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Old 08-02-2016, 07:48 PM   #81
The Condor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Guycott View Post
At least come close to HTM's reign as IC champ. Even being a midcard monster would have been a nice way to showcase the guy.
Honky Tonk Man... the perfect prototype for the upcoming run of dominance from Eva Marie.
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Old 08-02-2016, 07:52 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Tom Guycott View Post
Cole was AMAZING on "Beast in the East". Marked difference from insanely micromanaged to just being able to do his job freely.
Cole catches a lot of heat from fans, but re-watching 2000's Smackdown on the Network, he and Taz were absolutely fantastic as a team. Extremely underrated historically.
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Old 08-02-2016, 07:54 PM   #83
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Drebs, this CAN'T be in regards to me... this has to be targeted at Cool King... right? RIGHT?!
No, my taste in women is exceptional.
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Old 08-02-2016, 10:30 PM   #84
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Disco Inferno was massively underrated and deserved a run in the WWE.
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Old 08-02-2016, 11:09 PM   #85
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I liked Aces & Eights. Thought it was a great angle and he best Bully Ray has ever been. I also likeed him and D-Von holding singles titles at the same time. Thought Briscope And Bischoph see great additions to the stable.

Honestly wish The Dudleys went to SD and aligned with Styles expanding The Club. Could drop the camo for leather and bring in more of the Aces & Eights gimmick. SD needs the tag teams as well, Raws tag division is to deep.
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Old 08-02-2016, 11:09 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
Disco Inferno was massively underrated and deserved a run in the WWE.
He was supposed to be Honky Tonk Man's protégé in 1997, but he couldn't escape his WCW contract. Thus we were given the gift of Rockabilly.
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Old 08-02-2016, 11:11 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Condor View Post
Cole catches a lot of heat from fans, but re-watching 2000's Smackdown on the Network, he and Taz were absolutely fantastic as a team. Extremely underrated historically.
Agreed. Hell, even his work in early 1999 while JR was out was pretty damn solid I've always thought. Especially given how green he was and who he was replacing, I've always thought Cole's work in 1999 was really solid in comparison to what he's been forced to become today.
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Old 08-03-2016, 02:41 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Condor View Post
Cole catches a lot of heat from fans, but re-watching 2000's Smackdown on the Network, he and Taz were absolutely fantastic as a team. Extremely underrated historically.
Love the Heyman story about them bitching about him having them come in on an off day to do retakes until...
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Old 08-03-2016, 02:59 PM   #89
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Few more tidbits:

1) I was never a huge fan of Rey Mysterio. I didn't 'dislike' him, but wasn't exactly a fan of his.

2) I think D'Lo Brown had legit main-event and drawing potential before the WWE decided to squash him (i.e. Droz incident + rumors of him jumping ship to WCW).

3) I think Daniel Puder would have been a legit main-event star in the WWE had the WWE capitalized on his momentum (and helped nurture and guide his immaturity as opposed to throwing him to the wolves).

4) Brian Christopher should have and could have been a tremendous IC level heel in my opinion, had he held his shit together.

5) Jim Ross has legitimately sucked on the penises of other wrestlers backstage (mainly African Americans and Samoans).

6) CM Punk was a 'good' talent, but didn't have that 'it' factor needed to be the top guy. His face promos were to "logical" and didn't have enough emotion (which is a major reason why I think he ultimately failed as a face). It's the same reason why Edge never really got over a main-event face either. By contrast - look at a guy like Ultimate Warrior from way back in the day. His promos were weird and made zero sense, but they were filled with raw retarded emotion and the fans dug it up as result.

7) Ryan Shamrock was fucking hot, as was the lady that played Miss Beaver Cleavage in 1999. In my opinion they were as hot as Trish Stratus, Torrie Wilson, and Stacy Kiebler.
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Old 08-03-2016, 06:09 PM   #90
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DLo was one of my favourites. I even routed for him while in Lo Down.
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Old 08-04-2016, 11:44 PM   #91
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I'm probably too late to this party, but here goes:

I always thought JBL should have retained the WWE Title against John Cena at WrestleMania 21. It's not because I liked JBL, but to me it never made sense outside the "John Cena is going to be the man" paradigm people saw it through even at the time. I missed a lot of the stuff that made John Cena really cool as Australia didn't get SmackDown for a period of 2003, and one of my first active memories of post-jorts Cena was him having a dreadful Best of Five Series with Booker T, where he won the US Title from himself. I remember him dropping the US Title to Carlito, winning it back, then the Carlito/Jesus stuff being cut short.

I hated John Cena before it was cool, I guess you could say, and after begging for ANYBODY to end the JBL title reign, I felt it made everybody look stupid for Cena to win the belt like he did at Mania 21. Given that they barely had 10 minutes at Mania, I thought that it would have made sense to have JBL's Cabinet attack Cena causing the DQ, yes even at Mania, and build to Cena taking them out one-by-one and earning the belt instead of being handed it because that's what happens when the WWE wants to make you a babyface star.

A DQ ending to a Mania title match, the babyface not getting his just dues at the big show, Orlando Jordan being involved at a WrestleMania -- it all feels counter-intuitive, but I stand by it to this day, and I actually think it would have positioned people to be less oppositional to the Cenazoic Period once he took over, got drafted to RAW and started telling veterans that he was "real recognizing real."

I guess my big point on this is: The Cena backlash was already being primed in 2004 long before SummerSlam 2005, where it first got vocalized en masse.

Also, I agree with not being too high on Rob Van Dam, and I always found The Rock to be a bit obnoxious.
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Old 08-04-2016, 11:52 PM   #92
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I'm preparation to be tar and feathered...

I'm not big on Renee Young. She's pretty meh to me. I mean, I get why people like her. But I've just never been into her.
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Old 08-05-2016, 06:44 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post

I think D'Lo Brown had legit main-event and drawing potential before the WWE decided to squash him (i.e. Droz incident + rumors of him jumping ship to WCW).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
DLo was one of my favourites. I even routed for him while in Lo Down.
I also think D'Lo could've gone places, and firmly believe he SHOULD have gone to WCW. I feel he would have been one of those who got an up-the-card boost from going to Atlanta, then back to WWE, sorta like Jarrett did.
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Old 08-05-2016, 06:49 AM   #94
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I don't get why Cesaro is over. He's boring on the mic. The swing is stupid. That tape he wears now is silly. His entrance is a James Bond rip off and his music is terrible. Plus he's bald.
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Old 08-05-2016, 07:07 AM   #95
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Quote:
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I'm probably too late to this party, but here goes:
We're doing this as a two-parter based on the volume of feedback, so will look to squeeze it in next week if we can ;-)
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Old 08-05-2016, 08:59 AM   #96
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I really never understood the hard-on for Bret Hart. Perhaps part of this comes from the fact that I first started watching wrestling in 1998 with WCW, so my first memories of Bret are when he was 41/42 years old and had basically checked out. He was also dealing with injuries and then he of course Goldberg concussed him and he retired a year and a half into me watching.

Like, I'm not saying Bret sucked or anything. If I'm watching an old show and he's there I can appreciate the match from a technical standpoint. But I don't find myself binge watching old Bret matches on the Network as I do with other wrestlers.
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Old 08-05-2016, 09:06 AM   #97
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Quote:
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I always found The Rock to be a bit obnoxious.
This actually is something I agree with, mostly with respect to his appearances after his 2011 return. His entire schtick is just to come in now and then and tear down one of the current stars. I understand The Rock himself picks who he wants to promo with, and the wrestlers themselves love interacting with him and understandably so. But as a viewer I always was puzzled by the benefit of having The Rock make the current roster look like a bunch of bitches. It only reinforced the perception that the Attitude Era was far more important than anything happening with the current product.

I likened it to watching a Rock film only for Sly Stallone or Clint Eastwood or somebody to walk in midway through a scene with zero context or connection to the story and just verbally rip Dwayne Johnson to shreds. And then leave, so The Rock can't actually get any sort of revenge.
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Old 08-05-2016, 09:18 AM   #98
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Oh, I also never got why people thought Crow Sting was better than Surfer Sting. Crow Sting just pointed with a bat and hung out in the rafters. Boring.
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Old 08-05-2016, 09:18 AM   #99
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Surfer Sting rules though.
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Old 08-05-2016, 09:23 AM   #100
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Biker Taker vs. Surfer Sting ONLY!!!
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Old 08-05-2016, 09:24 AM   #101
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Biker Taker was cool. He's lucky no one stole his bike tho.
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Old 08-05-2016, 09:59 AM   #102
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Quote:
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7) as was the lady that played Miss Beaver Cleavage in 1999. In my opinion they were as hot as Trish Stratus, Torrie Wilson, and Stacy Kiebler.
Yea, I always had in appreciation for her too - after they turned Beaver Cleavage to Chaz she became his manager Marianna. Unfortunately, she died of cancer within a couple years of leaving the WWF after that
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Old 08-05-2016, 10:00 AM   #103
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Biker Taker was cool. He's lucky no one stole his bike tho.
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Old 08-05-2016, 12:23 PM   #104
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I really never understood the hard-on for Bret Hart....
I'm the same.

When it comes to The Hart Family, it's always been Owen Hart for me.
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Old 08-05-2016, 03:39 PM   #105
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I'm not a troll!
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Old 08-05-2016, 03:47 PM   #106
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1. vince mcmohan is not a genius or even close.
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Old 08-05-2016, 03:54 PM   #107
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I liked Russos first shot at WCW, and I mean liked it better than the WWF of the time.

Everyone had a purpose and no-one was a bonafide face or heel, especially the factions that evolved out of it. I remember posting here when I re-watched it years ago and had a chart showing who was feuding with who. The Filthy Animals were heels against the 4 Horseman, but faces against the Revolution. In one PPV, David Flair lays out DDP with a crowbar because he just snaps, then later that night, the Filthy Animals brutally attack Ric Flair which leads to David Flair coming out later in the night to take out Eddie with a crowbar and let the Revolution win leading to David Flair along with Crowbar being a couple of my favourite characters of the time.

3 Count came onto the scene along with Tank Abbot. The Cat found a really good groove. nWo 2000 would have been great if it wasn't for Halls problems, Bret getting injured and Goldberg thinking he could punch a non-gimmicked window (and Jeff being held out of the main event because of Goldberg/Bret). SID'S FUCKING STREAK, he just pranced out and power bombed people to call it a victory and at one point was even coming out dancing to the Maestro playing piano.

Then the "legends" other than Flair had stuff to do for the first time in years. Hacksaw had an angle, Russo's lackeys in Henig & La Parka were ready for shenanigans and the Jung Drangons feud with 3 count capped off an awesome roster that was booked well.

Every single thing in that brief run had me wanting more and it wasn't until the Radicalz left for WWF that ended that for me. It's a shame, I wish he at least managed to have a year at it solo. It's not like they recovered after firing him then bringing him back with Bischoff.
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Old 08-05-2016, 07:02 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito Cruz View Post
I really never understood the hard-on for Bret Hart. Perhaps part of this comes from the fact that I first started watching wrestling in 1998 with WCW, so my first memories of Bret are when he was 41/42 years old and had basically checked out. He was also dealing with injuries and then he of course Goldberg concussed him and he retired a year and a half into me watching.

Like, I'm not saying Bret sucked or anything. If I'm watching an old show and he's there I can appreciate the match from a technical standpoint. But I don't find myself binge watching old Bret matches on the Network as I do with other wrestlers.
Not to bust your chops because we like what we like, but if you give him a chance and watch his body of work from 1987 (starting with the match against Macho on SNME) until 1997, I think you'd be a fan of it.

Bret I do find relates mostly to Brits and Canadians, who tend to be less bombastic in their tastes. Americans tend to like louder characters whereas Canadians and Brits like their more subtle every-man characters. It's pretty much the reason that the Hart Foundation angle worked so well in 1997. So I fully understand Bret not connecting with you. A friend of mine (aka the guy who started this thread ) made the comparison that Bret is De Niro and Shawn is Pacino. I guess that'd make Hulk Hogan into Mel Gibson.
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Old 08-05-2016, 07:05 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The MAC View Post
1. vince mcmohan is not a genius or even close.
I agree. I think he has a wealth of knowledge, drive, work ethic and an insatiable appetite for success but I believe he tends to cross the fine line into madness more than he is genius.

I do believe you can have moments of utter genius and not be a genius. I believe Vince McMahon personifies this.

People will see this as a knock on Vince, but just because he's not a genius doesn't take away all that he has done. He is just not as clever as he would love people to think he is.
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Old 08-05-2016, 08:05 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito Cruz View Post
I really never understood the hard-on for Bret Hart. Perhaps part of this comes from the fact that I first started watching wrestling in 1998 with WCW, so my first memories of Bret are when he was 41/42 years old and had basically checked out. He was also dealing with injuries and then he of course Goldberg concussed him and he retired a year and a half into me watching.

Like, I'm not saying Bret sucked or anything. If I'm watching an old show and he's there I can appreciate the match from a technical standpoint. But I don't find myself binge watching old Bret matches on the Network as I do with other wrestlers.
Well, in that case:

* This is the kind of thing one says to completely destroy their credibility as a commentator, but I'm also not that big on Bret Hart. I can admit objectively that he is good by whatever agreed upon metrics there are to define a great wrestler, but as someone that has had to go and re-watch his work without the emotion at the time, I find him kind of boring and have always found Owen to be better. His I Quit Match against Austin at WrestleMania 13 may be lauded as the greatest WWE match of all-time, but I honestly have trouble paying attention during it. What is wrong with me and how can I be fixed?

* I've found NXT boring since August of last year. It roughly coincides with the departure of Charlotte, Sasha and Becky as performers. Also, I have been underwhelmed by Charlotte, Sasha & Becky as main roster performers. I know each has worked hard and their WrestleMania match was great, but beyond that, they haven't manage to hit the stride they did in NXT -- possibly due to the lack of planning that gets to go into their work in NXT and their overall presentation as just part of the scenery on RAW and SmackDown.

* If you were suddenly thrust the booking power in WWE starting with WrestleMania X-7, given that he had beaten Stone Cold Steve Austin at No Way Out that year, Triple H beating The Undertaker would have been a sane call. Without the streak there, it is debatable whether or not Taker would have gone over A-Train and Big Show at Mania XIX, Orton at Mania 21, Batista at Mania 23, Edge at Mania XXIV, HBK at Mania XXV, etc. I believe the streak is kind of horse-shitty.

Taker was already an iconic figure in wrestling and arguably pop-culture by the time Jim Ross pointed out the streak at Mania X-7 and since then, a lot of The Undertaker's booking has held back others and may have potentially even held back Taker himself. Responding to losses is an important part of any wrestler's career, and Taker was robbed of that opportunity until he was a part-time star.

Taker's streak also put emphasis on the win-loss record of other wrestlers. Edge beating Alberto Del Rio at WrestleMania XXVII comes to mind. A lot of people criticize ADR these days, but when he first showed up, beat Rey Mysterio in his first match, slapped the urn out of Paul Bearer's hands, and won the largest Royal Rumble of all-time -- things were clicking for him. Then he lost to Edge because someone realized that Edge hadn't won a WrestleMania match in some time. Probably because he didn't get to go over Chris Jericho at the previous WrestleMania despite being a returning babyface, but I digress: Del Rio was dead in the water after he lost to Edge.

You can sense how the streak influenced the booking of guys making their debuts at WrestleMania, and you can feel certain wins and certain losses really crushing certain guys, and a large part of that is because of the emphasis that had been put onto the streak, particularly between 2005 and 2014. Shawn Michaels became Mr. WrestleMania because of the quality of his WrestleMania performances. And who knows, if it had never existed, maybe The Undertaker could have made some stars? Cue maniacal Kane laugh.
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Old 08-05-2016, 08:23 PM   #111
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Quote:
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People will see this as a knock on Vince, but just because he's not a genius doesn't take away all that he has done. He is just not as clever as he would love people to think he is.
Early 1980's Vince certainly was a genius and visionary, but like so many, he became lost with the times and never evolved, I'd say by about 1990. The last 25 years have been nothing but Vince preying on incompetent competition and the 1996-99 period of having his back put against the wall and listening to fan reactions and Vince Russo.

He's a genius in the way that certain public intellectuals are: their thoughts and theories may be perfect for a certain time and era, though they may be obsolete in 2 decades.
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Old 08-05-2016, 08:42 PM   #112
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I'd honestly say that the attitude era was more Russo than Vince. It's always best not to believe Russo 100%, but I do believe it when he says he had the ideas, but Vince knew how to make them just ever so slightly perfect.
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Old 08-05-2016, 08:48 PM   #113
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Vince certainly was a filter for Russo. They made an excellent team
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Old 08-06-2016, 12:31 AM   #114
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Vince certainly was a filter for Russo. They made an excellent team
They really were. Sadly, I think both have fallen victim to their own egos and legends at this point.

Oddly, it seems like Heyman and Bischoff have matured and found peace the most over the last 15+ years.
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Old 08-06-2016, 12:34 PM   #115
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I'm not a troll!
Don't worry, Chase is an anomoly, if he doesnt appreciate the potential of Kerwin White, he's the troll.
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Old 08-06-2016, 02:16 PM   #116
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I am not super into Finn Balor. Seen many superior workers/matches/feuds/characters from others in NXT. Only thing Balor has going for him over them is the sweet demon entrance.... and the past two times he has done it he seems to have "phoned it in" compared to the first couple of times.

Balor should be nowhere near one of the Summerslam main events, especially so soon after debuting. Needs some time to establish himself on the main roster, and I don't think he has the mic skills/character/charisma to do that in such a short amount of time. I think maybe if they play those NXT video packages they made for him when he won the NXT Title (or maybe it was before), it would be their best bet at getting him over.

I think Balor should go heel, personally, he just doesn't cut it for me as a face. I hear tell he was heel in Japan with The Club, so maybe he should just do that again. Something about his appearance just strikes me as slimy and Gollum-esque.
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Old 08-06-2016, 04:15 PM   #117
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I'm really not into him either.

His entrance is so damn long and boring and it really doesn't suit him. With Undertaker, another one with a long entrance, it actually suits him and the majority of the time, it's worth the wait. His theme also doesn't suit him. It sounds like it was a rejected piece from a Castlevania game.

And similar to Mr. Jaw there, his mic skills/character/charisma are another thing I've noticed. His mic skills and charisma are just dire. For me, he's up there with Baron Corbin when it comes to being boring on the mic and lacking charisma.

I also think it's a bit too early for him to be way up in the heights of SummerSlam main event, so hopefully, he loses at SummerSlam, has a rematch, then Reigns takes his place. While Reigns does that, Bálor enters the US title picture perhaps and sticks around there for a good while before making his way back to the main event scene.
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Old 08-06-2016, 04:22 PM   #118
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Think the entrance worked good in NXT where it was a smaller environment, and everyone in the arena would do the "arm thing" with him....

Always did think he should have two themes, though. One for The Demon Finn and one for Leather Jacket Finn.
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Old 08-06-2016, 07:43 PM   #119
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Gosh, Noid sure has been pessimistic lately.

One might even call him....CyNickal.
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Old 08-06-2016, 07:52 PM   #120
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Agree on Balor, arm thing is cringe worthy tbh.

Talking about NXT as a whole, I am not convinced that it accomplishes anything apart from being a small niche brand in itself. We are yet to see a wealth of WWE trained and produced performers making it to the main roster and I remain unconvinced that it helped guys like Owens and Zayn acclimatise. A good worker is a good worker and AJ has proven that by just stepping neatly into a main event role and the mythical "WWE style"

I guess what I am saying is that people on the net love NXT, but I think it is pointless as an exercise and don't see the value in it. Sorry Trips :-(

Also, Batista was awesome and noone on the roster, bar Cena, reaches close to the level he was at. He had an awesome presence, great look, tangible charisma, and he backed it up with more great matches than people give him credit for. Undervalued and don't think his legacy does him justice.
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