Bob Holly interview

[Vastardikai]

I am in favor of paying dues. However, there are those who seem to transcend and are good right off the bat (Cena, Lesnar, Angle, etc). But, for every Brock Lesnar, there is about 20 Lex Lugers or Big Shows who were handed everything right off the bat and got out of control egos (Show even admitted as much on an episode of, get this, Tough Enough).

Sometimes, the guys are amazing off the bat, others it takes time to devolp. Three come to mind: "Mean" Marc Callous, Rock and Flash of the Blade Runners, and "Stunning" Steve. When they first came out, they didn't have what it took to be the biggest names of the sport. After learning the craft, paying their dues (Oh, the Horror), and devolping their skills, all four became Mega Stars. I'm sure the last is the most of obvious (He went from being "Stunning" to just "Stone Cold"), the other three are well known as well. Mean Marc, after a stint as a Skyscraper and as a singles star being managed by Paul E. Dangerously, went North for Survivor Series as an Impressive Monster by the name of the Undertaker. Rock was a bit of a flash in the pan, going to WCCW as the Dingo Warrior, and finally he went North as well, becomming the Ultimate Warrior. Flash stuck it out in UWF when it was bought out by the NWA. He was the only UWFer who got over on his own merits, as the rest were subsequently buried. He is now one of the best known wrestlers never to have worked for Vincent K. McMahon: Sting.

Paying Dues, when done properly, is a good thing. Personally, I have agreed with Holly's words: Most of the Tough Enough Talents are green and should still be honing their craft away from the big time. Does that justify him roughing up the kids? Hell no. Should he have Main Evented? Definitely not. Then again, I've always thought that Jake "The Snake" should have been given a WWF Title run, so I can't know a whole lot.

[Head]

Originally Posted by Vastardikai Sometimes, the guys are amazing off the bat, others it takes time to devolp.

Pretty much my point the whole time. Not saying nobody should ever pay dues, simply saying that those who are awesome from the start really don't have to.

And again, citing specific instances of wrestlers who did or did not pay their dues, and are or are not assholes really does not prove anything. I can name a huge list of guys who paid their dues and are still assholes, and plenty who did not and are good guys. The same thing doesn't always have the same effect on everybody anyway.

And even if one argues that not paying dues has made Brock a hothead (which I personally think is being overplayed a lot, since it is mainly based on one comment), the fact is, he is still a big draw for the company, which is in the end more important to Vince than the kind of relationships the wrestlers have with each other.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Head Pretty much my point the whole time. Not saying nobody should ever pay dues, simply saying that those who are awesome from the start really don't have to. And again, citing specific instances of wrestlers who did or did not pay their dues, and are or are not assholes really does not prove anything. I can name a huge list of guys who paid their dues and are still assholes, and plenty who did not and are good guys. The same thing doesn't always have the same effect on everybody anyway. And even if one argues that not paying dues has made Brock a hothead (which I personally think is being overplayed a lot, since it is mainly based on one comment), the fact is, he is still a big draw for the company, which is in the end more important to Vince than the kind of relationships the wrestlers have with each other.

Brock
s record as a hothead may come, in part, from his NCAA record.

I doubt "Not paying his dues" had anything to do with it...Hardcore Holly's sure not a more wstable person for it...Or a more capable wrestler...

[Head]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight Brock s record as a hothead may come, in part, from his NCAA record.

I think it just may come from being a main eventer, period.

Being on top can change people whether they paid dues or not.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Head I think it just may come from being a main eventer, period. Being on top can change people whether they paid dues or not.

I'm not exactly sure he was stable to begin with though.

[Vastardikai]

Originally Posted by Head Pretty much my point the whole time. Not saying nobody should ever pay dues, simply saying that those who are awesome from the start really don't have to. And again, citing specific instances of wrestlers who did or did not pay their dues, and are or are not assholes really does not prove anything. I can name a huge list of guys who paid their dues and are still assholes, and plenty who did not and are good guys. The same thing doesn't always have the same effect on everybody anyway.

Originally Posted by Kane Knight I doubt "Not paying his dues" had anything to do with it...Hardcore Holly's sure not a more wstable person for it...Or a more capable wrestler...

The whole reason for my posting about Paying Dues and listing examples was because someone equated Paying Dues to Slavery. Hey, I think with some time, Rob Conway, Rene Dupree, and even Randy Orton, who I admittedly don't care for, can be big stars. They just need to develop their skills.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Vastardikai The whole reason for my posting about Paying Dues and listing examples was because someone equated Paying Dues to Slavery. Hey, I think with some time, Rob Conway, Rene Dupree, and even Randy Orton, who I admittedly don't care for, can be big stars. They just need to develop their skills.

No...

Someone equated that tradition was not always a good reason to justify an outdated and oft ridiculous practice.

There's a difference, BTW, between the concept of "Paying dues" and the concept of developing talent as long as it takes to make them good.

If they were doing that, Holly would still be in the developmental stage. They've enacted a senority system, which the people at the top seem to be okay with (naturally). They dislike people jumping to the top, even when they clearly have the talent. Brock didn't need the same level of training your average Joe did. He shouldn't have to be kept down, and it's better for the company if better competitors shine through.

People like Brock are the exception and not the rule.

[Vastardikai]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight No... Someone equated that tradition was not always a good reason to justify an outdated and oft ridiculous practice. There's a difference, BTW, between the concept of "Paying dues" and the concept of developing talent as long as it takes to make them good. If they were doing that, Holly would still be in the developmental stage. They've enacted a senority system, which the people at the top seem to be okay with (naturally). They dislike people jumping to the top, even when they clearly have the talent. Brock didn't need the same level of training your average Joe did. He shouldn't have to be kept down, and it's better for the company if better competitors shine through. People like Brock are the exception and not the rule.

I see, I was confused there: I figured Paying Dues = Developing Talent. Which was sort of my definition.

I didn't see a problem with what he was saying because his definition of paying dues and mine were different.

Telling me Brock is the exception goes with what I said above:

But, for every Brock Lesnar, there is about 20 Lex Lugers or Big Shows who were handed everything right off the bat and got out of control egos

Brock and the like know the basic moves, they just needed time devolping the other skills. I even remembering hearing at one point that Jericho was coaching Kurt on mic skills and he has gone quite far in that department, especially when he and Joey Styles were calling a Little Guido/Taz match in ECW. Hearing that Kurt Angle and the one who's on Smackdown is like two different people altogether. Of course, the basics out of the way saved a great deal of time. I have no problem with the folks who are already ready to go to the next level ASAP. The ones who aren't ready, like some I have mentioned, need some time developing.

But yeah, Holly needs an extended stay in OVW.

[Pepsi Man]

Originally Posted by Head Pretty much my point the whole time. Not saying nobody should ever pay dues, simply saying that those who are awesome from the start really don't have to. And again, citing specific instances of wrestlers who did or did not pay their dues, and are or are not assholes really does not prove anything. I can name a huge list of guys who paid their dues and are still assholes, and plenty who did not and are good guys. The same thing doesn't always have the same effect on everybody anyway. And even if one argues that not paying dues has made Brock a hothead (which I personally think is being overplayed a lot, since it is mainly based on one comment), the fact is, he is still a big draw for the company, which is in the end more important to Vince than the kind of relationships the wrestlers have with each other.

Lesnar got out of his car and screamed at a fan once, though he made it up, and allegedly, he gave Kurt a hard time at Mania about who called the action.

[Pepsi Man]

Originally Posted by Vastardikai I am in favor of paying dues. However, there are those who seem to transcend and are good right off the bat (Cena, Lesnar, Angle, etc). But, for every Brock Lesnar, there is about 20 Lex Lugers or Big Shows who were handed everything right off the bat and got out of control egos (Show even admitted as much on an episode of, get this, Tough Enough). Sometimes, the guys are amazing off the bat, others it takes time to devolp. Three come to mind: "Mean" Marc Callous, Rock and Flash of the Blade Runners, and "Stunning" Steve. When they first came out, they didn't have what it took to be the biggest names of the sport. After learning the craft, paying their dues (Oh, the Horror), and devolping their skills, all four became Mega Stars. I'm sure the last is the most of obvious (He went from being "Stunning" to just "Stone Cold"), the other three are well known as well. Mean Marc, after a stint as a Skyscraper and as a singles star being managed by Paul E. Dangerously, went North for Survivor Series as an Impressive Monster by the name of the Undertaker. Rock was a bit of a flash in the pan, going to WCCW as the Dingo Warrior, and finally he went North as well, becomming the Ultimate Warrior. Flash stuck it out in UWF when it was bought out by the NWA. He was the only UWFer who got over on his own merits, as the rest were subsequently buried. He is now one of the best known wrestlers never to have worked for Vincent K. McMahon: Sting. Paying Dues, when done properly, is a good thing. Personally, I have agreed with Holly's words: Most of the Tough Enough Talents are green and should still be honing their craft away from the big time. Does that justify him roughing up the kids? Hell no. Should he have Main Evented? Definitely not. Then again, I've always thought that Jake "The Snake" should have been given a WWF Title run, so I can't know a whole lot.

I never said it's an excuse for anyone to try to legitimately injure people. And him in a title match? Eh, I'll admit, I can forgive it. It was comic relief for me. His promos had me laughing almost as hard as in WCW when Kanyon used to do the Kanyon Kutter on random guys backstage.