Your most "Against The Grain" opinion on wrestling

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by The Condor It's not about matches being better, because the athleticism of today's guys is exponentially better. However, the entertainment value is not there, the emotional ties to wrestlers is almost non-existent, save for a handful of guys. I just prefer stories and characters that enhance great matches. Case in point: Cena/Punk was stellar because we cared, there was so much involved. Roman Reigns is boring, has an undefined character, is competent in-ring-wise, and his story lines suck. Tag lines and buzzwords like "I'm not a good guy...", Underdog from the Underground, and the lone wolf are not characters nor do they incite excitement.

Originally Posted by Maluco Agree with above. The art of psychology and storytelling is gone. Guys like HBK and Bret Hart were not just technically good, but they knew how and when to sell, they dragged you into the match and emotionally involved you in it. Nowadays you get hit with chair, a DDT and a big finisher and you pop up within 10 seconds to go into the next sequence. That's obviously just a small part of what's going on, but nobody seems to know/or is allowed, to bring emotion into matches. HBK/Flair is still one of my favourite matches to this day. Flair was all but done and HBK was in his latter years, but what a story. I am no mark, but was on my feet at the end an explaining the whole story to my then girlfriend who was watching. Then HBK/Taker, again, the story sucked you in. It wasn't a one off. Even back in the day, a Benoit/Jericho clinic was great to watch...but give me a Mankind title win any day of the week. Technical wrestling is such a small part of it. Matches like Zayn/Nakamura and the likes are fantastic to watch, but they are soon forgotten. It's the stories that leave a legacy and are remembered forever. That's whats missing from today's product I think. Nobody tells stories anymore, and I don't think anyone knows how to. The likes of Hart/HBK/Flair/Steamboat should be down in NXT teaching that!

Not exactly so much that nobody knows how to tell a story, but the focus is not there anymore for WWE. Announcers spend more time with one-liners and dumbass conversations and talking about how someone's valet looks than PUTTING OVER THE IN-RING TALENT. Matches are being put together with this beginning/middle/end mentality that makes them less exciting to the fans, but that's what the company wants, so what are you gonna do?

To requite Maluco again "Matches like Zayn/Nakamura and the likes are fantastic to watch, but they are soon forgotten." But, is that really their fault? I mean, the only "feud" of any kind they have seen fit to keep any thread to are the "history" between Zayn and Owens. Neither Sami or Kevin have really had another feud to pad their respective resumes, unless you count Stee- uh, Owens' clash with Cena. But even then, nobody really has a memorable COLLECTION of feuds anymore. If WWE can be assed to do it, someone might get *one*, usually where one person is clearly supposed to get the rub, and then... nothing. People are somehow supposed to get over by osmosis or after being buried verbally from the booth or being jobbed out repeatedly (or some combination of the three), and when they don't, it's their fault.

Zayn can't be seen as anything more than an "internet appealing spot monkey" if they don't give him any substance to help him be perceived as more than that. Why should I give a fuck about Rusev when he keeps beating Jack Swagger, Zack Ryder, and Mark Henry repeatedly in rotation? There's nothing to him other than "barrel chested foreign heel". What has Baron Corbin done on the main roster besides beat on Dolph Ziggler for a minute and win the Macguffin Trophy of the Year? What makes him a heel besides being tall and having badass music? And even people they are supposed to be "taking care" of, like Roman, aren't exactly exempt. He wasn't exactly transitioning from feud to feud as much as he was getting fed people progressively up the card so he can become champion and new top guy in a very transparent bid to create a new money machine. There wasn't really any kind of ride to be taken with him, outside of that feud with Bray Wyatt, and even THAT was very forced. If they had just taken 5 year approach instead of a 3 year one, and let him breathe and get over on his own... or salvage the shit he was taking by just making the man the company's "hand picked heel" and just rolling with it, they still tried to make him Cena lite.

No, the "stories" they want to tell are the ones that are screamed in the ear of the announce team. Things that should be taking place most of the time aren't, because that's the WWE style anymore. People who can put together good matches are just told to go out there and do so. Writers only have time for about 3 company wide feuds at a time, because scripting shit that should really speak for itself is hard work for two teams of writers. Matches come and go with no follow-through. Nothing is hardly ever at stake. People are just supposed to go "ooh, aah" at someone who "looks the shit", and that is supposed to parlay into a multiple title reign-slash-movie/tv career that Vince can say he had had an integral role in creating.

[RP]

I wonder if guys like Fandango think about quitting wrestling all the time because his name is Fandango and no one named Fandango will ever even sniff a title push, let alone a title match.

[XL]

Must be hard; choice between financial stability or artistic integrity. That's why guys like Jeff Hardy (who must be well off, and WWE would snap up in a heartbeat, go to/stay in TNA, so that they can have more control over what they do.

Look at what Derrick Bateman became in TNA. The guy has a lot of potential (much like Johnny Curtis) but that wasn't realised until he got to TNA.

[BigCrippyZ]

Originally Posted by Tom Guycott But one of the problems was that *everyone* had to have that "larger than life" look- like obscenely tall bodybuilders- , and it made decent sized people like the guys you mentioned seem comparatively smaller and smaller until it became problematic. Now, since you've seen so many big men over time, you're inclined to think "smaller" guys all look like Taz, even if someone is like 6'1". I said before if WWE had some magic anacroistic ability to pull some of the more notable big men in history into the early 80's (tall like Taker, Nash, Show, Khali, El Gigante, or Nathan Jones, or meaty like Earthquake, Tugboat, Mark Henry...) Andre wouldn't seem nearly as impressive, because he wouldn't be a lone giant in a world of normal sized folk. He still had his intangibles, sure, but his immediate attention demanding presence wouldn't command nearly as much because there would have been others like him. The perception of size has slowly been swayed over the last 40 years to a cartoonish degree, and now it looks "weird" that there is an attempt to correct that with an influx and focus on more normal-heighted people. Then, you also have to reconcile the fact that even "small" has to sometimes be justified. It is downright insulting to some still that DB or Punk were World Heavyweight Champsions, but will fondly remember Hart or Michaels, who really weren't all that fucking big themselves. Guys like Piper or Jake Roberts never really had a "ripped" physique. Look back at a guy like Harley Race, who is arguably considered both one of the all-time greats AND one of the toughest motherfuckers to walk the planet, and he didn't exactly look like he was chistled out of granite. He looked like a middle manager who had a bad day at work, had a few beers, a couple cigars, then decide he was going down to the arena that night to let off some steam. We've been told so much, directly or indirectly, that for someone to be World Champion material, they have to look a particular way, that when people come along that might have what it takes except a particular set of genetic, they get arbitrarily rejected. And when I say World Champion material, I don't mean they immediately get the belt and get a Hogan run... I simply mean that when the next "OH MY GOD, SO MANY INJURIES/ABSENCES" tide rolls around, they won't be trying to suddenly elevate people into higher echelons out of necessity that nobody is buying because they didn't take the time before to even TRY to sell them to the fans.

Oh no doubt at that at all, and that's by far not their biggest issue, but one that I think still needs to be addressed. I just feel like now they've almost gone to the other extreme with it. All the guys coming up who appear to be the "future" are all pretty average looking. Not saying there's not a place for them, but if everyone looks like the average Joe on the street, it just makes it all seem kind of like a joke.

In comparison to Bret, HBK, Austin, Taker, Foley and Kane. You had a nice mixture in there. You had the "smaller" but still athletic guys in Bret and Shawn, you had the more cut guys like Rock and Austin, you had the monsters like Taker and Kane and you had Foley as your kind of everyday guy.

[Black Widow]

Shield 3way was better than Zayn/Owens.

[Ruien]

Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ Oh no doubt at that at all, and that's by far not their biggest issue, but one that I think still needs to be addressed. I just feel like now they've almost gone to the other extreme with it. All the guys coming up who appear to be the "future" are all pretty average looking. Not saying there's not a place for them, but if everyone looks like the average Joe on the street, it just makes it all seem kind of like a joke. In comparison to Bret, HBK, Austin, Taker, Foley and Kane. You had a nice mixture in there. You had the "smaller" but still athletic guys in Bret and Shawn, you had the more cut guys like Rock and Austin, you had the monsters like Taker and Kane and you had Foley as your kind of everyday guy.

And then you have Kevin Owens who has a beet gut and no muscle tone.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I feel like when it was a lot of big/chiseled guys, people were complaining that Vince had a big man fetish. Now that it has changed, people are longing for the big guys again. I feel like a lot of internet wrestling fans have no real desire to be entertained by the product. They would rather just spend all of their time "going against the grain", so to speak, and bitching about how everything sucks and how their ideas are better. It's really frustrating to read threads here sometimes.

[Lock Jaw]

ABT "going against the grain" by denouncing "going against the grain"

[wwe2222]

Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla I feel like when it was a lot of big/chiseled guys, people were complaining that Vince had a big man fetish. Now that it has changed, people are longing for the big guys again. I feel like a lot of internet wrestling fans have no real desire to be entertained by the product. They would rather just spend all of their time "going against the grain", so to speak, and bitching about how everything sucks and how their ideas are better. It's really frustrating to read threads here sometimes.

I think people are looking for variety. I know I am. The larger than life aspect that made pro wrestling great has disappears. And when I say larger than life, I don't mean big guys. I mean personalities, size. Ring gear. So many bland superstars right now.

[Frank Drebin]

I don't think anyone is pining for just "huge lookin dudes" Variety is correct.

The "bitching" ABT, is more the storylines. Guys getting start and stop pushes, 50/50 booking, and a lack of long term plans. Very little of the "bitching" I see has to do with the talent themselves save for Reigns which is a whole different animal

[Vastardikai]

The best programs end up being the guys coming up with stuff on their own, independent of creative.

I think that's part of the issue with the current era, guys just want to put on "The Best Match on the Card (Registered trademark, marks in spandex)" and not "Tell the Best Story" or "Sell the Most Tickets." Telling the best story involves them doing their own stuff on the booking end, not just taking "Creative Has Nothing For You." There's a reason why fans buy the shit out of New Day stuff. Selling the Most Tickets involves making people care for the guy doing the 1350 splash, not just the 1350 splash itself.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Talent is definitely there.

[Anybody Thrilla]

There's a wide variety of body types on the roster right now. Not really sure where that's coming from.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

But nobody is talking about body types...

[ron the dial]

people bring up body types here pretty regularly.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

people being gertner lol

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The main problem if there is one with body types is that every is 220 pounds with abs minus some exceptions. Everyone just looks the same. It's not nec. the want for big diesed up hombres to be on tv but instead more of a variety. All shapes and sizes if you will.

Either way, me personally, sees no issues with the bodies nowadays. Seems fairly steroid free which I like.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead But nobody is talking about body types...

Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ Oh no doubt at that at all, and that's by far not their biggest issue, but one that I think still needs to be addressed. I just feel like now they've almost gone to the other extreme with it. All the guys coming up who appear to be the "future" are all pretty average looking. Not saying there's not a place for them, but if everyone looks like the average Joe on the street, it just makes it all seem kind of like a joke. In comparison to Bret, HBK, Austin, Taker, Foley and Kane. You had a nice mixture in there. You had the "smaller" but still athletic guys in Bret and Shawn, you had the more cut guys like Rock and Austin, you had the monsters like Taker and Kane and you had Foley as your kind of everyday guy.

Originally Posted by Ruien And then you have Kevin Owens who has a beet gut and no muscle tone.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ Agree with both Maluco and Noid here. I'd also say that everybody coming up these days are all pretty much similar in look/build/body/style, with a few exceptions, but nobody really has that larger than life look anymore. I'm not saying that I want to see everyone look like they're on the juice or just left the gym but I think they've gone to the other extreme. Since CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, now almost everyone looks too average and they all seem short as hell, like all the talent they just pulled in off the street or a couch somewhere. Hell, even HBK and Austin were more cut/built than a lot of the guys today. Sami Zayn, Bray, Owens, Balor, Corbin, Enzo, they're all either short or look like they spend most of their time on a couch or both.

Originally Posted by Tom Guycott But one of the problems was that *everyone* had to have that "larger than life" look- like obscenely tall bodybuilders- , and it made decent sized people like the guys you mentioned seem comparatively smaller and smaller until it became problematic. Now, since you've seen so many big men over time, you're inclined to think "smaller" guys all look like Taz, even if someone is like 6'1". I said before if WWE had some magic anacroistic ability to pull some of the more notable big men in history into the early 80's (tall like Taker, Nash, Show, Khali, El Gigante, or Nathan Jones, or meaty like Earthquake, Tugboat, Mark Henry...) Andre wouldn't seem nearly as impressive, because he wouldn't be a lone giant in a world of normal sized folk. He still had his intangibles, sure, but his immediate attention demanding presence wouldn't command nearly as much because there would have been others like him. The perception of size has slowly been swayed over the last 40 years to a cartoonish degree, and now it looks "weird" that there is an attempt to correct that with an influx and focus on more normal-heighted people. Then, you also have to reconcile the fact that even "small" has to sometimes be justified. It is downright insulting to some still that DB or Punk were World Heavyweight Champsions, but will fondly remember Hart or Michaels, who really weren't all that fucking big themselves. Guys like Piper or Jake Roberts never really had a "ripped" physique. Look back at a guy like Harley Race, who is arguably considered both one of the all-time greats AND one of the toughest motherfuckers to walk the planet, and he didn't exactly look like he was chistled out of granite. He looked like a middle manager who had a bad day at work, had a few beers, a couple cigars, then decide he was going down to the arena that night to let off some steam. We've been told so much, directly or indirectly, that for someone to be World Champion material, they have to look a particular way, that when people come along that might have what it takes except a particular set of genetic, they get arbitrarily rejected. And when I say World Champion material, I don't mean they immediately get the belt and get a Hogan run... I simply mean that when the next "OH MY GOD, SO MANY INJURIES/ABSENCES" tide rolls around, they won't be trying to suddenly elevate people into higher echelons out of necessity that nobody is buying because they didn't take the time before to even TRY to sell them to the fans.

Those are all from this thread, Newstead.

[Stickman]

The womens division still isn't that good,

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Well you're completely right Anybody Thrilla. and I... am completely wrong.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

But in all fairness, you should just ignore any post by Ruien (all offence intened Ruieny ;-) )

Kevin Owens is awesome. I would like him less if he was w/o beer gut. He'd just look like "everyone else".

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by Stickman The womens division still isn't that good,

I'll agree with that. Improved by leaps and bounds in that they actually work matches, and in spurts there is some AWESOME work. But I find some of the work to be awkward and clunky.

[Stickman]

Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead I'll agree with that. Improved by leaps and bounds in that they actually work matches, and in spurts there is some AWESOME work. But I find some of the work to be awkward and clunky.

That is a very good analogy. There are 3-4 that are very good but it does seem awkward at times. I would put Trish, Lita, Victoria, Jackie and Ivory up against anybody now and they come out on top.

[Lock Jaw]

Conversely, before the draft I looked forward to womens matches/segments almost more than the mens....... Maybe from being so burnt out on the men, that even if it wasn't always "good" I enjoyed the women because it still seemed "vaguely fresh".....

Would always be a good "pick me up" in the midst of drudging through a 3 hour RAW to see WWE Paige, Becky, Sasha, or Charlotte......

Not a fan of the division being split up, but I guess I would not have been a fan of a show having no women at all....

[Lock Jaw]

Originally Posted by Stickman That is a very good analogy. There are 3-4 that are very good but it does seem awkward at times. I would put Trish, Lita, Victoria, Jackie and Ivory up against anybody now and they come out on top.

How dare you miss Molly Holly

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by Stickman That is a very good analogy. There are 3-4 that are very good but it does seem awkward at times. I would put Trish, Lita, Victoria, Jackie and Ivory up against anybody now and they come out on top.

Trish and Lita could be pretty clunky as well tbh. Kind of hard to work a tight match with your tits hanging out everywhere.

[Innovator]

I get the whole look that WWE wants their women to have, but wouldn't a real competition have their women put their hair back?

[Anybody Thrilla]

Long hair has been a thing in wrestling for the better part of forever.

[drave]

The name of the new title does not bother me.

[drave]

JBL is actually a WRASSLIN GOD-UH

[RP]

Originally Posted by drave The name of the new title does not bother me.

AGREED

[Anybody Thrilla]

I agree as well.

[ron the dial]

not only does it not bother me, i like it.

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by Innovator I get the whole look that WWE wants their women to have, but wouldn't a real competition have their women put their hair back?

Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla Long hair has been a thing in wrestling for the better part of forever.

Isn't the basic point of long hair (pertaining to wrestling, I mean before sarcasm) to simultaneously create movement and also help hide spot calling?

Tying it back would "make sense" insofar as "competition" and being able to see their face, but esentially be counterproductive in the scheme of pro wrestling.

[drave]

I give credit for Matt Hardy finding a "gimmick" - but I don't find anything about it "good".

Now he will inevitably run it into the ground before self-deletion.

[Stickman]

Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead Trish and Lita could be pretty clunky as well tbh. Kind of hard to work a tight match with your tits hanging out everywhere.

Agreed. I don't understand why women tend to be clunky and awkward more than the guys. Aside from tits hanging out, it seems like at times women stop and start moving while performing manuvers whereas men are able to do things in one motion. I really don't get why that is.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Originally Posted by Tom Guycott Isn't the basic point of long hair (pertaining to wrestling, I mean before sarcasm) to simultaneously create movement and also help hide spot calling? Tying it back would "make sense" insofar as "competition" and being able to see their face, but esentially be counterproductive in the scheme of pro wrestling.

Yup

[Anybody Thrilla]

That's what I was poking at.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Originally Posted by drave I give credit for Matt Hardy finding a "gimmick" - but I don't find anything about it "good". Now he will inevitably run it into the ground before self-deletion.

It's really fucking stupid, and I hate that anyone is down with it.