues you had and make up.
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Old 04-04-2004, 11:38 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick
As Ive mentioned before, I think the only sensible thing with Evolution is for Orton and Batista to tell Flair and HHH that "Evolution has passed them by".

I think I mentioned this in another thread about the same issue, that HBK and HHH should have another blowoff to their never ending feud and then hug at the end out of respect. Thats what would lead Orton and Batista to question HHH's toughness. Flair would side with HHH and try to calm things down, but Orton and Batista would beat the crap out of both of them. HBk would then form an alliance with Flair and HBK as the legends, and they would feud with the New Evolution who would show no respect for the legends of the WWE.
That still leaves you with a feud between two guys who aren't over against two guys people are sick to death of. Thanks but no thanks.
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Old 04-05-2004, 12:26 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Nowhere Man
That still leaves you with a feud between two guys who aren't over against two guys people are sick to death of. Thanks but no thanks.
Randy Orton isn't over?

Also - Orton and Batista just FOUGHT and DEFEATED The Rock and Mick Foley. I think Orton and Batista are more over than you think.

p.s. I'll respond to more stuff later. Too tired right now.
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Old 04-05-2004, 01:05 AM   #33
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I think that Batista isn't too over because he's never been allowed to go over anyone important when needed. But he could easily get over if he is pushed actually. When he was calling SCSA a coward and was fueding with Shawn Micheals he was starting to get pretty damn good heat. But he never went over HBK which really screwed him up. And now everytime someone in Evolution is fueding with someone else Batista ends up jobbing to them to make the person fueding against an Evolution member look better. It won't be too hard to push him whenever the WWE decides to do it the right way I think.
But Randy Orton is pretty over now, and once he beats Foley he will be even more over. So, the idea of Evolution being taken over by the two of them isn't a bad idea at all I think. The only downside being if the end up jobbing all over the place to HHH, HBK, and Flair if CyNick's idea were to happen.
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Old 04-05-2004, 01:17 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick
No I would not do the HBK in Evolution deal.

First, consider that the fans really love HBK, and I believe he's at a point in his career where fans just dont want to boo him on a regular basis.
Yeah, but you could say the same thing about Flair. The fans still usually cheer 'the other guy' when he's facing Flair and Evolution anyways. As far as HBK goes, there have been a few 'boos' of late (not too much, but it has been there). I'm pretty sure that the fans would be MUCH more willing to 'boo' HBK than they would Flair.

Quote:
And no, him and HBK will not do anything for ratings. They have tried so many times to recreate angles from the past and they never pick up business. Think of all the recreations of the NWO, the IV Horsemen or even DX, and each time it didn't do as well as the orignial version. Business should continue to evolve not regress.
I agree with that, but would really consider Triple H and HBK 'being on the same side' (as heels) to be a re-hash? I'm not suggesting that they start acting like they did during their DX days, but I do think that the two men would do a TREMENDOUS job together in cutting heel promos. Evolution is all about being cocky. With Triple H, Orton, and HBK there, I think Evolution would pull this off to perfection.


Quote:
I dont think HBK and HHH as a unit is a bad idea, but I dont think they should be heels to do it.

As Ive mentioned before, I think the only sensible thing with Evolution is for Orton and Batista to tell Flair and HHH that "Evolution has passed them by".
If that happens, Triple H will be the one to turn face. Based on how "successful" his past run as a face was (2 years ago), do you really want to see this again?

I also don't like the idea of adding 'jabroni's' like Maven and Cade, etc. to Evolution. Evolution should be elitist stable in my opinion. Not just 'anyone' can enter Evolution. Also - I'd like to see Evolution be a main-event stable. If Orton takes over the group, it will no longer be a main-event stable (for the short term). Orton will still be in the IC division for atleast half a year or so.

Quote:
I think I mentioned this in another thread about the same issue, that HBK and HHH should have another blowoff to their never ending feud and then hug at the end out of respect. Thats what would lead Orton and Batista to question HHH's toughness. Flair would side with HHH and try to calm things down, but Orton and Batista would beat the crap out of both of them. HBk would then form an alliance with Flair and HBK as the legends, and they would feud with the New Evolution who would show no respect for the legends of the WWE.
I don't mind that idea, but I like mine better. . I just like the idea where Orton, HBK, Triple H, and Batista become the new Evolution for awhile, and then split up either early next year or late this year (in which case, Orton and Batista pair off against a face tandem of HBK and HHH).

Quote:
In terms of HHH and HBk putting aside their hatred. The way I see that is that it always happens in wrestling, but also in real life, take family, you can get into huge fights with family members but then eventually put aside what ever issues you had and make up.
I agree with this.

The advantage of heel HBK in Evolution, is that it allows a face main-eventer (who isn't currently feuding for the title) to be in a high profile feud (HBK has been made to look on the same level as Triple H). Assuming that the face goes over a guy like HBK, it makes him look 'established' enough to feud with Triple H.


p.s. As far as Orton being 'lost in the mix' (if HBK joined the group), I think that's bullshit. Orton can still be IC champion and feud with (and defeat) high quality opponents. Orton won't be main-eventing for another half year or so anyways so what difference does it make. Orton can still cut promos when Evolution gets air time. Orton is 'over' enough already as it is.

Think about this potential scenerio.

Triple H (meh - he'll get the title back) is feuding with Edge for the World title
Shawn Michaels is feuding with Chris Jericho
Randy Orton has challenged Chris Benoit for a match.

In a span of 'x' number of months, these three heels can feud with each of these 3 top faces. Throw Shelton Benjamin and Dave Batista in the mix as well.
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Old 04-05-2004, 02:23 AM   #35
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If everyone who shot your idea down start saying we agree with you, will you just drop this?
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Old 04-05-2004, 02:31 AM   #36
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Heyman doesn't shut up ever. I've been trying for awhile
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Old 04-05-2004, 02:39 AM   #37
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I see that. I just really think that this idea is bad.

Triple H + HBK = 40 minute promos talking about Triple H and HBK

Orton and Batista are over only when Flair or Trips are around--the WWE knows that which is why you dont see a lot of solo TV time for those two.

So any kind of combo where Triple H and HBK are together will result in the other members being seen as sidekicks and secondary characters (sorta like NAO in DX) which might be right for Batista, but at this point would be serious setback for Orton.
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Old 04-05-2004, 10:41 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PureHatred
I see that. I just really think that this idea is bad.

Triple H + HBK = 40 minute promos talking about Triple H and HBK
Bullshit. You lose all credibility when you say shit like that. 40 minute promos?

Quote:
Orton and Batista are over only when Flair or Trips are around--the WWE knows that which is why you dont see a lot of solo TV time for those two.
Maybe you have a case with Batista, but Orton is 'over' without Flair and Triple H now. As far as Batista goes, he can easily get over whenever the WWE wants him to (due to his size).

Quote:
So any kind of combo where Triple H and HBK are together will result in the other members being seen as sidekicks and secondary characters (sorta like NAO in DX) which might be right for Batista, but at this point would be serious setback for Orton.
Actually - the NAO comparison is a great one. . Think about the NAO for a second. Were the NAO completely 'buried', or did they steal have a meaningful role within the group? (and managed to get over).

Think about when DX first broke up.

DID BILLY GUNN RECEIVE A PUSH?!?!?!?!...........YES

Granted, Billy's defincies as a wrestler ultimately lead to his failed push, but he could've (and would've) been pushed to the moon.

Same thing with Orton here. He's not going to be main-eventing within the next half year anyways. With that being said, I fail to see why Orton (continuing) to play a secondary role for the next half year or so would be a "serious setback" to his career.

In my opinion, there is no difference between Orton being the leader of a mid-card stable (If Orton took over Evolution right now, that's what Evolution would be), or playing a secondary role within a MAIN-EVENT stable in Evolution (which is what we're seeing now).

And you still never acknowledged the fact that Orton can still be put in high profile feuds despite HBK's presence (either with Edge, Benoit, or Jericho).
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Old 04-05-2004, 11:25 AM   #39
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If you put HBK and HHH in a group together people will automatically think DX, that puts Orton in a spot where he's an afterthought to HBK and HHH. Thats not good. Orton just has to stand up to Hunter and he's a main eventer. I think I say this every coupld of weeks, but Orton is already basically a main eventer.

DX added a bunch of mid card guys, and it was lead by a guy who was further down the card right than Orton is right now. Yet DX managed to be the hottest thing in the comapny next to Austin. Orton can easily lead a group of mid card guys and make them main eventers 6-8 months from now. For proof, look at how easily the WWE got Benjamin over to main event level, all he had to do was beat HHH and the fans were with him. Same could happen with guys like Maven or Cade (or why not add Benjamin to the group?)

In terms of HHH not being a successful face, who cares? HHH shouldn't be looked upon to be the main guy in the company, but he is. He's not effective as a heel in terms of drawing money (yeah he gets some pops, but show me a promoter who makes money off pops and I'll show you a flying monkey), so what would it matter if he's ineffective as a face in drawing money? It would eb the same thing.

You talked about Flair, and he should also be a face, which is why I think an alliance between HHH, HBK and Flair would be effective because fans could cheer them all instead of forcing them to do something they dont want to.

And furthermore if they really wanted to turn HBK heel, which I still maintain wont work (in large part because HBK is a 'different person' now) they should throw him on SD where they actually need heels.

Orton vs HHH should be the focus for the company, nothing should get in the way to complicate that.
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Old 04-05-2004, 04:11 PM   #40
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Bullshit. You lose all credibility when you say shit like that. 40 minute promos?
Hyperbole:Literary term meaning exageration for the sake of effect. That's all I have to say since I basically think its still a bad idea. CyNick explained it better than I have the energy to. Basically, Orton and Batista playing lackey to Hunter and HBK (no matter how much this idea makes you squeal like a little girl) is a step backwards for them. At least , it most certainly it for Randy Orton.
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