Official Raw 8/16 Thread

[Volchok]

that was a bunch of crapolla... but anyway they screwd themselves over by doing the turn so soon...

[RemyRed]

Originally Posted By Mayo Benoit just lost his title last night, jackass. He will probably face Batista at the PPV, and I see it more as a way to cement Batista's status to the upper midcard rather than to bring Benoit back to midcard hell. Guerrero just faced Kurt Angle, and they are both definitely main eventers. Just because someone is not in possession of the title or fighting for it doesn't mean they are midcarders.

After that squash match that Guererro had against Angle, there really is no one left for him to fight, he'll be feuding with Rene Dupree this month. Batista into the upper-card may be the intention, but there's no way he'll get over enough, the result will be Benoit getting dragged down.

[Volchok]

i was atleast hoping for Batista to go with Orton.. but thats to much for WWE to do.. or they should have had Jericho come out.. but that would have screwd everything up... damn nothing can work out

[Loose Cannon]

Maybe they do something where they Strip him of the Title so he doesn't have to lose it. Can't believe I'm saying that cause I hate those angles, but it will protect him.

[Volchok]

lol dont worry LC everything will work out fine... i hope..

[Loose Cannon]

Originally Posted by EcKo 03 ComPlEX i was atleast hoping for Batista to go with Orton.. but thats to much for WWE to do.. or they should have had Jericho come out.. but that would have screwd everything up... damn nothing can work out

yea, I was really hoping Batista would go w/ him. He still might though a little later.

[Sensei Of Mattitude]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon No way. Mark Jindrack, Garrison Cade, Maven? Hell no.. I'd go with HBK or Edge.

I was thinking that Edge could be the next member of Evolution. He'll always be a mid-carder, no threat to the Game and it just seems to fit.

Plus if they keep up the fueds to a certain degree, they could put together a pretty sweet Survivor Series Match.....

"Evolution"
Triple H, Ric Flair, Edge and Batista
vs
Randy Orton, Eugene, Chris Jericho and Chris Benoit

I would pay to see that.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Sensei Of Mattitude Cynick, you are so right. After tonight, these are the things I am now pissed at: 1) Orton is out of Evolution. Evolution's theme song perfectly fit the World Heavyweight Champion. Now Jim Johnstone or some other fucker has to come up with a brand new theme. They'll probably come up with one like Shelton Benjamin's. All shitty. 2) Where does this leave one Mr. Rabid Wolverine, Chris Benoit? A stellar fued with Batista because Batista threw Benoit into the steps? I'll pay $35 to see Benoit/Batista (NOT). 3) Will there be a replacement for Orton's spot? You know, this is where a SEAN O'HAIRE would have fit very nicely in, or a Mark Jindrak... or as I think about it... maybe Maven? But not a Garrison Cade. 4) Orton is now a "Face". That fucking blows. The reason we LOVE Randy Orton is because he is a HEEL. Face Orton will not be as cool as Heel Orton. - Just like The Rock. The Rock was tidious, hackneyed and boring after a while. But when HollyRock came back to the WWE in time for WM19, he was out of control awesome. 5) Just an observation: Did anyone see that GOLDEN RAZOR BLADE that Orton left in the middle of the ring? Or was that a piece of the gold confetti. It looked like the blade to me. How ridiculous is a GOLD Razor Blade? Am I the only one loving the more air time for.... MATT HARDY VERSION 1-AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

The main thing that gets to me is that they knew they were going to turn Ortn face, so why would you have him crap ont he crowd? I mean that has to be one of the stupidiest bookign moves in the history of booking moves.

They are now relying on the fans being sympathetic towards Orton because he got his ass handed to him. I mean he cant say he's going to go through Evo one by one, we've all seen how well that worked for Edge in terms of getting over. And he cant even be a cocky heel, because he's a face now. The more I think of it, the dumber I think this is.

And worst of all, this should have been Randy's night. He just came off a clean win over Chris Benoit at a major PPV. He gets the big baloon ceremony, the video package, looks like a mega superstar. Then has another strong match with Benoit, but instead of RAW ending with the fans seeing a new superstar being created, what do we get? Oh yeah, HHH dominant once again.

One day they'll learn, oh wait, no, no they wont.

[Boondock Saint]

I see what you're all saying. And I do hope Orton's reign lasts past Unforgiven and something good happens with Benoit.

But aside from that, I am glad this turn happened tonight. If they dragged it out, for me anyway, it would have been boring as hell because we knew this was going to happen at some point so dragging it out would just get annoying. But that's just me.

The celebration actually went longer than I thought so for a bit I didn't think it was going to happen, but as soon as HHH gave Randy the thumbs up, I knew what was coming.


Oh well, whatever. Lets see how this plays out.

[Volchok]

btw if i bring up some random thing from tonight im watching Raw over...

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Mayo Benoit just lost his title last night, jackass. He will probably face Batista at the PPV, and I see it more as a way to cement Batista's status to the upper midcard rather than to bring Benoit back to midcard hell. Guerrero just faced Kurt Angle, and they are both definitely main eventers. Just because someone is not in possession of the title or fighting for it doesn't mean they are midcarders.

The difference is that the fans see Angle and Eddie as the top two guys on SD. JBL is a joke, so being out of the title picture on SD isn't really moving down the card. I mean the US title looks like the main title on the show.

I think people can see the writing on the wall with Benoit. All throughout his title run he played second fiddle to HHH and his angles. But at least Benoit had the belt to keep him at or near the main events. He did a clean JOB to Orton, and another JOB tonight. Now it appears he's destined for a program with Batista, who is not a main event guy. Perhaps Benoit will get a win, and stay near the top, but I would not be surprised to see Benoit lose yet again And if that happens, well he'll be finished as a top level guy.

[Volchok]

o LC did you get my pm? j/w

[Loose Cannon]

You know the more I think about the turn, the more it makes sense in a real world kind of setting. WHY would HHH wait to turn on Orton? He's pissed and he wants to kill him for stealing the spotlight. Why would he wait fot? If you look at it like that, it seems to make sense. Like I can see HHH/Flair/Batista like plotting shit behind Orton's back before he won the Title. I know that never aired, but I can see stuff like that.


Again, I thought it was rushed, but if you look at it from a "real world" perspsective, it kind of makes sense

[Sensei Of Mattitude]

Benoit has gotten severly DICKED OVER. There really is nothing for him to do now on RAW. I would love for Benoit to go back to Smackdown (where I wanted him to stay)

Benoit/Eddie
Benoit/Taker (has Taker ever tapped out? I remember they said he didnt back in 2000 when he fought Shamrock at Backlash)
Benoit/Cena
Benoit/Booker (oh those WCW days)

etc
etc

[Splaya]

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 One of two things will happen... Orton will lose... Or Orton will... umm... Win... Seriously, something big is gonna happen...

The biggest fucking face turn happened that's what

[Herb Masta]

fuuuuck man.. orton. thats harsh what they did, but damn.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon You know the more I think about the turn, the more it makes sense in a real world kind of setting. WHY would HHH wait to turn on Orton? He's pissed and he wants to kill him for stealing the spotlight. Why would he wait fot? If you look at it like that, it seems to make sense. Like I can see HHH/Flair/Batista like plotting shit behind Orton's back before he won the Title. I know that never aired, but I can see stuff like that. Again, I thought it was rushed, but if you look at it from a "real world" perspsective, it kind of makes sense

Okay but first things first, this is wrestling, creating stars should be their main concern, last night I believe they took some steps backwards with ol Randy.

Second things second, you could also say it would make sense for HHH to make it seem like he's friends with Orton, let Orton get beat up for several months defending the title, and then after Orton has been weakened HHH can stick the knife in his back and take the title from him.

But I dont think anyone would say the way they did the angle doesn't make sense, but in terms of booking it did nothing for Orton and may have done a lot of damage to his ability to get over as a face.

[Splaya]

Originally Posted by The CyNick The main thing that gets to me is that they knew they were going to turn Ortn face, so why would you have him crap ont he crowd? I mean that has to be one of the stupidiest bookign moves in the history of booking moves. They are now relying on the fans being sympathetic towards Orton because he got his ass handed to him. I mean he cant say he's going to go through Evo one by one, we've all seen how well that worked for Edge in terms of getting over. And he cant even be a cocky heel, because he's a face now. The more I think of it, the dumber I think this is. And worst of all, this should have been Randy's night. He just came off a clean win over Chris Benoit at a major PPV. He gets the big baloon ceremony, the video package, looks like a mega superstar. Then has another strong match with Benoit, but instead of RAW ending with the fans seeing a new superstar being created, what do we get? Oh yeah, HHH dominant once again. One day they'll learn, oh wait, no, no they wont.

Your crushing my barbie world right now by saying this shit.



Your making sense like you usually do, but still. Why can't Randy just be a normal champ

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Sensei Of Mattitude Benoit has gotten severly DICKED OVER. There really is nothing for him to do now on RAW. I would love for Benoit to go back to Smackdown (where I wanted him to stay) Benoit/Eddie Benoit/Taker (has Taker ever tapped out? I remember they said he didnt back in 2000 when he fought Shamrock at Backlash) Benoit/Cena Benoit/Booker (oh those WCW days) etc etc

I was saying that before, after he programs with Batista, and likely does a TV JOB for Hunter, whats left for him?

[Splaya]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Okay but first things first, this is wrestling, creating stars should be their main concern, last night I believe they took some steps backwards with ol Randy. Second things second, you could also say it would make sense for HHH to make it seem like he's friends with Orton, let Orton get beat up for several months defending the title, and then after Orton has been weakened HHH can stick the knife in his back and take the title from him. But I dont think anyone would say the way they did the angle doesn't make sense, but in terms of booking it did nothing for Orton and may have done a lot of damage to his ability to get over as a face.

But the big question Cynick is, whether they ruin his face turn or his character in general, would you still cheer for him as a main eventer that he is now?

[RemyRed]

Maybe he isn't going to be a face.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Splaya Your crushing my barbie world right now by saying this shit. Your making sense like you usually do, but still. Why can't Randy just be a normal champ

lol

Hey, hopefully I'm wrong. I mean maybe the fans will get behind Orton and have sympathy for him. But I just dont see why they would cheer him, especially after his promos the last few weeks. On top of that, he's out of Evo, and we all know Evo will always be booked to look stronger than everyone else, so he could easily become like Edge where the fans could care less about him either way.

[Loose Cannon]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Okay but first things first, this is wrestling, creating stars should be their main concern, last night I believe they took some steps backwards with ol Randy. Second things second, you could also say it would make sense for HHH to make it seem like he's friends with Orton, let Orton get beat up for several months defending the title, and then after Orton has been weakened HHH can stick the knife in his back and take the title from him. But I dont think anyone would say the way they did the angle doesn't make sense, but in terms of booking it did nothing for Orton and may have done a lot of damage to his ability to get over as a face.

Yeah, your second point made a lot of sense. That's good booking right there. I was just trying to play Devil's Advocate.

What if they do this though. Say Orton vs HHH at Unforgiven or Survivor Series. A huge Screwjob would happen (YEAH...AGAIN) and HHH wins it.

Orton wins the Rumble and goes on to face HHH at Mania and wins it back. They just need to keep him from doing a Huge Job to HHH where he doesn't look like a joke.

[Loose Cannon]

But SADLY, once Orton starts getting pop with the fans, I will start to not like him anymore. I'll have to pick a new guy soon. Happens all the time. Just happened with Cena.

[Sensei Of Mattitude]

Heel Orton > Face Orton

HollyRock > The Rock

RANDY ORTON is meant to be the cocky heel. Thats what brought him to the table, thats why we love him. Why change that?

Heel Orton vs the following:

HBK
Benoit (again)
Jericho
Edge (the man that beat him for the IC Title)
Eugene
Regal
Triple H (both heels, remember HHH/Angle Rumble 01, both heels)


Im disappointed.... but

ORTON STILL RULES

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Splaya But the big question Cynick is, whether they ruin his face turn or his character in general, would you still cheer for him as a main eventer that he is now?

I mean I like him because he plays a cocky arrogant heel and he beats everyone. But if he goes baby, he's going to have to play to the crowd and he'll lose that arrogance. So I dont really know what to expect, I kinda expect him to become very bland as a babyface.

If you look at a guy like Cena, who a lot of people felt was turned too early, at leats his gimmick is such that he can come out do a rap on a guy, throw a jersey in the crowd, yell "The Champ is here" and the fans will go nuts. I dont see what Orton has that will get people to go crazy for him. Whats he going to say "I'm better than you, now cheer me"? Or how about "Ive done more at the age of 24 than all of you combined". I just dont see where his pops will come from. I think they are basing his face turn on some heelish crowds and the fact that people hate HHH. But look at Edge, he tried ot do the "evolution I'm coming for you" speech and fans dont give two shits about him.

Like I said, we'll see, maybe the fans are dying to cheer for him, but even when he came out on RAW, I dont think he got the kind of reaction that would make me think he's going to be a forsure thing as a babyface, especially this soon.

[Sensei Of Mattitude]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Okay but first things first, this is wrestling, creating stars should be their main concern, last night I believe they took some steps backwards with ol Randy.

HOW CAN THE WWE (mainly RAW) CREATE STARS WHEN HHH JUST BURIES ALL OF THE THEME!

[Dorkchop]

I enjoyed Raw a lot. Why is it that Molly Holly get's better looking every tmie she's on TV?

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon Yeah, your second point made a lot of sense. That's good booking right there. I was just trying to play Devil's Advocate. What if they do this though. Say Orton vs HHH at Unforgiven or Survivor Series. A huge Screwjob would happen (YEAH...AGAIN) and HHH wins it. Orton wins the Rumble and goes on to face HHH at Mania and wins it back. They just need to keep him from doing a Huge Job to HHH where he doesn't look like a joke.

No doubt, thats probably how it will go down, and it makes sense from a booking standpoint.

But in order for that to work, the fans have to be behind Orton like they were for guys like Rock, Austin and so on, back in the day. I dont see how that will happen, why would fans cheer for Orton after he told them they all suck?

I see this kinda like the Brock deal in 2002. Brock was a rising star, and won the title as a heel, but got cheered for the win. The WWE looked at this and figured "hey we gotta turn Brock". They did that, and I think most would agree it was too soon, the fans weren't really behind him like the past top babys, and the build for Brock to get the title back wasn't all that hot (I mean look at the Mania buyrate that year). The one good thing they did with Brock was that they had Taker put him over in a major match, which was something few people got to do. Then they did the respect deal and from then on, Brock started to act like a face. The difference with this is that Orton could have built off the respect thing he did with Benoit, but instead he reversed it and went back to being a heel. Now he comes off getting pummeled, and I dont think in 2004 thats enough to become a huge babyface.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Sensei Of Mattitude HOW CAN THE WWE (mainly RAW) CREATE STARS WHEN HHH JUST BURIES ALL OF THE THEME!

I actually thought Randy would get under the radar because he's apparently tight with HHH, but I guess not tight enough.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Sensei Of Mattitude Heel Orton > Face Orton HollyRock > The Rock RANDY ORTON is meant to be the cocky heel. Thats what brought him to the table, thats why we love him. Why change that? Heel Orton vs the following: HBK Benoit (again) Jericho Edge (the man that beat him for the IC Title) Eugene Regal Triple H (both heels, remember HHH/Angle Rumble 01, both heels) Im disappointed.... but ORTON STILL RULES

This is exactly why I was saying they should have kept Orton heel, at the very least until SurvSer. And actually, I would have kept Orton heel all the way to Mania.

[Sensei Of Mattitude]

i wanted Orton to stay heel too

[FourFifty]

Well, a shade over 1/4 way though on the west coast... OH MY GOD! THAT SLAP FROM VICTORIA HAD TO STING! Total mark Out Moment!

[Sensei Of Mattitude]

how about a turn where Orton has Flair and Batista turn on HHH and say "fuck off", Im the World Champion.... I Run the Show!

HHH turns face and battles the cocky heel Orton who continuely wins with help from Evolution (now with Edge).

[Loose Cannon]

Originally Posted by The CyNick No doubt, thats probably how it will go down, and it makes sense from a booking standpoint. But in order for that to work, the fans have to be behind Orton like they were for guys like Rock, Austin and so on, back in the day. I dont see how that will happen, why would fans cheer for Orton after he told them they all suck? I see this kinda like the Brock deal in 2002. Brock was a rising star, and won the title as a heel, but got cheered for the win. The WWE looked at this and figured "hey we gotta turn Brock". They did that, and I think most would agree it was too soon, the fans weren't really behind him like the past top babys, and the build for Brock to get the title back wasn't all that hot (I mean look at the Mania buyrate that year). The one good thing they did with Brock was that they had Taker put him over in a major match, which was something few people got to do. Then they did the respect deal and from then on, Brock started to act like a face. The difference with this is that Orton could have built off the respect thing he did with Benoit, but instead he reversed it and went back to being a heel. Now he comes off getting pummeled, and I dont think in 2004 thats enough to become a huge babyface.

I forget the saying. But it's like "people only remember the last thing" or something like that. Yea, totally botched it. But, I think the fans will forget about what Orton said in the begginning of Raw. They will feel sorry for him because he didn't even see the attack coming. They will sympathize for the fact that he was a sitting duck and didn't even know it. They will remember the image of him bleeding in the middle of the ring at the hands of Evolution. The tweener thing will help him though because he can act like Austin and say he never asked for the fans support.

[Sensei Of Mattitude]

Diva Search Girls in order of awesomeness:

1) Christy (ENERGY!... has the tits, the face and definitely the personality)

2) Marie (unique tits, i like them, banging face)

3) Joy (TITS, personality is showing thru now)

the other 3 suck. i hate Carmella, she was standing out there tonight like she owned the place. f that. shes a ringer and that sucks.

[Sensei Of Mattitude]

my main question is

WHAT IS ORTON GOING TO DO FOR RING MUSIC NOW?
The Evolution Theme FIT HIM SO WELL.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon I forget the saying. But it's like "people only remember the last thing" or something like that. Yea, totally botched it. But, I think the fans will forget about what Orton said in the begginning of Raw. They will feel sorry for him because he didn't even see the attack coming. They will sympathize for the fact that he was a sitting duck and didn't even know it. They will remember the image of him bleeding in the middle of the ring at the hands of Evolution. The tweener thing will help him though because he can act like Austin and say he never asked for the fans support.

But what successful babyface ever got over by catching a beatdown?

Hogan got over because he beat everyone, and never sold anything.

Austin got over by being a badass redneck who talks trash and beats everyone up including his boss.

Rock got over by talking smack and of course beating on everyone.

I cant think of a case where a guy was a heel, then took a major beatdown and because of that became a major babyface. Obviously Orton will have to do some work, but especially if he's going to drop the title in Sept, I think this will be a major uphill battle.

[Loose Cannon]

They'll probably just remix it.

[Volchok]

BTW if you havent voted for a Diva.. Vote Amy...