Are you sick of Stephanie McMahon taking the credit for the women's revolution?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by OmletteDuFromage Hogwash. It is 2018 and we as a community of wrestling fans are above this.

But if you can prove that women don't draw and sell merch like men, than why would you pay them the same?

Morality and progressiveness has nothing to do with Destor's argument, it just comes down to brass tax.

However, out of all athletic endeavours, you could argue women can eventually make the same as men, since it's a scripted sport largely based on charisma. Whereas barriers face women in other sports because frankly, the quality of play can't physically/biologically ever match mens.

If what the lads are saying about the women being ratings draws is true, then we could start seeing the pay gap decrease in the industry.

[Emperor Smeat]

Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead But if you can prove that women don't draw and sell merch like men, than why would you pay them the same? Morality and progressiveness has nothing to do with Destor's argument, it just comes down to brass tax. However, out of all athletic endeavours, you could argue women can eventually make the same as men, since it's a scripted sport largely based on charisma. Whereas barriers face women in other sports because frankly, the quality of play can't physically/biologically ever match mens. If what the lads are saying about the women being ratings draws is true, then we could start seeing the pay gap decrease in the industry.

If I remember reading, there was a huge complaint recently about WWE paying their female talent well below their actual value. Got alleged by a former WWE and well known celebrity makeup artist who managed to find out some of the pay scales in the WWE.

She did make the mistake of comparing Nikki Bella to Brock in terms of top star power and pay but if you take out both and Cena for comparisons, the highest paid female performer makes very low midcard level of money at best ($200-$300k). Then you have a bunch still on their NXT contracts ($25k range) which gets eaten a lot because of traveling stuff.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat If I remember reading, there was a huge complaint recently about WWE paying their female talent well below their actual value. Got alleged by a former WWE and well known celebrity makeup artist who managed to find out some of the pay scales in the WWE. She did make the mistake of comparing Nikki Bella to Brock in terms of top star power and pay but if you take out both and Cena for comparisons, the highest paid female performer makes very low midcard level of money at best ($200-$300k). Then you have a bunch still on their NXT contracts ($25k range) which gets eaten a lot because of traveling stuff.

I'm not saying that Nikki Bella is anywhere close to as valuable as Brock in terms of star power, ring skill, charisma or even fucking mic skills, but the comparison of the top paid male star and the top paid female star, on the surface, is a fine one. If you're a company telling people that your men are equal to women, then the idea that your two biggest stars are getting paid so extremely far apart (30 times) then it's not fair to say that they are really equal.

Where Destor and I disagreed earlier is over two different things. He's saying that women aren't equally as valuable to the men right now. I agree with that. What I'm saying is that if you present them as valuable and tell them that they are valuable, they are going to want to be treated as valuable at some point.

It's like when Ultimate Warrior asked Vince for the same amount of money as Hogan is making, because he was pushed to that level, on a much more disparate scale. But that's why I think treating the women are a special attraction is actually a better idea than jamming this idea that Asuka and Shinsuke Nakamura won equal matches down people's throats, because talent and the media will eventually get behind that idea, because that's the kayfabe narrative WWE is pushing, and it's bad PR for them to come out and say "Guys, we don't really value Charlotte as much as Randy Orton. Don't be ridiculous."

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat If I remember reading, there was a huge complaint recently about WWE paying their female talent well below their actual value. Got alleged by a former WWE and well known celebrity makeup artist who managed to find out some of the pay scales in the WWE. She did make the mistake of comparing Nikki Bella to Brock in terms of top star power and pay but if you take out both and Cena for comparisons, the highest paid female performer makes very low midcard level of money at best ($200-$300k). Then you have a bunch still on their NXT contracts ($25k range) which gets eaten a lot because of traveling stuff.

Well they have the option of not working with the WWE and pursuing another, far more fruitful career. Or even better, negotiating a superior contract.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead Well they have the option of not working with the WWE and pursuing another, far more fruitful career. Or even better, negotiating a superior contract.

This is a good point.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead But if you can prove that women don't draw and sell merch like men, than why would you pay them the same? Morality and progressiveness has nothing to do with Destor's argument, it just comes down to brass tax. However, out of all athletic endeavours, you could argue women can eventually make the same as men, since it's a scripted sport largely based on charisma. Whereas barriers face women in other sports because frankly, the quality of play can't physically/biologically ever match mens. If what the lads are saying about the women being ratings draws is true, then we could start seeing the pay gap decrease in the industry.

Generally agree, but I think the idea that women physically can't do it is antiquated. Been reading a lot of myths about women's sports. It can make a fun afternoon. Turns out women aren't actually physically shit, athletically, and it's a bit of thing that men have tried to make their domain just because grrr, men.

Don't get me wrong though, I don't think the current crop of female talent is better than the men. The best workers they have, in my opinion, are Brock, AJ, Joe, Cena and Orton, but all of them have been doing it since the 20th century. But I'd also probably contend that the cream of the All Japan women in the 90's were better in-ring than most of the men on the roster are today. As you said, it's charisma-based, but the athletic part is something that the women can get down fine to have matches with ever women. You can get plenty of ***** matches and drawing fights out of them. That's just not happening right now.

Don't even really want to argue, just want to throw out the men > women at sports is kind of being challenged these days. It's quite possibly an idea we have that shapes how we perceive the intersection of sports and gender, as opposed to a true dynamic that we're responding to. But whatever, I've only done light reading. Largely I agree with the point of star-power in this business largely being charisma-fueled, and that being the most important aspect. And that's why Ronda got more over than basically anyone in UFC, until Conor came along.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by Noid Generally agree, but I think the idea that women physically can't do it is antiquated. Been reading a lot of myths about women's sports. It can make a fun afternoon. Turns out women aren't actually physically shit, athletically, and it's a bit of thing that men have tried to make their domain just because grrr, men.

Women aren't shit athletically. Just, if you put the best women against the best men at sports, the best men will win.

The US women's soccer team got beaten by a grade 10 high school men's team for Christ's sake. http://usatodayhss.com/2017/the-fc-d...ional-team-5-2

Now... I like WMMA, and I watch it, and Ronda Rousey proved women can be HUGE draws. But are all the people clamouring for a decreased pay gap going to buy tickets and merch for when these women are given the same drawing opportunities as male athletes. Or, are the people complaining not particularly huge sports fans, and would continue not watching sports once this happens?

Because I would be willing to bet that the bulk of the demo that watches sports doesn't give a fuck about women's sports (Re: Gertner), and no amount of pushing and posturing an agenda is going to change that.

Plus... I love how being good at sports and making lots of money means EQUALITY. It all depends what you value in society. If you value the almighty dollar and being perceived as great at sports, then I guess this some how represents some kind of oppression.

[Bad News Gertner]

Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead Women aren't shit athletically. Just, if you put the best women against the best men at sports, the best men will win. The US women's soccer team got beaten by a grade 10 high school men's team for Christ's sake. http://usatodayhss.com/2017/the-fc-d...ional-team-5-2 Now... I like WMMA, and I watch it, and Ronda Rousey proved women can be HUGE draws. But are all the people clamouring for a decreased pay gap going to buy tickets and merch for when these women are given the same drawing opportunities as male athletes. Or, are the people complaining not particularly huge sports fans, and would continue not watching sports once this happens? Because I would be willing to bet that the bulk of the demo that watches sports doesn't give a fuck about women's sports (Re: Gertner), and no amount of pushing and posturing an agenda is going to change that. Plus... I love how being good at sports and making lots of money means EQUALITY. It all depends what you value in society. If you value the almighty dollar and being perceived as great at sports, then I guess this some how represents some kind of oppression.

Women's sports are fucking horrendous.