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Old 08-06-2016, 09:03 PM   #121
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I agree with everything Maluco said.
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Old 08-06-2016, 09:07 PM   #122
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Think all the women performers, and guys like American Alpha did well "training" and "acclimating" in NXT before coming to the main roster.

Yeah, other guys like Owens and Zayn could have gone straight to the main roster like AJ Styles did and been fine without NXT, but it definitely still is a good training ground for some guys/gals.
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Old 08-06-2016, 09:41 PM   #123
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I'd argue a lot of those problems with NXT is more due to how bad main roster booking has been for almost all the call-ups since the NXT era started.

Do agree that the bulk of those who have been very successful already had a good amount of prior experience on the indies (Styles, Owens) or had the charisma to flourish with the WWE style (ex. Enzo).
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Old 08-06-2016, 09:54 PM   #124
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But is that not the point though? Guys like Tyler Breeze, Ascension, and now, Vaudevillians have been in their comfortable NXT enviroment and it has failed completely to prepare them to get over on the main brand. The guys that are getting over are the guys that are coming in ready from their years on the indie circuit.

Even the females, like Paige, Becky, and even a very young Sasha, started their training outside WWE and were having regular matches for different promotions before they came in.

Charlotte is the only 100% WWE/NXT made star on the roster...and she just happens to be Ric Flair's daughter. Its safe to say she could have learned anywhere and that her name opened doors. (Although I think she is great so wouldn't deny her being able to say she earned it herself)

Basically, does NXT do anything that wrestling for smaller promotions doesn't?

I would argue the opposite, I think the NXT bubble actually hinders performers and doesn't adequately prepare them for what's to come, or for what works in big arenas on the main roster. When it comes to sinking or swimming, they sink and they don't know how to change it up for stop the slide.

The guys who swim were swimming for a long time and in many different places before they arrived in WWE. They know how to adapt, react and work crowds.

Up to this point in time, NXT is a failure in what it set out to be.
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Old 08-06-2016, 10:17 PM   #125
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I see your point, Malaco, but you're forgetting about alot of guys. Bray Wyatt, Big E, Rusev, Xavier Woods have all been fairly successful WWE bred guys and Neville as an "indy" guy hasn't gotten over. Its more of a case by case deal.
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Old 08-06-2016, 10:20 PM   #126
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Woods was in TNA before NXT as Consequences Creed.
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Old 08-06-2016, 10:23 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
I'd argue a lot of those problems with NXT is more due to how bad main roster booking has been for almost all the call-ups since the NXT era started.
I've always said the main reason NXT is successful is because its a 1 hour show once a week with a PPV once a quarter or so. You can't be bored of anyone because no one is featured every week. Much closer to back in the day when you had no idea when you were going to get to see your favorite guys in action.

It also holds off on all the big matches, so you don't have to have a program run into the ground where they fight over and over and over and none of the matches have any consequences.
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Old 08-06-2016, 10:23 PM   #128
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Woods was in TNA before NXT as Consequences Creed.
Didn't know that
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Old 08-06-2016, 10:25 PM   #129
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Teamed with Lethal under Nash's tutelage as Lethal Consequences
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Old 08-06-2016, 10:29 PM   #130
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He also had a team with Ron "The Truth" Killings called "Truth and Consequences".
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Old 08-06-2016, 10:32 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
On the October 1, 2009 episode of Impact!, Creed and Lethal were part of a 5-man ladder match for a future X Division Title match. During the match, Amazing Red, who ended up winning the match, performed a hurricanrana driver, which caused Creed to projectile vomit after his head hit the mat.[19]
Video:

SPOILER: show
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Old 08-06-2016, 10:32 PM   #132
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Now that I think of it Nash didn't have anything to do with Lethal Consequences. It was Black Machismo where Nash was involved.
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Old 08-07-2016, 12:47 AM   #133
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I dislike the Wyatt stuff... I turn off the T.V. when they come on. It always seems to cartoony and cliche to me, long rambling promos with no real point to them.
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Old 08-07-2016, 12:59 AM   #134
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Red face ...
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Biker Taker was cool. He's lucky no one stole his bike tho.
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Old 08-07-2016, 01:08 AM   #135
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Hulk Hogan too
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Old 08-07-2016, 01:13 AM   #136
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Yeah, thought about posting that one as well...but already feel like way too many of my responses to posts are videos trying to reference the topic of people's posts...really want to cut back on that...
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Old 08-07-2016, 01:14 AM   #137
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I agree with the Finn Balor stuff. The dude is a good wrestler and when he first showed up and did the demon entrance, it was novel and kind of cool. I liked how they saved it for special events and had him build up an undefeated streak under the make-up. You could tell they always wanted to market this civilian identity/superhero persona dynamic to be something resembling a franchise player. I'm not knocking his abilities, but the way it has ultimately been presented is kind of boring and is largely responsible for my disinterest in NXT.

I actually somewhat like that he's not loud and bombastic on the microphone, as it makes him seem like a Legitimately Humble Actual Athlete(R) instead of being some goofy gimmick. But there's just something white-bread about it. I kind of want to see a Crown Prince of Crime Balor on the main roster robbing Seth Rollins of the Universal Title (ugh) at SummerSlam, since I believe he can show much more charisma as a cocky asshole with all the talent in the world that hides behind his Club; but I have a feeling they're going all-in with heroic conqueror Balor.
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Old 08-07-2016, 01:23 AM   #138
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I'm not a big fan of the WWE's current in-ring product. I used to be a bit of a mark for snowflakes, but in my more mature and alcoholic years I've grown a fondness for simple things like the old-school style of one guy punching another guy in the head and him actually selling it like he got punched in the head. Some guys need to fall for others to stand tall, and it seems like every wrestler in the WWE can kick out of every other wrestler's finishing move.

I paid money to watch a highly commended EVOLVE show a few months ago. It was the one that had a whole bunch of injuries affect the booking, so SoCal Val and her Premiere Athletes or whatever they were called came out and had consecutive matches. I'll give it to the guys -- they all worked really hard and tore it up, but with that being said, I was fatigued by the time the third match came along, and nothing had been built to. Why is my birthday special if you're going to deep-throat me every time?

I know I'm not alone in thinking this way about wrestling in a broad sense, but very often I hear the phrase "Well, at least the wrestling is good," but it can no longer keep my attention because great matches don't mean anything.
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Old 08-07-2016, 03:07 AM   #139
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Agree with both Maluco and Noid here.

I'd also say that everybody coming up these days are all pretty much similar in look/build/body/style, with a few exceptions, but nobody really has that larger than life look anymore. I'm not saying that I want to see everyone look like they're on the juice or just left the gym but I think they've gone to the other extreme. Since CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, now almost everyone looks too average and they all seem short as hell, like all the talent they just pulled in off the street or a couch somewhere. Hell, even HBK and Austin were more cut/built than a lot of the guys today. Sami Zayn, Bray, Owens, Balor, Corbin, Enzo, they're all either short or look like they spend most of their time on a couch or both.
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Old 08-07-2016, 04:08 AM   #140
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Feel like Bray Wyatt's look suits his gimmick really well.

I am also not a huge fan of finn balor. He is capable in tne ring ans on tne mic, but nothing about him really stands out. He doesn't have that unique presence that guys like shinsuke and Joe have. Balor is cookie cutter outside of his entrance, which will only take him so far.
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Old 08-07-2016, 06:01 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maluco View Post
But is that not the point though? Guys like Tyler Breeze, Ascension, and now, Vaudevillians have been in their comfortable NXT enviroment and it has failed completely to prepare them to get over on the main brand. The guys that are getting over are the guys that are coming in ready from their years on the indie circuit.

Even the females, like Paige, Becky, and even a very young Sasha, started their training outside WWE and were having regular matches for different promotions before they came in.

Charlotte is the only 100% WWE/NXT made star on the roster...and she just happens to be Ric Flair's daughter. Its safe to say she could have learned anywhere and that her name opened doors. (Although I think she is great so wouldn't deny her being able to say she earned it herself)

Basically, does NXT do anything that wrestling for smaller promotions doesn't?

I would argue the opposite, I think the NXT bubble actually hinders performers and doesn't adequately prepare them for what's to come, or for what works in big arenas on the main roster. When it comes to sinking or swimming, they sink and they don't know how to change it up for stop the slide.

The guys who swim were swimming for a long time and in many different places before they arrived in WWE. They know how to adapt, react and work crowds.

Up to this point in time, NXT is a failure in what it set out to be.
There is some truth to this, and I recently found myself questioning if NXT has achieved anything OVW/DSW/FCW hadn't already been achieving in past years (albeit with an enhanced production giving us a great hour of wrestling every week).

But there's also a lot to be said about how the guys are presented when they arrive on the main roster. Owens, Zayn, and now Balor were all given purpose and a push; Owens went over Cena in his first match! Where as the likes of The Vaudevillains, and Breeze quietly debuted on SmackDown (NotLive) and were never given any sense of purpose; there were so many things they could have done with Breeze to establish him as a character prior to an in-ring debut and subsequent jobber status.

I think guys like Zayn, Owens, et al know how to "maximise their minutes" because of all their experience elsewhere, but WWE help by putting them a step ahead of other NXT graduates.
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Old 08-07-2016, 07:04 AM   #142
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I want to thank everybody for the contributions, we got to read many of them on the show, which is now available at the following link:

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean....ain_Part_1.mp3

Join us as we discuss your "Against The Grain" opinions on all things pro wrestling! We talk about a wide variety of topics this week - is Ric Flair a routine man with an elevated reputation? Is Shawn Michaels merely "solid"? We cover a wide number of your views on Lucha Underground and intergender wrestling, Steve Austin's heel run, Rob Van Dam, Bob Backlund, William Regal, Umaga, Tyson Vs. Austin, criticisms of Finn Balor and Sasha Banks, a debate on modern in-ring styles and a litany of other issues. With a ton more on the way next week in Part 2, this one was a great deal of fun, check it out!




Crazy Like A Fox - The Definitive Chronicle of Brian Pillman 20 Years Later
**Featuring interviews with members of the Pillman family, Dave Meltzer, Kim Wood, Raven, Jim Cornette, Mark Madden, Shane Douglas, Mark Coleman, Alex Marvez, Les Thatcher and many more close friends and colleagues**
Available on Amazon now:
http://amzn.to/2h93SxL
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Old 08-07-2016, 05:40 PM   #143
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I agree with Maluco, Noid, et al... it's a major reason that I watch the Network archives moreso than the present day action. I love the stories, the camp value, and that wrestling didn't take itself so seriously. Stuff like Tuesday Night Titans, 96-2002 RAWS, and some of the other stuff in the vault from older promotions is just stellar and in my wheelhouse these days.
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Old 08-07-2016, 05:43 PM   #144
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The athleticism is there, but the character work and storytelling isn't.
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Old 08-07-2016, 06:31 PM   #145
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Sounds to me like you're all just pining for "the good old days" and have outgrown the product. I'm not saying I don't agree with you, I do to a degree, but I think our assertions that wrestling used to be better are skewed by nostalgia and a belief that the way we're used to things is inherently better because it's our way. Ask most kids in the target audience and old school matches bore them. Kids today have a different mindset than kids from the past.
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Old 08-07-2016, 08:02 PM   #146
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It's not about matches being better, because the athleticism of today's guys is exponentially better. However, the entertainment value is not there, the emotional ties to wrestlers is almost non-existent, save for a handful of guys. I just prefer stories and characters that enhance great matches. Case in point: Cena/Punk was stellar because we cared, there was so much involved. Roman Reigns is boring, has an undefined character, is competent in-ring-wise, and his story lines suck. Tag lines and buzzwords like "I'm not a good guy...", Underdog from the Underground, and the lone wolf are not characters nor do they incite excitement.
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Old 08-07-2016, 08:50 PM   #147
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Agree with above. The art of psychology and storytelling is gone. Guys like HBK and Bret Hart were not just technically good, but they knew how and when to sell, they dragged you into the match and emotionally involved you in it. Nowadays you get hit with chair, a DDT and a big finisher and you pop up within 10 seconds to go into the next sequence. That's obviously just a small part of what's going on, but nobody seems to know/or is allowed, to bring emotion into matches.

HBK/Flair is still one of my favourite matches to this day. Flair was all but done and HBK was in his latter years, but what a story. I am no mark, but was on my feet at the end an explaining the whole story to my then girlfriend who was watching. Then HBK/Taker, again, the story sucked you in. It wasn't a one off.

Even back in the day, a Benoit/Jericho clinic was great to watch...but give me a Mankind title win any day of the week.

Technical wrestling is such a small part of it. Matches like Zayn/Nakamura and the likes are fantastic to watch, but they are soon forgotten. It's the stories that leave a legacy and are remembered forever.

That's whats missing from today's product I think. Nobody tells stories anymore, and I don't think anyone knows how to. The likes of Hart/HBK/Flair/Steamboat should be down in NXT teaching that!
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Old 08-07-2016, 08:57 PM   #148
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Scott Hall should have a position of prominence.
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Old 08-07-2016, 08:58 PM   #149
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Today's actual wrestling matches are the best that they have ever been in history.
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Old 08-07-2016, 09:01 PM   #150
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Today's actual wrestling matches are the best that they have ever been in history.
Move for move for sure.
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Old 08-07-2016, 09:02 PM   #151
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Yeah, I see plenty of great wrestling matches. Are the fans as hot and the stories as good? No. That's the difference.

Saw a bit of an old Summerslam on the Network the other day..... Virgil fighting Ted DiBiase and it was not a "good match", but the fans were completely rabid and they obviously had the story going behind them.
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Old 08-07-2016, 09:03 PM   #152
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Let us not disparage the rassling. That is better than ever. It is the story and the fans being jaded arseholes.
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Old 08-07-2016, 09:06 PM   #153
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Part of the problem is the whole production and the commentary. There isn't that elite storyteller on on the call, to help make everything memorable. Part of what makes moments like the infamous hell in a cell match iconic would be Jim Ross's genuine reaction.
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Old 08-07-2016, 09:18 PM   #154
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What do you see as something most people enjoyed (a wrestler, a show, an angle, a gimmick, etc) but didn't click with you at all? What was it and why didn't it work for you?
Hulk Hogan's face turn against The Rock. I have always been pretty meh on Hogan, even as a child. His return to "face" popularity was unbearably cheesy and lame for me and brought on an extended period of me not watching consistently.

nWo Hogan was, for about 85% of his work in-ring and on the mic, pretty great to me. The step back to Real American was a jump-sharking moment in my mind. Could not accept.
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Old 08-07-2016, 09:21 PM   #155
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I agree with Swiss. I also thought that the Wrestlemania X8 match was boring.
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Old 08-08-2016, 01:39 AM   #156
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Shouldn't that be "shark-jumping" though?
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Old 08-08-2016, 01:53 AM   #157
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YES.
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Old 08-08-2016, 02:14 AM   #158
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Agree with both Maluco and Noid here.

I'd also say that everybody coming up these days are all pretty much similar in look/build/body/style, with a few exceptions, but nobody really has that larger than life look anymore. I'm not saying that I want to see everyone look like they're on the juice or just left the gym but I think they've gone to the other extreme. Since CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, now almost everyone looks too average and they all seem short as hell, like all the talent they just pulled in off the street or a couch somewhere. Hell, even HBK and Austin were more cut/built than a lot of the guys today. Sami Zayn, Bray, Owens, Balor, Corbin, Enzo, they're all either short or look like they spend most of their time on a couch or both.
But one of the problems was that *everyone* had to have that "larger than life" look- like obscenely tall bodybuilders- , and it made decent sized people like the guys you mentioned seem comparatively smaller and smaller until it became problematic. Now, since you've seen so many big men over time, you're inclined to think "smaller" guys all look like Taz, even if someone is like 6'1".

I said before if WWE had some magic anacroistic ability to pull some of the more notable big men in history into the early 80's (tall like Taker, Nash, Show, Khali, El Gigante, or Nathan Jones, or meaty like Earthquake, Tugboat, Mark Henry...) Andre wouldn't seem nearly as impressive, because he wouldn't be a lone giant in a world of normal sized folk. He still had his intangibles, sure, but his immediate attention demanding presence wouldn't command nearly as much because there would have been others like him. The perception of size has slowly been swayed over the last 40 years to a cartoonish degree, and now it looks "weird" that there is an attempt to correct that with an influx and focus on more normal-heighted people.

Then, you also have to reconcile the fact that even "small" has to sometimes be justified. It is downright insulting to some still that DB or Punk were World Heavyweight Champsions, but will fondly remember Hart or Michaels, who really weren't all that fucking big themselves. Guys like Piper or Jake Roberts never really had a "ripped" physique. Look back at a guy like Harley Race, who is arguably considered both one of the all-time greats AND one of the toughest motherfuckers to walk the planet, and he didn't exactly look like he was chistled out of granite. He looked like a middle manager who had a bad day at work, had a few beers, a couple cigars, then decide he was going down to the arena that night to let off some steam.

We've been told so much, directly or indirectly, that for someone to be World Champion material, they have to look a particular way, that when people come along that might have what it takes except a particular set of genetic, they get arbitrarily rejected. And when I say World Champion material, I don't mean they immediately get the belt and get a Hogan run... I simply mean that when the next "OH MY GOD, SO MANY INJURIES/ABSENCES" tide rolls around, they won't be trying to suddenly elevate people into higher echelons out of necessity that nobody is buying because they didn't take the time before to even TRY to sell them to the fans.
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Old 08-08-2016, 02:17 AM   #159
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I agree with Swiss. I also thought that the Wrestlemania X8 match was boring.
Had to be there I guess.
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Old 08-08-2016, 02:46 AM   #160
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I think they are slowly trying to bring back reasons to make you care outside of just wins and belts again. I gave a shit about the Shield triple threat. I gave a shit about Owens/Zayn and right now with the promos and the angle of nobody believing he can do it, I give a shit about Ziggler.

Hell, away from WWE, I care about almost everyone in Lucha Underground because every one of them has a reason to be fighting in the temple and quite often, there's a good reason why you want one of the guys to win, even though it's usually written in a way that means in terms of interesting story, it could go either way.

It feels like they are aiming for longer term goals again and giving everyone on a card a reason to fight other than giving them a PPV payday. I'm pretty optimistic right now.
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