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Old 05-04-2005, 01:39 PM   #1
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Did Taker put Orton over?/How is it different? (Raw Spoilers)
Yeah. I was talking last night about the HBK/Shelton match, hence the spoilers. And I was asked how that match was different than Orton/Taker. I mean, the big name won both times, right?

Okay, to me, the differences:
  1. The Finish: That was a skin of the teeth victory. Taker looked kinda sorta on the ropes, but Michaels looked like that was all the "gas he had in the tank," To steal from the commentary's metaphors.
  2. The Momentum: Through most of the Taker/Orton match, Orton looked on the ropes. Compared to Benjamin, who looked like he could take over at any minute. Later in the match it was a real back-n-forth sorta deal. When was Orton's momentum the strongest? After a cheap shot from Cowboy Bob? Yeah, ok.
  3. Selling: Michaels sold the moves BEnjamin laid on him. Taker didn't really sell more than he did vs Heidenreich, and he wasn't put over.
This combined (aside from the fact that I think Michaels is still a credible wrestler and Taker's only there as a museum piece to draw fans in) makes a pretty huge diff to me between the two, but let's see what y'all think./

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Old 05-04-2005, 02:06 PM   #2
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I must agree. ORton did not look any better or stronger after his match against Taker despite the hype and build up to the match.

Benjamin on the otherhand came out lookin a lot better than he did when he entered. If anything it makes his next big match much more anticipated to see what he's gonna do in it while with Orton you're more like,
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Old 05-04-2005, 02:08 PM   #3
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Other than through cheating I never thought Orton had a chance at any time during the match or before the match mind you. I didn't believe his match with Taker made him a bigger star than he was going in. As a result no put over in my opinion.

Shelton. I didn't think he had a chance going in. Then I did as a result of Shawns work in the ring and not through outside interference. Came out looking better than he did going in. Shawn put him over.

I'm far from the biggest Shawn Michaeals fan, but history will show him to be one of the best for giving his opponent credibility during his matches. Gotta respect the man for that.
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Old 05-04-2005, 02:13 PM   #4
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I reckon Shelton got himself over to be honest, not taking anything away from HBK though,he did his part brilliantly. I haven't seen Orton/Taker, but from what you guys have said, i think it's obvious what the answer is.The least they could've done was have Orton get an RKO out of nowhere after his dad distracted Taker and win the match that way.
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Old 05-04-2005, 02:15 PM   #5
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I reckon Shelton got himself over to be honest, not taking anything away from HBK though,he did his part brilliantly. I haven't seen Orton/Taker, but from what you guys have said, i think it's obvious what the answer is.The least they could've done was have Orton get an RKO out of nowhere after Bob Orton distracted Taker and win the match that way.
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Old 05-04-2005, 02:17 PM   #6
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there was the RKO from the chokeslam that was nice lookin
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Old 05-04-2005, 07:26 PM   #7
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What happened after each match made a difference too IMO. Didn't see Taker-Orton but I would guess that Taker did his post match celebration and left.

After Michaels beat Shelton he laid there for a half a minute like he was out of it and then patted and unconcious Shelton on the arm and crawled out of the ring.

Total opposite stuff right there
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Old 05-04-2005, 09:43 PM   #8
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What happens in the body of one match is usually pretty irrelevant.

One could argue that Steve Austin really was made into a star at Survivor Series 96 in his match with Bret. MOst inside people will say he became a star based on his match with Bret at Mania. But SurvSer was the first time he went toe to toe with a main eventer.

Of course the reality is neither match would have meant anything if they didn't spend the next year plus making him out to be the top guy in the company.

Thats what needs to happen to make a guy. So the fact that Shelton went toe to toe with HBK wont mean crap if next week he's going 50-50 with Simon Dean in a nothing match on RAW while HBK is in the main event.
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:50 AM   #9
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Definitely true, Cynick. But I think this discussion just confines things to one match just to analyze that. And within those contraints, everything that's been here is valid. The match itself was amazing, back and forth, where anyone could have won. Shelton lost only due to a brazen "rookie" mistake that the veteran exploited. Therefore, Shelton is on HBK's level except for experience, which is a given.

Then ending, with the concern stuff and the helping out also played a huge part.

So old history aside, HBK did a tremendous job of putting Benjamin over. I guess he has changed.... hopefully that's the case at least.
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:53 AM   #10
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HBk looked like he was lucky to get out of that match in one piece, much less with a win.

Randy Orton looked like he barely belonged in the ring with Undertaker.

From beginning to end, Shelton Benjamin just came off as more impressive. It doesn't hurt things that Shelton is light years ahead of Orton in the ring, though.
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corkscrewed
Definitely true, Cynick. But I think this discussion just confines things to one match just to analyze that. And within those contraints, everything that's been here is valid. The match itself was amazing, back and forth, where anyone could have won. Shelton lost only due to a brazen "rookie" mistake that the veteran exploited. Therefore, Shelton is on HBK's level except for experience, which is a given.

Then ending, with the concern stuff and the helping out also played a huge part.

So old history aside, HBK did a tremendous job of putting Benjamin over. I guess he has changed.... hopefully that's the case at least.
You're right. The purview of the thread was specifically hwther or not they were put over match for match, not whether they were getting a push.

Nobody can control tomorrow (Well, none of us can), but the question of the here and now can be focused on. Any pushed wrestler can be dropped at any time, so I'm not going to worry about that. The question is "Did Michaels/Taker put Benjamin/Orton over," not "will the WWE waste this?"
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PureHatred
HBk looked like he was lucky to get out of that match in one piece, much less with a win.

Randy Orton looked like he barely belonged in the ring with Undertaker.

From beginning to end, Shelton Benjamin just came off as more impressive. It doesn't hurt things that Shelton is light years ahead of Orton in the ring, though.
Still, you can be utter shit in the ring and still have someone put you over. It may not be as easy, but I don't think Orton's (lack of) skill came into this equation much.
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:15 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Kane Knight
Still, you can be utter shit in the ring and still have someone put you over. It may not be as easy, but I don't think Orton's (lack of) skill came into this equation much.
It didn't. I'm just a Shelton fan.

And it's interesting because I wonder whether the Orton injury really had that much to do with the decision to give UT the win. Would it have been different if the WWE had been able to count on Orton being on TV after WM?
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:25 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by PureHatred
And it's interesting because I wonder whether the Orton injury really had that much to do with the decision to give UT the win. Would it have been different if the WWE had been able to count on Orton being on TV after WM?
I would hope so. That UT record at WM leads me to believe otherwise. Call me negative, but I don't see UT ending his WM streak to a young one like Orton. If it does happen for some reason I see it to a person who doesn't need the push (Triple H is my bet).
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
The question is "Did Michaels/Taker put Benjamin/Orton over," not "will the WWE waste this?"
HBK did a great job putting Benjamin over, while honestly I thought Orton looked like.... less... after his match with Taker.
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