NFL 2012 Off-Season Thread

[CSL]

"GO OUT THERE AND KILL THEM!" is hugely different from "there's some extra cash if you hit him in the head, the head the head the head"

[Kris P Lettus]

It could be argued that he was saying that in a metaphorical sense..

"Kill the head, the body dies.."

But, the "test his outside ACL" is the part that got me..

[CSL]

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus It could be argued that he was saying that in a metaphorical sense.. "Kill the head, the body dies.." But, the "test his outside ACL" is the part that got me..

absolutely, I was thinking the same thing about how most of it could be construed, especially at the start and it's clearly not a flowing speech/has been cut up to include some of the "juicy bits" but when it comes to the ACL and specific mention of hitting Gore in the head repeatedly etc, there's no other way to interpret that

[Kris P Lettus]

I like this article alot..

April 5, 2012 12:00 AM ET When Do We Draw the Line on NFL Violence? By Bill Simmons Yeah, I heard the audio of former New Orleans defensive coordinator Gregg Williams urging his players to injure various 49ers before their January playoff game. It's pretty compelling — not just because he wanted to maim Michael Crabtree and Vernon Davis, and not just because he may have been illegally taped without his consent, but because Williams might be the worst motivational speaker in recent American history. No wonder the Saints lost that game. If that was a sports movie scene, the director would have fired Williams and replaced him with another actor. What a buffoon. Of course, it's 2012 — the Year of Internet Self-Righteousness — which means we need to feign disgust, pile on the Saints, argue for Williams to receive the NFL's death penalty and basically freak out that a football coach would ever do that. So let's concede the following points. No, you shouldn't instruct your players to hurt people. Yes, you should be fined and suspended for that. Yes, Gregg Williams came off like an insensitive Neanderthal, and yes, it would be difficult (if not impossible) to take him seriously as a coach again. His professional career is over. The tape is pretty damning. Even if it's far-fetched that any Saint listened to that speech and thought to himself, Maybe my creepy weirdo of a coach is right, maybe I SHOULD go after Michael Crabtree's ACL! But there's a bigger story here: the laughable notion that anyone can change an ingrained culture of violence overnight. Any parent knows that kids never listen the first time — it takes four or five times, and usually a raised voice or a threat, before they heed your wishes. Players and coaches are wired the same way. The league never turned off its "We're gonna look the other way, keep being violent and keep those hits coming" switch until the 2010 season, after that infamous October weekend with all the signature hits, when Roger Goodell said, "Oh, crap, maybe I should start fining these guys because the Sports Legacy Institute has accumulated three-plus years of rock-solid concussion evidence and lawsuits are coming. Better later than never!" And so the league started cracking down. Less than 18 months later, we're supposed to be baffled and appalled that the Saints would shrug off those warnings, that they wanted to win money for crippling opponents or knocking them out … you know, because football players aren't supposed to think that way or something. (Watching ESPN this morning was pretty funny — it's like every talking head took an oath to forget the network was running "JACKED UP!" segments a few scant years ago.) My two favorite Patriots victories were Super Bowl XXXVI (over the Rams) and the 2003 AFC Championship (when the defense beat up Colts receivers so badly that Colts GM Bill Polian convinced the league to change the line of scrimmage contact rules the following summer). I am not naive enough to believe that, before both of those games, Bill Belichick didn't tell his players, "I want you to beat the absolute crap out of (fill in: Marshall Faulk, Isaac Bruce, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Ricky Proehl, etc.) and make them remember you the next time they go over the middle … do whatever it takes." Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Belichick uttered something more ominous than that. That's football, a sport in which coaches holler things like, "NOW GO OUT THERE AND KILL THEM!" Do they mean, literally, to murder them? Of course not. It's just the way these meatheads talk. It's the language of their barbaric game. Watch this clip, for God's sake. Normal human beings don't interact like this. When it came out that Williams (and his players) crossed the line, the Saints became The Scapegoat Du Jour for a league that desperately needed one. In case this wasn't clear, everyone, the NFL is taking player safety seriously now! Emphasis on the word "now." It's a transparent ploy to make up for decades of real negligence, as well as mounting evidence that the next generation of football players (any teenager, basically) can be ruined by one concussion. Meanwhile … 1. Football is a really violent sport. There is no right way to play football that doesn't include the words "exert your physical will." Every current player grew up hearing instructions like "I want hats on the ball" (translation: "Lead with your head"), "I want guys swarming the ball" (translation: "If your teammates are tackling someone, come flying in as hard as you can and join them") and "Make them think when they're crossing the middle!" (translation: "Keep hitting the receivers as hard as you can so that they'll start thinking about you instead of the catch"). I'm sure they heard even more vicious and inhumane instructions than that. So deconditioning them (and their coaches) is going to take time. We're going to have some hiccups along the way. Hopefully, Gregg Williams's bizarre "inspirational" speech that was only missing a stretcher and a metal Hannibal Lecter mask will be the biggest hiccup. But I doubt it. 2. Here's what I wrote after Goodell belatedly started cracking down (in October 2010): "[He's] a total hypocrite for pretending to care about the welfare of his players as he's pushing for an 18-game regular season that would lead to more injuries, more concussions, more collateral damage, more everything. Hey, Roger: If you cared about the welfare of the players, you'd shorten the season to 15 games and add another week of byes. Right? But hey, that would cost owners money. Instead, you'll continue to position yourself as the Sheriff of Player Safety, puff out your chest, crack down on hard hits and swagger around like you're Tim Olyphant in Justified." Allow me to add the following: When will Goodell admit publicly that he waited waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long to start cracking down on violence (and the culture behind it), or that he'll always regret looking the other way as evidence mounted that concussions were infinitely more dangerous than we originally believed? You're telling me Goodell never watched this Real Sports piece about Chris Nowinski, Andre Waters and concussions in 2007? Come on. The man was three years late. On everything. Maybe that's not as bad as what Gregg Williams did, but Goodell's not exactly one of the heroes of this sordid story, either. You looked the other way, Roger. You did. 3. As Peter King wrote in his column this week, the same league that's making such a fuss about violence ran a show called 10 Most Feared Tacklers on its own network last week. The truth is, the NFL doesn't know what the hell it wants. It's the most successful sports league ever; the value of its franchises has never been higher; its television money haul has never been greater. Only there's an elephant in the room — and it's not the Williams tape, Bountygate or even the hundreds of concussion-related lawsuits from former players that are coming. If they change how football is played and turn it into a glorified version of the Pro Bowl, there's a chance people won't like the sport as much. So what do you do? You pretend you care. You make an example of the Saints. You crack down on the language of your game. You overreact to cheap hits, and you fine players because sometimes they can't control their bodies at 18 miles an hour in the split second after an opponent ducks his head. You lean on media cronies and convince them to spin stories your way. You hope and pray nobody notices, and that CTE awareness never moves into the mainstream. But meanwhile, your players are bigger and faster than ever, and they're colliding at speeds at which human beings aren't meant to collide. You're walking a tightrope, basically. Only one thing can save you: the knowledge that fans won't really care because of the whole "people just want to eat steak, they don't care how it's made" mentality. Sadly, that's the best thing you have going for you. Before yesterday's Cardinals-Marlins game, I watched Muhammad Ali (one of my childhood heroes) trembling so severely that he couldn't throw the first pitch. Poor Ali could only hand the baseball to Miami's catcher … and he could barely do that. Boxing did that to him. He took too many punches; now he's a quivering mess. I noticed this, digested it and felt absolutely horrible about it. Yes, I will keep watching boxing. Which makes me a hypocrite. That's what the NFL is banking on these next few years — hypocrisy, basically — as more stories emerge about the tortured lives of retired players. Many of them can't walk, sit down or remember anything. Some battle debilitating headaches and gulp down pills like they're peanuts. A few weeks ago, Jim McMahon confessed in an interview that his short-term memory was gone, then admitted he wouldn't even remember the interview as he was giving it. You hear these things, you sigh, you feel remorse, you forget … and then you go back to looking forward to the next football season. Gregg Williams crossed the line; he won't be there. I just wish someone would decide, once and for all, where that line really is.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...e-nfl-violence

[Kris P Lettus]

Plays that on the NFL level would make "Jacked Up" segment on ESPN??

BTW

AdamSchefter on Twitter: Sources close to Saints said Sean Payton and Mickey Loomis directed Gregg Williams to ensure no inappropriate conduct would occur.

https://mobile.twitter.com/adamschef...34820310065153

[Gonzo]

The Saints got the hammer dropped primarily two reasons: they lied to the league about the extent of the program. Two, even though the hypocrisy piles up to the moon, the league is pushing a "safer" playing field. The league is currently being sued by former players and by punishing the Saints for this behavior they're furthering their own agenda in that regard.

Gregg Williams is probably not the only coach to ever tell his players to go out and target another player or injure them intentionally. It probably isn't widespread but that's irrelevant anyways. The fact is, whether Payton or Loomis gave directives or not, that the program existed with their knowledge and they didn't stop it. That's why they're included in the punishment. Are the Saints the only organization to have had a bounty program? No. It's the degree to which it was operated and the organization's (mostly the individuals responsible) reaction after the league found out.

The comparison of the Saints' bounty program to any college team is absurd. If you can't draw the distinction between the two I don't care to discuss it.

That being said...

The NFL's message about player safety is complete garbage. The league has been hypocritical right along the way about the violence and their policies and actions. If the league was serious about curbing injuries or concussions the steps would be very simple. For example, mandating mouth pieces, which are proven to mitigate concussions more than any other measure. It's all a grand facade being thrown up because the league is getting sued for the shit retired players go through.

[Kris P Lettus]

Again..

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Gonzo The fact is, whether Payton or Loomis gave directives or not, that the program existed with their knowledge and they didn't stop it.

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus Again..

Again.

Regardless of whether or not Payton and Loomis told Williams to ensure no illegal conduct was occurring (and this is form an internal source from the Saints organization mind you) they ultimately did not prevent the bounty program, or in this case, prevent the bounty program from continuing. This does not absolve them of guilt. If someone you're in charge of fucks up, deliberately or otherwise, it is ultimately your responsibility. Gregg Williams isn't a scapegoat here and I think you have misplaced the responsibility of the parties involved here.

[CSL]

surely you don't warn somebody to "not use inappropriate conduct" without a reason or a suspicion to do so. not to mention the "Saints sources" are hardly gonna come out and be like "yah, our head coach knew all along"

[Droford]

Ed Reed isn’t the only Baltimore safety making eyebrow-raising comments on talk radio this week. Strong safety Bernard Pollard, a man of strong opinions who is certainly not shy about sharing them, appeared on KILT in Houston to talk about the New Orleans Saints and their recent bounty scandal. Asked if he felt the league was marketing violence and condemning it at the same time, Pollard, the heaviest hitter in the Ravens secondary, said he understands that the NFL and commissioner Roger Goodell have a job to do, but he feels there are too many restrictions when it comes to physical play. “It's getting out of hand,” Pollard said. “This is not powderpuff football, this is not flag football. This is a violent sport. And it's a fun sport. We all love playing this game. And we're blessed by God to even go out there and display our talent to the world, but at the same time you can't sit there and say, ‘We want guts, we want glory, we want heart.' You can't give a player heart but at the end of the day you tell him, "Well, hold on but be careful when you go to make that hit.' We wear helmets and shoulder pads. That means you're supposed to go knock somebody around. We ain't wearing flags." "I don't care if you do a bounty or not, because me -- the way I'm playing -- I'm going to hit you straight in the mouth,” he said. “And if you have a concussion by me hitting you in the mouth … You know what? I don't mean to. I'm not meaning to hurt you, but this is my game. It's my life or your life, it's my family or yours. Not saying we're trying to kill each other but we're playing for something.” Pollard doesn’t think the increased emphasis on player safety is changing how the Ravens play. “No matter how many flags you throw, we're not changing the way we play the game of football,” he said.

Give the league 4-5 years where the majority of the defensive players just started in the NFL and haven't been around that long and I guarantee the quality of the game will start to suffer if they're going to pass bs rules and stuff down to protect their asses from lawsuits down the road, its ridiculous. I honestly hope that if that becomes more apparent in the quality of the games in the future that the NFL will realize what they're doing and stop it, or maybe another league forms that brings back the unrestricted gameplay..Im pretty sure people would watch.

[Krimzon7]

Fuck all of this gay ass protect the players shit. Where we're the bleeding hearts when that raggot from Pittsburgh took out Carson Palmer during their 04(?) wild card game? Where we're the calls when Vick is taking vicious shots? This is football, the sport is violent, coaching the players takes foul mouthed aggressive tacticians that should never be judged by society's bland standards. Fuck goddell, fuck the snitch, fuck these faggot ass people who don't know a chinstrap from a jockstrap passing goddamn judgement.



It's goddam muthafucking football

[Krimzon7]

Just take off th shoulder pads and put on the maxi pads. This game is gonna be for pussies in five years

[CSL]

Originally Posted by Krimzon7 Fuck all of this gay ass protect the players shit. Where we're the bleeding hearts when that raggot from Pittsburgh took out Carson Palmer during their 04(?) wild card game? Where we're the calls when Vick is taking vicious shots? This is football, the sport is violent, coaching the players takes foul mouthed aggressive tacticians that should never be judged by society's bland standards. Fuck goddell, fuck the snitch, fuck these faggot ass people who don't know a chinstrap from a jockstrap passing goddamn judgement. It's goddam muthafucking football

Originally Posted by Krimzon7 Just take off th shoulder pads and put on the maxi pads. This game is gonna be for pussies in five years

I really hope there's a high amount of tongue-wedged-in-cheek here

[Krimzon7]

Originally Posted by CSL I really hope there's a high amount of tongue-wedged-in-cheek here

Yes , partially. I hate it that this situation is coming to light. Bounties, brutality and injuries are all a part of football. I dont like roger goddell, but I understand that he's commissioner of the most visible league in the most transparent society. But society also has to acknowledge that they're pussies, and there is no way to understand what athletes go through. They can't understand what motivates them to perform at a level to entertain.

Some secrets of the trade should never have to be explained.

[Droford]

Im sure that theres a bunch of people who love a 62-51 game more than anything in the world, but football without defense is pointless to me. If you aren't going to try to stop the other team, why the hell even put a defense on the field.

[Next Big Thing]

Originally Posted by Droford Im sure that theres a bunch of people who love a 62-51 game more than anything in the world, but football without defense is pointless to me. If you aren't going to try to stop the other team, why the hell even put a defense on the field.

Shut up. The average points per game per NFL team was 22.2 this season. Do you know what it was back in 1985 when everyone was copying the 46? 21.8. 1995? 21.5 Do you know what it was back in 1965? 23.1.

The sky is not falling. The changes aren't so drastic that they're affecting the game or making it unwatchable.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...FL/scoring.htm

[Krimzon7]

Originally Posted by Next Big Thing Shut up. The average points per game per NFL team was 22.2 this season. Do you know what it was back in 1985 when everyone was copying the 46? 21.8. 1995? 21.5 Do you know what it was back in 1965? 23.1. The sky is not falling. The changes aren't so drastic that they're affecting the game or making it unwatchable. http://www.pro-football-reference.co...FL/scoring.htm

I have gotten used to the fact that the I formation, the pro set, and various running related aspects of the game are being phased out. My gripe (and I know you're responding to somebody else, but this inspired me to post with rationality-which you do a lot) is that the powers that be are phasing out the physicality that literally gives defenses any shred of hope to affect a game. The 49ers were so goddamn good this year cause they played throwback defense. Those DB's played like mike singletary. These guys hit, they don't make any bones about the bad intentions with how they play. I can guarantee they had a bounty system.

It's just a way of life, blame whoever made the choice to release injury reports for this madness. It's literally the escalation that was bound to happen from such an occurrence. Coaches, players, GM's et al are all pretty much playing week to week for their jobs. Why wouldn't I gameplan, and incent towards a teams weakest link?


There has to be something in the Art of War relating to this...

[Droford]

Originally Posted by Next Big Thing Shut up. The average points per game per NFL team was 22.2 this season. Do you know what it was back in 1985 when everyone was copying the 46? 21.8. 1995? 21.5 Do you know what it was back in 1965? 23.1. The sky is not falling. The changes aren't so drastic that they're affecting the game or making it unwatchable. http://www.pro-football-reference.co...FL/scoring.htm

Looking over the stats, the scoring was the highest its been in the 32 team era dating back to 02, and 3 of the last 4 seasons have been at 22 ppg or more. As for 1985, the following 9 years showed a huge drop off in team average scoring, with at one point the average was 299 points per season vs 344 in 85 and 354 in 2011.

In 1985 there was only 1 QB that threw for over 4,000 yards (Marino). In 2011, there were 10 that threw for over 4,000 and 4 that threw for over 5,000. I would dare say that in the era of protected QBs and rules against defenders that you could see a 6,000 yard passing season from someone in the next couple of years (its only about 30 yards per game more to what Brees did last year to get to 6000). Some of this has come at the expense of the running game..which is another argument entirely.

2011 had 3 of the top 12 highest scoring teams in NFL History (Packers #2 35.0, Saints #4 34.2 and Patriots #12 32.1) 5 of the top 12 are 2007 or later (the 2007 Patriots #1 and 2010 Patriots #10)

The 2011 Bucs were the 7th worst team in points allowed (30.9).

Im a big fan of defense..and you cannot say that the rule changes the nfl has made over the last couple years have been in any favor of the defenses.

[Next Big Thing]

Originally Posted by Droford Looking over the stats, the scoring was the highest its been in the 32 team era dating back to 02, and 3 of the last 4 seasons have been at 22 ppg or more. As for 1985, the following 9 years showed a huge drop off in team average scoring, with at one point the average was 299 points per season vs 344 in 85 and 354 in 2011. In 1985 there was only 1 QB that threw for over 4,000 yards (Marino). In 2011, there were 10 that threw for over 4,000 and 4 that threw for over 5,000. I would dare say that in the era of protected QBs and rules against defenders that you could see a 6,000 yard passing season from someone in the next couple of years (its only about 30 yards per game more to what Brees did last year to get to 6000). Some of this has come at the expense of the running game..which is another argument entirely. 2011 had 3 of the top 12 highest scoring teams in NFL History (Packers #2 35.0, Saints #4 34.2 and Patriots #12 32.1) 5 of the top 12 are 2007 or later (the 2007 Patriots #1 and 2010 Patriots #10) The 2011 Bucs were the 7th worst team in points allowed (30.9). Im a big fan of defense..and you cannot say that the rule changes the nfl has made over the last couple years have been in any favor of the defenses.

You are so flawed. Not just in life, but in the way you present your arguments. For whatever reason, you provide all of this offensive data, but neglect to acknowledge the actual defensive statistics.

All the rules related to hits and quarterback protection were implemented in the 2009 season. That year, the average team scored 21.5 points per game. The Saints, Vikings, Colts and Jets were the teams that made it to the conference championships. All of those teams, except the Saints, had a defenses ranked in the TOP 10. Those were some good offenses in that mix too, so that season would prove your point except for the fact that in the following two seasons, 5 of the 8 teams that played in the Conference championship had better defenses than they did offenses.

In 2010, the average team scored 22 points per game (same PPG as the 2008 year in the period before the rule changes). The Steelers, Jets, Packers and Bears were the teams that made it to the conference championships. All of those teams, except for the Jets, had a defense ranked in the TOP 5. The Jets were #6. Of those teams, only the Packers had a TOP 10 overall offense.

In 2011, the average team scored 22.2 points per game. The Giants, 49ers, Ravens and Patriots made it to the conference championships. The Ravens and 49ers were the #2 and #3 ranked defenses respectively. The Patriots were 15 and the Giants were 25. Neither the Jets or Ravens had TOP 10 offenses either. Don't forget that both of those teams had a shit ton of luck (i.e., fumbles, missed field goals) getting to the Superbowl in those Conference games. It's not like the offenses for the Giants and Patriots went out and won 45-6.

So how is it that top defenses are hampered, yet in the three seasons since the major rule changes, 9 of the 12 teams playing in the conference championships were TOP 10 defensively and in many cases carried their offenses? Also, the NFL is a copycat league. With every team running some version of the Spread, it makes sense for passing yards to go up. However, if you look at the number of total touchdowns top defenses gave up in 2011 and compare them to the total number of touchdowns in 2001, 2002, 2003, etc... you'll see that the numbers are less or almost identical.

[FearedSanctity]

stfu NBT. Why make logical and informed statements when you can make over dramatic exaggerations?! COME ON MAN, GET WITH IT

[Next Big Thing]

Originally Posted by FearedSanctity stfu NBT. Why make logical and informed statements when you can make over dramatic exaggerations?! COME ON MAN, GET WITH IT

Haha! I guess that's why Narc calls me Storm.

[Blakeamus]

You know, I heard the audio and to be perfectly honest...5% of what was said shocked me. Going after a man with a concussion or who had a torn ACL is real pathetic of Williams. I have given up on the team that I've always followed and became really excited for the past 3 seasons. I find it funny though that the day of the appeal, this audio comes out. Where was this when the cat was out of the bag?

[Ermaximus]

Just never let Williams coach again anywhere and this problem might go away.

[Kris P Lettus]

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7781880

[Kris P Lettus]

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7782050&s=espn

[Kris P Lettus]

Why was it not a big deal after the NFC Championship for that Giants DB to say they had "tested" Kyle Wilson's concussions??

[Next Big Thing]

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus Why was it not a big deal after the NFC Championship for that Giants DB to say they had "tested" Kyle Wilson's concussions??

Seriously Kris P, you're my dude, but what are you not understanding here?

The clips you posted are meaningless, because I don't think anyone disagrees with those points. I don't think serious NFL fans are taken aback by the language, euphemisms or metaphors and if they are, they need to open their eyes and ears or watch a halfway decent sports movie. I don't care about locker room rhetoric, it's a violent sport. The NFL Network runs blooper reels of Gruden rattling off curse words like it's a highlight. Saying something about a player's injury and testing it, is a part of the strategy in almost any sport and if the injured player is in some sort of long term danger, he shouldn't be in the game.

My problem (and I think the problem most people have) is the fact that Williams instructed players to go after the ACL of another player and told his guys to hit Gore in the head knowing damn well the effect of concussions. It's magnified due to the fact that the Saints had a bounty program for three years that paid guys for things like "Knock Outs" and "Cart Offs." Even the people who say "that's just a part of the language of the game" concede he crossed the line when he talked about going after Crabtree's knee and hitting Gore in the head.

[Kris P Lettus]

How are you not understanding that this same conversation happens in more locker rooms than just the Saints'??

I'm not condoning what he said by any means, but it is pretty ridiculous how seemingly 70% of NFL fans are reacting to it..

The only mistake Williams made (besides letting the Steve Gleason documentarian in the meeting) was "specifying".. Pretty much the same thing as saying "GO OUT THERE AND MURDER SOMEBODY" etc..

[Next Big Thing]

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus How are you not understanding that this same conversation happens in more locker rooms than just the Saints'?

The idea that coaches telling players to go after the ACLs of opposing players is common is inane and every player who speaks on this, including Mike Golic and Tim Hasselbeck, say they've never heard such things and don't agree.

"Go out there and murder somebody" (i.e., hit him hard and dominate) is not the same as "Hit him in the ACL" (i.e. hit him in a specific area that can end his career). If you believe that is something that is common in locker rooms or those two things are the same, you're naive or your ability to comprehend the difference is distorted by the fact that you're a fan of the team involved.

[Kris P Lettus]

Originally Posted by Next Big Thing The idea that coaches telling players to go after the ACLs of opposing players is common is inane and every player who speaks on this, including Mike Golic and Tim Hasselbeck, say they've never heard such things and don't agree.

What??

Golic said that one of the offensive coaches requested the offense to go after an opposing player's knees at halftime of a game..

[Next Big Thing]

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus What?? Golic said that one of the offensive coaches requested the offense to go after an opposing player's knees at halftime of a game..

Golic also said that he didn't agree with it and none of the players in the locker room followed the directive. If you listened to that show, he cited it as the one time he heard it, it was in response to a dirty play committed on one of their players before the half and none of the players followed through with the directive. Dirty play garners retaliation in almost all sports. I remember playing middle school ball and our coach telling the entire defensive line to pile on the tackle because he kept hitting us in the nuts. I don't have a problem with that because AGAIN, if you play dirty like that, you're assuming the risk that someone will respond accordingly.

Going after Crabtree's ACL, before the game even starts is premeditated and designed to take him out. It wasn't like Williams was telling guys to do it because he was out there making crack back blocks on DBs. Again, you need to be able to look at the context and circumstances before you try to make a parallel.

Furthermore, he said numerous times on his show today and in the past that he was against targeting players in their knees and it's an unwritten rule with players not to do that. Maybe I should have made a distinction, but I have no interest in arguing semantics or the Kane Knight approach of straw man arguing. All I know is guys like Darren Woodson, Warren Sapp, Michael Irvin, Brian Billick, etc... have all said he was wrong for targeting a player's knee in a premeditated manner like that and if that is common locker room rhetoric I think it's safe to assume those guys wouldn't have such positions on the matter.

[Kris P Lettus]

I didn't say I agree with it, and have actually said the ACL part was the worst of it..

I'm just saying, acting like Greg Williams is the first coach to act like this and the Saints were the first team to do something like this is just being ignorant..

[CSL]

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus I didn't say I agree with it, and have actually said the ACL part was the worst of it.. I'm just saying, acting like Greg Williams is the first coach to act like this and the Saints were the first team to do something like this is just being ignorant..

nobody is acting like that. it's not like people can chastise every single coach in the league without any kind of basis. your guys are just simply the ones who got caught.

[Next Big Thing]

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus I didn't say I agree with it, and have actually said the ACL part was the worst of it.. I'm just saying, acting like Greg Williams is the first coach to act like this and the Saints were the first team to do something like this is just being ignorant..

He isn't and the Saints weren't the first team to do it. However, the Saints are the team that is on the record as having a bounty program with tens of thousands of documents including emails to Payton that prove its existence over a three year period. The audio is from a Saints defensive meeting.

So yeah, the Saints probably aren't the only team that had something like that, but they are the only team that got caught at the moment and trying to say "Yeah, but look at what this guy from this team said from that one game" or "They were doing it too" doesn't really change any of the facts as they pertain to the Saints situation.

[Kris P Lettus]

Also, I'm sure when this whole mess was first mentioned and when the stories started to come out, was when Peyton and Co decided to let him move on..

[Kris P Lettus]

[Kris P Lettus]

But it should change how fans are reacting to it..

[Kris P Lettus]

Even though he played for the Bucs, I still love the guy..

Warren Sapp files for bankruptcy..

Was the painting large or the women in it??

[Kris P Lettus]

Or the woman who painted it..

[FearedSanctity]

Incarcerated Bob ‏ @incarceratedbob **NFL UPDATED RUMOR**Source: Jets shopping Mark Sanchez (HARD) so far minimal interest nobody biting yet. Source confirms Rex wants him gone