Jim Cornette / Mick Foley

[#1-norm-fan]

I don't think Cornette has ever excused Vince making a mockery of wrestling. He talks shit about it constantly.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan I don't think Cornette has ever excused Vince making a mockery of wrestling. He talks shit about it constantly.

Yeah, basically this. People get blinders up when they talk about Cornette. Just look at the replies you get from people who immediately go to the false "old man yelling at clouds" memes, when what Cornette is really doing is calling for logic.

I think his spiels against Omega, whilst they are fun, are very harsh. Omega is overrated and does seem to be a bit of a dolt, frankly, but if you black-balled everybody he does dumb stuff, we'd have Xavier Woods taken out for the trust fall, Mick Foley taken out for the dick flip (although that might be for the best at this point), Shawn Michaels for the Curtain Call (HHH wouldn't be a loss), etc.

I think Cornette directly attributes the death of wrestling (and keep in mind he is speaking in hyperbolic terms, you idiots who would jump on this and be like "well, why does the WWE still even exist then?") to Vince McMahon's responses to the steroid scandal in the 90s -- claiming to be Disney and put smiles on faces. This idea that he exonerates Vince yet would punish Omega is a bit of a false assertion.

A better comparison would be Pete Dunne. Corny loves his work, yet he does dumb video game shit. He's probably just unaware of that though, and would blast Dunne for that, if it's as goofy as Omega's (if it's just dressing up or presenting that aesthetic, that's different to actually trying to do hadoukens and shit). Or Jay Lethal -- Cornette loves him now, but Black Machismo was pretty dumb. That being said, it was Jay Lethal putting on an act, and not so much "OMG! This act is real!"

I dunno, I think the accusations of hypocrisy are exaggerated conveniences for those who would try to circumvent Corny's actual points. And, as I've said in the past, it seems like members of the IWC actually have problems wrapping their head around it. A few people might get insulted by this, but I think he's just generally smarter than most people. Not even in a wrestling sense, but in a general intellect kind of way. I don't subscribe to all his views, but his logical processing is just on a level that sends people who disagree with him, usually, into spirals of illogical straw-men and emotional rambling.

I think that's part of the reason I love the man so much. He usually proves his subject a fool. Joey Ryan retorted to calling Cornette a homophobe (Cornette's pretty left-wing), Kenny King responded with homophobia. Omega's been the classiest of the lot and has actually tried to take a moral high road.

TL;DR: Cornette is pretty much right about everything, you dummies. Stop resorting to straw-men because he makes your indy darlings butt-hurt. He is too extreme on Omega though, and that gives his detractors ample room to do their "Look what an asshole he is!" thing, as if that somehow discredits his points.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by Noid I think his spiels against Omega, whilst they are fun, are very harsh. Omega is overrated and does seem to be a bit of a dolt, frankly, but if you black-balled everybody he does dumb stuff, we'd have Xavier Woods taken out for the trust fall, Mick Foley taken out for the dick flip (although that might be for the best at this point), Shawn Michaels for the Curtain Call (HHH wouldn't be a loss), etc. TL;DR: Cornette is pretty much right about everything, you dummies. Stop resorting to straw-men because he makes your indy darlings butt-hurt. He is too extreme on Omega though, and that gives his detractors ample room to do their "Look what an asshole he is!" thing, as if that somehow discredits his points.

First of all, there's nothing you can say to prove to me Omega is over-rated.

He is one hell of a fucking worker. The problem is, nowadays, people LOVE to be contrarian to the "indy darlings", and don't put much thought into it. New Japan is the best thing going right now, and Omega is one of the guys leading the charge. It's the truth. Nothing overrated about that. Also, minus one slightly homophobic post to Cornette I don't know if Omega is much of a dolt. I've heard him in interviews and he comes across as incredibly intelligent. Fuck, the guy can speak Japanese.

And as I said I love Cornette, and agree with him a lot. In fact, we both agree on Cornette being great and that he is too harsh on Omega. You just gobble Cornette's knob too hard. Think for yourself Noid.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead First of all, there's nothing you can say to prove to me Omega is over-rated. He is one hell of a fucking worker. The problem is, nowadays, people LOVE to be contrarian to the "indy darlings", and don't put much thought into it. New Japan is the best thing going right now, and Omega is one of the guys leading the charge. It's the truth. Nothing overrated about that. Also, minus one slightly homophobic post to Cornette I don't know if Omega is much of a dolt. I've heard him in interviews and he comes across as incredibly intelligent. Fuck, the guy can speak Japanese. And as I said I love Cornette, and agree with him a lot. In fact, we both agree on Cornette being great and that he is too harsh on Omega. You just gobble Cornette's knob too hard. Think for yourself Noid.

When I say "overrated" I don't mean that he's terrible. I just mean overrated in the sense that people claim he's Jesus, when it's very clear to me that he's not. If he proves to be, I'll eat my words, but I don't think he will, and I think time will bear that out. The Okada/Omega match I saw was **** worthy. That's a tremendous compliment. To me, ***** is perfect, and very few things are actually perfect, and they need to absorb historical significance to earn that rating retrospectively. For example, we can say that about Austin/Hart. If nothing had come from that match, we may not see it the same light, you know?

I think Omega is very good. I'm not fighting you on that point. I think his faces are dumb, and yes that is important. But it's ironic you say that the other camp doesn't put much thought in, because that's exactly my criticism of the majority of the "IWC": They were so keen to call it the greatest match ever that it was like they've never seen anything else.

When I say Omega is a dolt, it is projecting a little. I obviously don't know the guy. The interviews I've heard are just him justifying dumb shit in matches that can cripple people. He might be a genius, I've just never bought into the "Omega is smart" stuff circulating on the internet. When I hear him talk, I hear a skater trying really hard not to say the word "radical," but that might just be me. Whatever, it's a dumb point to contend.

I kind of balk at the "think for yourself" comment. You can't know this about me, but it's kind of an ironic statement from my perspective. That's your view. I'd throw the same thing at people who think that geeky wrestling is instantly good. My biggest complaint with the anti-logic crowd is that they don't think for themselves enough, and defer to memes and group-think in order to respond to Cornette's individualistic claims. But whatever.

[mike adamle]

Originally Posted by Noid Yeah, basically this. People get blinders up when they talk about Cornette. Just look at the replies you get from people who immediately go to the false "old man yelling at clouds" memes, when what Cornette is really doing is calling for logic. I think his spiels against Omega, whilst they are fun, are very harsh. Omega is overrated and does seem to be a bit of a dolt, frankly, but if you black-balled everybody he does dumb stuff, we'd have Xavier Woods taken out for the trust fall, Mick Foley taken out for the dick flip (although that might be for the best at this point), Shawn Michaels for the Curtain Call (HHH wouldn't be a loss), etc. I think Cornette directly attributes the death of wrestling (and keep in mind he is speaking in hyperbolic terms, you idiots who would jump on this and be like "well, why does the WWE still even exist then?") to Vince McMahon's responses to the steroid scandal in the 90s -- claiming to be Disney and put smiles on faces. This idea that he exonerates Vince yet would punish Omega is a bit of a false assertion. A better comparison would be Pete Dunne. Corny loves his work, yet he does dumb video game shit. He's probably just unaware of that though, and would blast Dunne for that, if it's as goofy as Omega's (if it's just dressing up or presenting that aesthetic, that's different to actually trying to do hadoukens and shit). Or Jay Lethal -- Cornette loves him now, but Black Machismo was pretty dumb. That being said, it was Jay Lethal putting on an act, and not so much "OMG! This act is real!" I dunno, I think the accusations of hypocrisy are exaggerated conveniences for those who would try to circumvent Corny's actual points. And, as I've said in the past, it seems like members of the IWC actually have problems wrapping their head around it. A few people might get insulted by this, but I think he's just generally smarter than most people. Not even in a wrestling sense, but in a general intellect kind of way. I don't subscribe to all his views, but his logical processing is just on a level that sends people who disagree with him, usually, into spirals of illogical straw-men and emotional rambling. I think that's part of the reason I love the man so much. He usually proves his subject a fool. Joey Ryan retorted to calling Cornette a homophobe (Cornette's pretty left-wing), Kenny King responded with homophobia. Omega's been the classiest of the lot and has actually tried to take a moral high road. TL;DR: Cornette is pretty much right about everything, you dummies. Stop resorting to straw-men because he makes your indy darlings butt-hurt. He is too extreme on Omega though, and that gives his detractors ample room to do their "Look what an asshole he is!" thing, as if that somehow discredits his points.

It sounds like you think anyone that tries something new is dumb. Maybe they should all just rehash old Jim Cornette storylines to get your approval? I know that's all they care about anyways is your approval, not the money they make from the business they are in or having fun and getting the fans into the product they're pushing.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by mike adamle It sounds like you think anyone that tries something new is dumb. Maybe they should all just rehash old Jim Cornette storylines to get your approval? I know that's all they care about anyways is your approval, not the money they make from the business they are in or having fun and getting the fans into the product they're pushing.

Nope. I love innovation. Keeping things the same for the sake of it is dumb, unless it is working. Most of Cornette's ideas, as much as I love him, were ideas that had previously worked. That being said, ironically, Cornette was an innovative and progressive personality in wrestling. This is just wrong, wrong, wrong.