DISCUSSION - Could "Montreal" have been averted by Bret Hart jobbing to Undertaker on RAW the next night?

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by hb2k And this response shows a complete lack of understanding of the most common sense principle of all - in 1997, they didn't know what 1998 was going to reveal. That's the entire fucking point. Bret perceived losing in Canada would harm his value long term. Vince perceived that Bischoff announcing the WWF Champ was leaving for WCW would have killed his company. They were both probably wrong, but since neither of them are clairvoyant, surprisingly, they didn't know that. At the time WWF is getting its ass kicked in US, and Bret was very clearly the biggest Canadian draw. Wanna know how many shows WCW ran in Canada in 1998 after it landed Bret? Zero. Did they know the WWF would get the super media coverage of Tyson in November that would help turn things around? No, they did not. This is a prisoner of the moment situation on both sides, and in your chest out stupidity you demonstrate that not only do you not comprehend what this was really about, but makes me wonder if you were actually watching in 1997 at all to understand the tenor of the times. Vince was terrified of the way his company would look and overreacted, and ended up making it a far bigger deal, and Bret was concerned he'd lose his golden ticket for big contracts going forward, the thing that allowed him to negotiate such a huge number in the first place. The entire situation was guys worrying about the unknown. What would happen if it went the other way and the possibilities. And your explanation for why thats stupid is by calling on everything they didnt know at the time. Please, never be a lawyer.

You're right, Bret didn't know what was going to happen. My point about what ended up happening was just that clearly WCW didn't get Bret because he was a Canadian icon and wanted to use him to lead a charge to take the Canadian market. Anyone privy to the numbers, which Bret would have been, would have known WCW wasn't in the same galaxy as WWE in terms of popularity. WCW was barely on TV at that point in Canada. And if it was, it was on tape delay the next day or the day after. WCW wanted Bret for Thunder, no other reason. So either Bret is dilusional for thinking he was being brought in because of Canada or he just didn't want to put over a guy he hated and was jealous of.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by The CyNick You're right, Bret didn't know what was going to happen. My point about what ended up happening was just that clearly WCW didn't get Bret because he was a Canadian icon and wanted to use him to lead a charge to take the Canadian market. Anyone privy to the numbers, which Bret would have been, would have known WCW wasn't in the same galaxy as WWE in terms of popularity. WCW was barely on TV at that point in Canada. And if it was, it was on tape delay the next day or the day after. WCW wanted Bret for Thunder, no other reason. So either Bret is dilusional for thinking he was being brought in because of Canada or he just didn't want to put over a guy he hated and was jealous of.

WCW was beating WWF in the numbers at that point in time. Unless you mean solely in Canada -- in which case, WWF had Bret Hart, who WCW were about to get.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Noid WCW was beating WWF in the numbers at that point in time. Unless you mean solely in Canada -- in which case, WWF had Bret Hart, who WCW were about to get.

Only talking Canada. Trust me when I say, WCW wasn't even a factor in this market. So I don't see how Bret could have rationally thought his future pay hinged on being an icon in Canada when WCW had no footing in this country and had no plans to change that.

If his status as a Canadian hero (which nobody here ever saw him as) was so vital, you would think from day one of his signing Eric would have announced a multi week tour of the country. The fact that nothing even close to that happened showed a Canadian invasion by WCW was never part of the plans. As was mentioned above, is it possible Eric mocked up a bunch of posters showing WCW bringing Nitro to Winnipeg and Regina? Maybe. But I doubt it. More likely as Eric has intimated in many interviews, he wanted Bret to come in and be the workhorse for Thunder because most of his other top guys didn't want to work that show.

Is it possible Bret was acting on the idea that he needed to be protected in Canada or his next deal would drop to $100k downside? Maybe, but if he did, he's an idiot. Don't think that makes him right.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Only talking Canada. Trust me when I say, WCW wasn't even a factor in this market. So I don't see how Bret could have rationally thought his future pay hinged on being an icon in Canada when WCW had no footing in this country and had no plans to change that. If his status as a Canadian hero (which nobody here ever saw him as) was so vital, you would think from day one of his signing Eric would have announced a multi week tour of the country. The fact that nothing even close to that happened showed a Canadian invasion by WCW was never part of the plans. As was mentioned above, is it possible Eric mocked up a bunch of posters showing WCW bringing Nitro to Winnipeg and Regina? Maybe. But I doubt it. More likely as Eric has intimated in many interviews, he wanted Bret to come in and be the workhorse for Thunder because most of his other top guys didn't want to work that show. Is it possible Bret was acting on the idea that he needed to be protected in Canada or his next deal would drop to $100k downside? Maybe, but if he did, he's an idiot. Don't think that makes him right.

But you don't know they didn't have plans to get there. That's exactly the point. If Eric Bischoff had said "We're going to try and take Raw's slot in Canada" (since they were shown on the same channel there, actually), then it would be very important for Bret to protect his status in Canada. Hell, it might have even been important to Bret to protect his status there regardless of what Eric told him, because he was a Canadian hero at that point. It doesn't matter how the US saw him, I don't even see why you would bring that up.

Regardless of whether or not Eric had planned to go to Canada or not (he clearly didn't), the argument is that he should have, and that Bret was a key to getting there, because he was a draw there. He doesn't need to be the biggest draw of all-time to be that. Not wanting to lose in Canada is a fair decision to make, because that's how the business worked back then. We're still years away from Austin refusing to work with Billy Gunn because he had common sense. You're applying hindsight to a situation where none of the players had it.

[hb2k]

Originally Posted by The CyNick You're right, Bret didn't know what was going to happen. My point about what ended up happening was just that clearly WCW didn't get Bret because he was a Canadian icon and wanted to use him to lead a charge to take the Canadian market. Anyone privy to the numbers, which Bret would have been, would have known WCW wasn't in the same galaxy as WWE in terms of popularity. WCW was barely on TV at that point in Canada. And if it was, it was on tape delay the next day or the day after. WCW wanted Bret for Thunder, no other reason. So either Bret is dilusional for thinking he was being brought in because of Canada or he just didn't want to put over a guy he hated and was jealous of.

Consider - in the moment - Vince is losing in the US, Canada he was leading in, and he's losing Bret, the guy that they'd spent months building as a Canadian hero. It's not delusional to think that Bret being brought in for Canada, it was the most obvious benefit for WCW to signing him at the time (which is why I questioned if you were watching at the time, because it was the big talk in the immediate aftermath). Of course WCW fucked it up and never made the play for Canada, it's WCW, but that doesn't mean the intention wasn't there in the beginning. There were plenty of things conceived with logical intentions in WCW that went to shit through disorganisation and politics. It's like saying they didn't start the Sting/Hogan build to make Sting a big deal because look how the match buried him.

All this talk of how Bret didn't give Vince an option, or that Bret would be leaving a void not losing to the right guy is bollocks, because he offered to drop it to Michaels and Austin at different times.