A Continuing Debate - Why Did WCW Fail? And Is The WWE On The Same Path?

[CosaNostra]

I'm carrying this debate over from the Undertaker's Daily Rating thread so we don't keep bumping it. PerfectOne, Loose Cannon and I were having a pretty lively discussion there.

I know that this is an old debate, but it seemed to rear its head again spontaneously. Anyway:

Originally Posted by PerfectOne WCW began beating out WWF every Monday night with the debut of the NWO for something like 70 consecutive weeks. I don't have the exact figure, because it doesn't matter. The point is, the NWO and Goldberg, among other things, kept fans interested enough that they preferred WCW over WWF. If you say otherwise, that's a perfectly valid opinion, but I would have to disagree.

Nope, I can't and won't disagree with that. But I don't think that it is illogical to state that most of those guys in the NWO had already been developed and pushed to the top by the WWF and thus fan devotion followed them. When you look at it the other way around witness the current HHH in contrast to his lame WCW gimmicks. Or Mark Callous, who was preactically a jobber in WCW. Or Steve Austin. He was a tag team partner in an admittedly cool tag team. However he then came to the WWF and became bigger than anyone could have ever envisioned. I could go on and on. Who developed these guys from what they were into the blockbusters they became? Thats right - the WWF. Can the WCW ever claim the same either way? No.

Originally Posted by PerfectOne Goldberg in particular had a following at that time that was bordering on absurd, which is not an opinion but based on merchandise sales and marketing. To say that the NWO (which on THIS BOARD has been repeatedly argued to be one of the greatest, if not THE Greatest stable, ever) and Goldberg didn't contribute to this success is, in my opinion, not a fair judgement.

I agree with your there 100% They are my third favorite stable of all time, behind D-X and The Four Horsemen.

Originally Posted by PerfectOne Just because WWF eventually purchased the WCW does not mean that WCW did not win the Monday Night Wars for dozens of consecutive weeks...just that the WCW product became stale after a while and they missed their opportunity to engage the mainstream fan. By the time they found working solutions, like champions such as Jeff Jarrett, Scott Steiner, and Booker T, it was too late as WWF had a larger following, so the product was doomed.

Hardcore fans were disenfranchised with the product that was WCW, that can't be disputed. However, WCWs demise is due more to the fact that the WWF was able to draw in casual fans on a more consistent basis with their innovative progamming. The WWF was ascending faster than the WCW was disintegrating.

[Disturbed316]

I think its pretty obvious that Russo's booking helped kill WCW.

[LK]

There is no doubt that WCW failed because of the lack of ability to push new talent like the WWE did. When you have the same guys at the top all the time which WCW did and have the nWo killing everyone then people will get bored. But I feel that WCW also died because a lot of guys didn't care. Guys like Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko etc were guys that did care and wanted to put on good matches all the time yet they were never given the push. You hear it from nearly all the guys that left WWE to go to WCW that they went purely for the money. With that they are just going to stroll through matches and with creative control they will abuse that power to keep themselves on top. In the end WCW failed of the ridiculous politics which made their best wrestlers want to leave and they did. When WCW lost Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, Malenko and Saturn they lost the guys that were just as important as the nWo. WCW dominated because of the nWo and the influx of real wrestlers. Eventually when those guys were so unhappy that even they didn't care then WCW was destine dto fall apart.

[LK]

And Russo's booking hardly helped things as Disturbed said.

[Loose Cannon]

The NWO contributed to the success at the begginning, but it also killed the company at the end. Hogan, Nash and Bischoff booked WCW to look like a total joke against the NWO. Real smart because now you have fans that don't give a shit about the babyfaces.

[LK]

Yeah like LC said the nWo did help kil WCW sinc ei tmade the company look weak. When Goldberg beat Hogan to become champ that should have been the beginning of th end to make WCW look strong. You know, it should have been the case that they had finally conquered the nWo but that didn't happen

[PerfectOne]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon "Pretty lively Discussion?" More like him going off on the "smarks." The NWO contributed to the success at the begginning, but it also killed the company at the end. Hogan, Nash and Bischoff booked WCW to look like a total joke against the NWO. Real smart because now you have fans that don't give a shit about the babyfaces.

Oh! Nice one. Way to discredit me again. Are you gonna bully me around with your moderating abilities in this thread too.

I was going off on you, Loose Cannon, for your comments towards me. But I love how you villify me for standing up for myself. I'm sorry if I don't consider myself a troll, a jackass, and dumb just because I don't believe Macho Man Randy Savage is better than Rey Mysterio Jr, Taz, the ECW Rob Van Dam, and other entertaining wrestlers. You called me all those things, but watch. He makes a pot shot at me to bring this into THIS thread, but he'll be the FIRST to say "I already said sorry! Just drop it! Stop bringing it up!" He brings it up, but he'll tell me to quit and THEN he'll threaten me with his moderator ability. I've seen it all before, dude.

But you can continue on your pathetic attempts at character assassination. Continue to put words into my mouth, why don't you? Why not take some more of my statements completely out of context and use them to make smartass comments against me? Why not use your position as a moderator as leverage to attack me with? Oh, wait, you've done all those things. My mistake. Carry on.

Why someone obviously as great as you would stoop to such a low level is beyond me, but then again I'm just not as gifted as you with so much insider wrestling knowledge.

[Goulet]

Originally Posted by PerfectOne Oh! Nice one. Way to discredit me again. Are you gonna bully me around with your moderating abilities in this thread too. I was going off on you, Loose Cannon, for your comments towards me. But I love how you villify me for standing up for myself. I'm sorry if I don't consider myself a troll, a jackass, and dumb just because I don't believe Macho Man Randy Savage is better than Rey Mysterio Jr, Taz, the ECW Rob Van Dam, and other entertaining wrestlers. You called me all those things, but watch. He makes a pot shot at me to bring this into THIS thread, but he'll be the FIRST to say "I already said sorry! Just drop it! Stop bringing it up!" He brings it up, but he'll tell me to quit and THEN he'll threaten me with his moderator ability. I've seen it all before, dude. But you can continue on your pathetic attempts at character assassination. Continue to put words into my mouth, why don't you? Why not take some more of my statements completely out of context and use them to make smartass comments against me? Why not use your position as a moderator as leverage to attack me with? Oh, wait, you've done all those things. My mistake. Carry on. Why someone obviously as great as you would stoop to such a low level is beyond me, but then again I'm just not as gifted as you with so much insider wrestling knowledge.

Are you on your rag buddy? Seriously settle down, I agree with some of your points here, but truth be told, you are SERIOUSLY over-reacting to this. He apologized to you. get over it!

[Loose Cannon]

Anyway, to add to this thread. Is WWE on the same path?

Well yeah, because they really aren't doing anything to create new stars. Yea, they did it with Orton and Cena, but you're going to need more then 2. They've had plenty of oppurtunities to do it, but haven't really gone anywhere. RVD, Steiner, Goldberg, Tazz, DDP and others could have been made, but the WWE decided TO KEEP their established guys on top and be the main focus.

Like I said, with CCC and now Snitsky, they seem to be getting it, even if it's just for a moment.

I'm going to put up a passage from the Observer later about the whole Patterson deal and HHH not giving guys a chance. It's long, but it's a really good read.

[QUOTE=PerfectOne]

He makes a pot shot at me to bring this into THIS thread, but he'll be the FIRST to say "I already said sorry! Just drop it! Stop bringing it up!" He brings it up, but he'll tell me to quit and THEN he'll threaten me with his moderator ability. I've seen it all before, dude.

QUOTE]

but if you only have some 40 odd posts how could you have seen it all before if you have been here no ore than a week....
like me

Originally Posted by PerfectOne Oh! Nice one. Way to discredit me again. Are you gonna bully me around with your moderating abilities in this thread too. I was going off on you, Loose Cannon, for your comments towards me. But I love how you villify me for standing up for myself. I'm sorry if I don't consider myself a troll, a jackass, and dumb just because I don't believe Macho Man Randy Savage is better than Rey Mysterio Jr, Taz, the ECW Rob Van Dam, and other entertaining wrestlers. You called me all those things, but watch. He makes a pot shot at me to bring this into THIS thread, but he'll be the FIRST to say "I already said sorry! Just drop it! Stop bringing it up!" He brings it up, but he'll tell me to quit and THEN he'll threaten me with his moderator ability. I've seen it all before, dude. But you can continue on your pathetic attempts at character assassination. Continue to put words into my mouth, why don't you? Why not take some more of my statements completely out of context and use them to make smartass comments against me? Why not use your position as a moderator as leverage to attack me with? Oh, wait, you've done all those things. My mistake. Carry on. Why someone obviously as great as you would stoop to such a low level is beyond me, but then again I'm just not as gifted as you with so much insider wrestling knowledge.

but if you only have some 40 odd posts how could you have seen it all before if you have been here no ore than a week....
like me

[PerfectOne]

Originally Posted by BungeeWithNoCord but if you only have some 40 odd posts how could you have seen it all before if you have been here no ore than a week.... like me

I was a member previously, in 2000-2002/3. I came back early 2004 (as my profile clearly states). I'm not a big poster - I only post on things that interest me. Macho Man getting higher scores than people like Rey Jr. and Chavo Guerrero interested me, because I thought it was not reflective of my opinion. I've voted on a few of these (Flair and JBL, for instance), but I generally don't unless I feel strongly about the wrestler, or feel that a wrestler is being misrepresented.

So, Bungee, if I had only been here a week, my statement would make no sense. However, I have been a member of the tpww community for far longer -- even then I don't think I ahd more than 1000 posts to my name. I just don't post as much as others.

By the way, Loose, nice way to discredit me again. I'm loving it. Why don't you drop it, dude. I was perfectly ready to drop it after the end of the last thread, but you went and rehashed it here. That was petty of you, and the only reason you would have done so was to discredit me and illicit a response from me so that you could say "see, he overreacts! He must be a dumb, jackass troll."

my mistake

[Splaya]

Originally Posted by legendkiller There is no doubt that WCW failed because of the lack of ability to push new talent like the WWE did. When you have the same guys at the top all the time which WCW did .

Yeah and look what WWE is doing right now. Not pushing their new talent and having the same "guy" at the top

[Loose Cannon]

Seems like you have something against smarks if you ask me. How am I discrediting you?

Originally Posted by PerfectOne I think it's stupid and shows that people today are too busy trying to prove that they are sooo incredibly smart and know all the insider info, that they can judge the "wrestling" abilities people have in a FAKE sport, and pretending that they know ANYTHING about backstage politics, when all they do know is second-hand bullshit passed down by a couple of gossips in the "biz."

Originally Posted by PerfectOne Like I said, you are so stuck on your own status as a "smark" or whatever the f___ you're call yourselves now, you forgot the purpose of wrestling

Originally Posted by PerfectOne Because this board is full of jackasses who are convinced that their bullshit opinions somehow are better than everyone else's.

Originally Posted by PerfectOne But I wouldn't expect you to understand that, because the "smark" line is that it's all because JR is a tool and HHH is evil

Look, I'm sorry about this guys. If you know me, you know I don't argue crap like this, but when I get called a liar, I have to step up. If you want to delete this Funky, go ahead, but I'm not going let things go without backing myself up.

[Mr. JL]

why don't both of you shut up. If you have a fucking problem with one another go settle it in the testing forum or in a one on one conversation with just you two. Or just ignore each other. Just stop.

[PerfectOne]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon Look, I'm sorry about this guys. If you know me, you know I don't argue crap like this, but when I get called a liar, I have to step up. If you want to delete this Funky, go ahead, but I'm not going let things go without backing myself up.

Funny way of not arguing: By slinging mud on my name in THIS thread, then pretneding that you're innocent of all charges. Just how many threads will you hijack, Loose Cannon, until you feel my name has been sufficiently tred upon? Will you try to turn every thread on the board into the "Perfect-One is stupid and eats little children" hatefest?

As I said earlier:

Originally Posted by PerfectOne By the way, Loose, nice way to discredit me again. I'm loving it. Why don't you drop it, dude. I was perfectly ready to drop it after the end of the last thread, but you went and rehashed it here.

So why not just stop, Loose Cannon. You started a bunch of bullshit, and now continue the mudslinging after I had already let it go. Then you pretend that you didn't do anything and are completely innocent. Why not just stop being such a prick?

Oh, each of those comments you quoted applied specifically to you . Thanks for proving my point, that they were geared at you and showed a geniune disgust for people that think their opinions are better than everyone else's (which was my implication of you resulting from your treatment of a person with a differing view -- namely, me). That was a bad way of slandering me -- when you show yourself to be a liar and me to be correct.

[BigDaddyCool]

WWE isn't paying guys like Nash and Hogan millions of dollars a year to not draw. Also, Vince has the final say on everything. It would take a lot for WWE to die like WCW did.

[PerfectOne]

Originally Posted by Mr. JL why don't both of you shut up. If you have a fucking problem with one another go settle it in the testing forum or in a one on one conversation with just you two. Or just ignore each other. Just stop.

I agree. Hopefully Loose Cannon will just stop, and then there will be no need for me to reply. As he pointed out, he is a moderator, so he should know better. But he seems too insistent on starting flame wars with members if they don't agree with his views.

[Splaya]

Originally Posted by PerfectOne I agree. Hopefully Loose Cannon will just stop, and then there will be no need for me to reply. As he pointed out, he is a moderator, so he should know better. But he seems too insistent on starting flame wars with members if they don't agree with his views.

Shut the fuck up. You keep posting and keep attempting to get the last word in. It's amazing LC has not asked AAA or one of the admin's to ban you yet. Seriously drop it and get back to the topic. We do not need these bullshit answers to a perfectly good topic.

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool It would take a lot for WWE to die like WCW did.

I agree.

The only way for WWE to die is when no one is watching at all.

[Loose Cannon]

I should of clarified, when I said "Well yeah" to answer are they on same path of WCW, I just meant that they are like WCW in the way that they aren't creating stars right now, but they are nowhere near death yet.

I'm trying to show you guys a piece from the Observer about how bad it is backstage with the booking team right now. It ties in w/ Patterson's leave. I can't copy and paste though. It's a Paperport viewer File. Gonna have to type it up when I have time.

[Splaya]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon I should of clarified, when I said "Well yeah" to answer are they on same path of WCW, I just meant that they are like WCW in the way that they aren't creating stars right now, but they are nowhere near death yet. I'm trying to show you guys a piece from the Observer about how bad it is backstage with the booking team right now. It ties in w/ Patterson's leave. I can't copy and paste though. It's a Paperport viewer File. Gonna have to type it up when I have time.

Give me the link and I will type it up when I get home from school.

[6to1]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool WWE isn't paying guys like Nash and Hogan millions of dollars a year to not draw. Also, Vince has the final say on everything. It would take a lot for WWE to die like WCW did.

well as long as vinces family has money there will be wwe it is a family bussness. wcw was owned by time where they could pay the wrestlers a good wage, then dumbass aol took over thats what killed wcw.

[Aussie Skier]

WWE will not die, come on!

This company is a multinational company, with billions of dollars in assets.
However, in order to move forward, they do need to create hype.
Back 5-10 years ago, in AUstralia, i sued to see these t-shirts with NWO and the like everywhere.

In the past 2 years, I have seen TWO people with wrestling T-shirts on. One guy the day after smackdown toured him, and another 2 weeks later.


Until legitamate competition comes around, the WWE's product will not improve OR! VINCE, stop being an omnipotent BASTARD, hiring all your own fmaily. I mean christ, come on, there are quality people around, and yet he has his son, his daughter, his stupid son-in law and even his wife (i believe) as key people in WWE

[The CyNick]

I think the whole "WWE created the stars, thats how NWO got over" is poor logic. WCW took guys that had been on WWE TV, and used their star power, but they presented them in a completely differenet manner form anything the WWE had ever done to that point.

On top of that WCW created STing, who was the main drawing point of Starrcade 97, which did WCW's best PPV number of all time. Goldberg was a WCW created talent and he did a ton for WCW in terms of being a counter to Steve Austin. So you cant just say WCW used only WWE created stars.

The main problem have been identified; the lack of creating new stars, and the EXACT same thing is happening in WWE. I remember at the time when WCW was going down you'd hear WWE guys talk about how that would never happen in New York because Vince is 'da boss' and he doesn't bow to anyone.

But look where we are. Hunter is in the same role Hogan was, in that he's always the top guy, and in fact he's worse than Hogan, because at least HOgan drew money most of the time. Hunter hasn't been a draw for 3 years, yet he's still on top. And worse yet from Hogan, he's definately not going anywhere.

WWE claims they have created new stars, but in reality they haven't. John Cena might be the most popular guy they have right now, but that doesn't mean they've "made" a star. I mean what big wins did Cena get? What PPVs has Cena headlined?

Orton they are legitimately trying to make into this year's star, but he's on RAW, we all know what that means, so how can anyone take him seriously (crappy booking aside)? We all know, no matter what, he'll wind up being another Benoit.

In a lot of ways, I think the WWE is in a worse position right now than WCW was in '01. See if Bischoff would have got control of WCW, and Jamie Kellner had have kept wrestling on TBS, I think WCW would have had a great shot to catch up to the WWE, or at least make it close again. Sure WCW was in the toilet, but at the time the WWE was getting 5's while WCW was getting 2's. Thats a lot of people to draw from. And yeah they would have had an uphill battle, but like I said, the audience (and thus the potential) was there.

With WWE right now, even if they were to create a new big star, you've so few people watching right now that it will be hard to even get the attention of casual fans. When WCW got hot it was because they went head to head with WWE, and that created a stir, and on top of that they used some guys people were fimiliar with and the rest is history.

But now, who is out there ready to go head to head with RAW and stock a roster with Goldberg, Austin, Foley and Hogan? I dont think that person exists. So now you're left with the WWE on their own to create the new stars that will get people talking again. But look at their track record, its not encouraging. And no matter what, HHH will always be there, and Vince will always think "Hunter is a big star, he should be the top guy". With that thinking, how will the next Austin or Rock ever get over?

The good thing about the WWE is that even though their audience has dwindled, the business end of the company is run perfectly, so they keep making money. So as long as they dont lose one of their TV contracts they'll likely be able to make money for years and years. Therefore, I'm not as scared that they will go out of business, but I am worried that we'll never see another time when pro wrestling is the in thing and numbers like they were in the hey day.

[6to1]

i think wcw created people look at the cruser weights the power plant put out alot of people if anything they had too many storys. the best of 7 match with book and benott was for the damm tv belt bret hart even got involved. ok hogan and nash hoged the top belt, but wcw did better with the mid and lower cards then wwe does.

[tazmaster]

The only reason WCW isn't around today is because Turner started selling everything he could due to financial troubles. The board of directors and his bitch-ass wife, Jane Fonda only cared about one thing... the bottom line. And since Turner has his hand in every damn cookie jar he can get ahold of, wrestling was not his top priority. WCW was doing poorly at the time, so *poof* no more WCW.

Turner publicly stated that he wanted to shut Vince down. He gave Nitro 3 hours (!), early starts and late endings. Thunder got 2 hours most of it's run. I honestly believe if Turner hadn't made some bad business desicions, he would have eaten any loss WCW created just so he could continue putting the screws to Vince.

Why did WCW fall?
<--- He's why.

[6to1]

thats part of the reason, when turner combined with time, he became a vp of a big company, instead of head of a smaller company. it was good for awhile then aol came in and made tuner mid management. aol did not know jack shit about wrestling, an came up with a brite idea lets sell wcw to vince for 5 mill, forgeting they had a 5 hour timeslot to fill on tnt and tbs rated as high as wrestling was. now we know how aol went bankrupt.

[BigDaddyCool]

Originally Posted by 6to1 thats part of the reason, when turner combined with time, he became a vp of a big company, instead of head of a smaller company. it was good for awhile then aol came in and made tuner mid management. aol did not know jack shit about wrestling, an came up with a brite idea lets sell wcw to vince for 5 mill, forgeting they had a 5 hour timeslot to fill on tnt and tbs rated as high as wrestling was. now we know how aol went bankrupt.

To be fair, AOL didn't go bankrupt because of wrestling. AOL was a much smaller company than Time-Waner. It is like a mom and pop grocery store buying out Wal-Mart, sure it could happen if you know how to juggle numbers around, have some decent stock, and a whole lot of luck, but after a while, there are too many things up in the air and it all comes crashing down. So the loss of WCW is not was bankrupted AOL.

[6to1]

yea aol was a sham company one of them internet bubble companys, who coned there way into taking over time pushing turner out the door, then say f--you wrestling fans and cancels wcw from tnt.

[BigDaddyCool]

Originally Posted by 6to1 yea aol was a sham company one of them internet bubble companys, who coned there way into taking over time pushing turner out the door, then say f--you wrestling fans and cancels wcw from tnt.

Not exactly, but AOL was far smaller than Time Warner. AOL was shifted around its stocks, and liquidated a lot of assets to purchase Time Warner. It isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

[6to1]

well the sec is looking into the bait and switch aol did, lets see how many of them will go to jail.