DISCUSSION: Invasion II (Raw vs. SD), Vince Russo's "philosophy", etc.

[Splaya]

I've said for months to get rid of the Roster Split. Mainly because people only watch one show to see certain people. It also would make a big difference if they could make SD live instead of taped. I read the spoilers every week and it makes me not want to watch my TV. But if it were Live every week, similar to what Raw is, then I'm sure I would watch SD a hell of a lot more. I mean shit, RVD used to be my 3rd fav wrestler (2nd to Michaels and Jericho) and I saw him for the first time on SD since he got "traded". And you know why. Because I read the spoilers, see what kind of shit is on before or after his match, and then say fuck it altogether. I think by ending the roster split, the WWE can reobatain those 5.0+ ratings they used to get even without other competition. Until then they will be 4.0 and below.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by The Playa I've said for months to get rid of the Roster Split. Mainly because people only watch one show to see certain people. It also would make a big difference if they could make SD live instead of taped. I read the spoilers every week and it makes me not want to watch my TV. But if it were Live every week, similar to what Raw is, then I'm sure I would watch SD a hell of a lot more. I mean shit, RVD used to be my 3rd fav wrestler (2nd to Michaels and Jericho) and I saw him for the first time on SD since he got "traded". And you know why. Because I read the spoilers, see what kind of shit is on before or after his match, and then say fuck it altogether. I think by ending the roster split, the WWE can reobatain those 5.0+ ratings they used to get even without other competition. Until then they will be 4.0 and below.

Agreed.

I think one problem that the WWE has right now, is that they are not spending enough time on gimmick creation/storyline development.

At the last Smackdown PPV for instance, WHY ON EARTH was Mordecai feuding with Hardcore Holly? (while Kenzo Suzuki was feuding with Billy Gunn). Granted - Suzuki and Mordecai have decent enough gimmicks to capture the interests of the fans (for now), but there was no build up fior the feud!

Back in the day - a LOT of time was spent on building rivalries. Jericho/Benoit, Rock/HHH, Austin/Vince, Austin/Taker, Shamrock/Owen Hart, Austin/Corporation, etc.,etc.

While we HAVE seen Triple H/HBK and Angle/Lesnar within the last few years, I still think a LOT leaves to be desired in terms of rivalries.


Lastly - I think a MAJOR problem with the WWE right now is that they are not giving the fans what they want. Why are guys like Jericho and RVD being misused? Why are the WWE continuosly using guys like Renee Dupree, Batista, Edge, etc. in LONG matches? (when NONE of these guys are 'over' enough to warrant such a large amount of TV time).

Glad you're back Heyman : Missed the Discussions.


Okay, First let me just say that I have been a fan of the roster split for a while now, mostly because I love the way the two brands interact with each other on the four major PPV's of the year. It was cool seeing Lesner and Goldberg interact, it was cool seeing Benoit and Guerrero interact. Those interactions really meant something and you felt like the two brands were really at war.

Also, I think the roster split let Eddie Guerrero and Benoit have a chance at winning the big one, which they did. So in that sense, it was a + to have a split.

But, I think you're right in it's time to end this shit. It's really not worth it anymore. I mean, when you have guys like Holly AND Gunn wrestling in singles matches on PPV's, you have to ask yourself, what is going on here? I think the WWE will benefit from reuniting the rosters again because they can get rid of a lot guys and save some money. They don't really need half of their roster. Maybe even get rid of Smackdown all together and go back to just Raw. I think less wrestling right now would be better for the product. You don't need to give the viewer a ton of wrestling each week when the ratings are sliding like they have been. Maybe even lower the PPV's a year too. Something has got to change.

So, yes, I do think they should eliminate the split. Put the guys on TV that the fans care about and eliminate everyone else. You'll have a show filled with the Benoit, Guerrero, HHH, Eugene, Cena, Flair, Orton, some tag teams, and a couple of others. This won't make fans flip the channel because you have Harcore Holly wresling Charlie Haas or Tori wresling Sable. The Hardcore Title will be ok to bring back because it gives something for all those other guys to do as well. You can still have Crusierweights on the show too. But, I really think they need to give us less wrestling and go back to how it was in the old days.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon [b][COLOR=RoyalBlue]Glad you're back Heyman : Missed the Discussions.

What the heck happened to the Forum Battle War? Or Team Legend Killer for that matter?

p.s. Did we win?

Okay, First let me just say that I have been a fan of the roster split for a while now, mostly because I love the way the two brands interact with each other on the four major PPV's of the year.

True, but why not have that 'quality' on every PPV? Also - while it's great to have that 'interaction' every 4 months, what about the other PPV's? A lot of people don't get both Raw and Smackdown (only one or the other). With exclusive brand PPV's, you give a lot of people NO REASON to order the exclusive PPV.

It was cool seeing Lesner and Goldberg interact, it was cool seeing Benoit and Guerrero interact. Those interactions really meant something and you felt like the two brands were really at war.

Right after the February PPV (this past Februrary), I would have built both shows around the Goldberg/Lesnar feud (had the two men still been within the company). Furthermore - I would've had them be the 'main-event'. Don't get me wrong - Guerrero/Angle was great, but I genuinely feel that Lesnar/Goldberg would've been FAR more marketable. I also would've made Lesnar/Goldberg do a heel/face switch (in which Lesnar went over as champ as well). Perhaps this would have convinced Lesnar to stay.

Also, I think the roster split let Eddie Guerrero and Benoit have a chance at winning the big one, which they did. So in that sense, it was a + to have a split.

True, but neither one of them have really drawn in numbers......so what's the point? Granted - Benoit hasn't had the proper TV time while Smackdown lost Angle and Lesnar, but still........

-It's not like Benoit gets Austin or Rock like pops to warrant getting more TV time
-Do the fans really see Eddie Guerrero as an 'extraordinary' figure as they do The Rock, Austin, Hogan, or Lesnar?

But, I think you're right in it's time to end this shit. It's really not worth it anymore. I mean, when you have guys like Holly AND Gunn wrestling in singles matches on PPV's, you have to ask yourself, what is going on here? I think the WWE will benefit from reuniting the rosters again because they can get rid of a lot guys and save some money. They don't really need half of their roster. Maybe even get rid of Smackdown all together and go back to just Raw. I think less wrestling right now would be better for the product. You don't need to give the viewer a ton of wrestling each week when the ratings are sliding like they have been. Maybe even lower the PPV's a year too. Something has got to change. So, yes, I do think they should eliminate the split. Put the guys on TV that the fans care about and eliminate everyone else. You'll have a show filled with the Benoit, Guerrero, HHH, Eugene, Cena, Flair, Orton, some tag teams, and a couple of others. This won't make fans flip the channel because you have Harcore Holly wresling Charlie Haas or Tori wresling Sable. The Hardcore Title will be ok to bring back because it gives something for all those other guys to do as well. You can still have Crusierweights on the show too. But, I really think they need to give us less wrestling and go back to how it was in the old days.

Agreed.

It's just common sense.

If the wheel ain't broke, why fix it?

Things were perfect in 2000 (or pretty damned close to it).

While The Rock and Triple H were the cornerstones of the show that year, it's not like the fans didn't care about Angle and Jericho (who clearly played second fiddle to The Rock and Triple H). Angle and Jericho could have easily have taken over their spots in due time.........with proper booking and with no roster split.

Okay, now let's say you combined the rosters again and you have everyone on Raw. Here's the type of show you're looking at.

Ortob/Cena: IC Title Feud.
Christain, RVD, Jericho, Edge, Bradshaw, Dupree, Haas, Mordecai, Benjamin etc.. all contenders for the IC Title or just below it. Let them all have their feuds

Tag Teams: See, here's where a big + can come in with combined rosters. First, I would make a Top Heel Tag Team out of two good midcard OR UPPERCARD wrestlers. Maybe Hardy/Christian, Maybe HBK/Jericho(this would fk'n own) Maybe Angle/Benoit., Maybe Kane/Matt Hardy (this is in you're suggesstion about Hardy joining Kane I just read). I don't know, but you need a super team like this. And then you have all the other teams that are together now.


Eddie/Benoit/Angle/HBK/Taker/ HHH are all the guys going for the World Title, so you have some #1 contender feuds and then you have the Champ and the #1 Contender on the show doing interviews, but not fighting/[

Then you have you're Crusierweight matches and you're Hardcore matches. You also have some women's matches too. Get rid of the shitty women wrestlers though and just make them managers.

That's a hell of a show you can put on. You can do a lot of stuff with just these select guys.

Get rid off:
Holly
Gunn
Kenzo
Rico(he's had his run)
Jackie
Tori
Kidman (unless in a tag team)
Rosey
ETC........I can't think right now/COLOR]


So they're you have it. Sounds good to me. Also, you might be able to get HHH out of that top heel spot and put someone else in there with this (slight chance though)

And Heyman, to answer you're reply to my Benoit Guerrero Discussion in my last post, I think the fans really care about Guerrero and I would go with him as the top babyface in the company to feud with HHH if the rosters were combines. But, it was just nice to see Benoit and Guerrero get the World Titles, because they more then deserves it.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon Okay, now let's say you combined the rosters again and you have everyone on Raw. Here's the type of show you're looking at. Ortob/Cena: IC Title Feud. Christain, RVD, Jericho, Edge, Bradshaw, Dupree, Haas, Mordecai, Benjamin etc.. all contenders for the IC Title or just below it. Let them all have their feuds.

Orton/Cena = :drool. That could definitely be the just as heated as The Rock/Triple H from 1998 (or Jericho/Benoit from 2000).

Tag Teams: See, here's where a big + can come in with combined rosters. First, I would make a Top Heel Tag Team out of two good midcard OR UPPERCARD wrestlers. Maybe Hardy/Christian, Maybe HBK/Jericho(this would fk'n own) Maybe Angle/Benoit., Maybe Kane/Matt Hardy (this is in you're suggesstion about Hardy joining Kane I just read). I don't know, but you need a super team like this. And then you have all the other teams that are together now.

Sounds good. I think it would be nice to see Edge/Christian get back together. Ditto for Benjamin and Hass.

Eddie/Benoit/Angle/HBK/Taker/ HHH are all the guys going for the World Title, so you have some #1 contender feuds and then you have the Champ and the #1 Contender on the show doing interviews, but not fighting/

I'd keep Taker as a "main-event" guy, but not a guy who will actually win the title (kind of like what he's been doing since 2000 for the most part). If Angle can't wrestle full-time anymore, then I'd use him to put guys over.

Then you have you're Crusierweight matches and you're Hardcore matches. You also have some women's matches too. Get rid of the shitty women wrestlers though and just make them managers.

Agreed with this. I'd put most of the women's matches on Heat. Unless the WWE REALLY put an effort into their CW division, then I'd relegate them to velocity (for the most part) as well.

That's a hell of a show you can put on. You can do a lot of stuff with just these select guys. Get rid off: Holly Gunn Kenzo Rico(he's had his run) Jackie Tori Kidman (unless in a tag team) Rosey ETC........I can't think right now

I'd keep Kenzo for right now. Remember - he has POTENTIAL within the fans' eyes (he's still a new guy with a decent gimmick, and hasn't been pushed yet). The guy still has room to grow.

So they're you have it. Sounds good to me. Also, you might be able to get HHH out of that top heel spot and put someone else in there with this (slight chance though) And Heyman, to answer you're reply to my Benoit Guerrero Discussion in my last post, I think the fans really care about Guerrero and I would go with him as the top babyface in the company to feud with HHH if the rosters were combines. But, it was just nice to see Benoit and Guerrero get the World Titles, because they more then deserves it.

Personally? I don't think Guerrero is that great as a baby face world champ. I don't like this more 'serious' and 'emotional' side of Eddie (where the WWE tries to get the fans to sympathize with Eddie past).

In my view, Eddie was getting much better heal heat (and face pops) when he was 'less serious' and clowned around much more often.


In my 'perfect' world, I'd have one of the following:


a) John Cena becomes a HEEL World champion in about 9-10 months or so (with a unified roster).

b) Eddie Guerrero becomes a HEEL World Champion with a unified roster (with Chavo, Rey Mysterio, and another Latino guy backing him up to form a heel Latino stable).


A face Rock verses any two of these guys would be damn entertaining.