DISCUSSION - Here is my WRESTLEMANIA Card (and why I feel/hope it shapes this way)

[STD]

Originally Posted by Heyman

Spot on! Thats how I felt when you posted this sh*te card.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by STD Spot on! Thats how I felt when you posted this sh*te card.

- I thought some of it was ok. Oh well...........


Here's one brief thing I wanted to say however.

If Goldberg and Lesnar are destined to face each other at Wrestlemania, then I don't really see the point of Triple H 'putting over' a mid-card talent such as John Cena or Chris Benoit.

In my view, the whole point of 'putting over' someone is so that they get the 'center stage'.....and the 'main spotlight' (i.e. when HBK 'put over' Austin at WM-14, or when The Rock 'put over' Brock Lesnar at Summerslam 02).

In this case, Lesnar and Goldberg will clearly be the focal point of WM if the two go up against one another. Both men will be the #1 face and #1 heel.

Therefore - I don't think it will do much for Benoit or Cena if they go over Triple H that night. It will have SOME effect with the fans, but not as much as it should. Most of the 'accomplishment' will be overshadowed by the much more anticipated Lesnar/Goldberg.

That is why I suggested The Rock/Triple H scenerio.

[The CyNick]

First, I want to point out that part of the point of the thread was how Heyman would book, not necessarily how it will happen. I mean I had issues with some of the matches he suggested, but there's no need to get all mean about it.

Now, in terms of booking I just about agree with everything that BT said, so there's no need to rehash it again.

I will add that I think Benoit will get elevated because his match with Hunter will likely go on last, which means the last image people will see is Benoit winning a WWE title for the first time and beating Hunter (if they go through with that plan). That should elevate Benoit.

The Lesnar-Goldberg match will probably get more hype in terms of advertising, but as we've seen over the past two years with Mania, the most hyped match isn't always the match that goes on last. I think they'll put this match second or third from the top because the heel will go over (although I still maintain the MSG crowd will turn on Goldberg, but you cant assume that), and lets face it, that match wont be the best match of all time, and would be a poor way to end the 'greatest show of all time'.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by The CyNick First, I want to point out that part of the point of the thread was how Heyman would book, not necessarily how it will happen. I mean I had issues with some of the matches he suggested, but there's no need to get all mean about it.

I will add that I think Benoit will get elevated because his match with Hunter will likely go on last, which means the last image people will see is Benoit winning a WWE title for the first time and beating Hunter (if they go through with that plan). That should elevate Benoit. The Lesnar-Goldberg match will probably get more hype in terms of advertising, but as we've seen over the past two years with Mania, the most hyped match isn't always the match that goes on last. I think they'll put this match second or third from the top because the heel will go over (although I still maintain the MSG crowd will turn on Goldberg, but you cant assume that), and lets face it, that match wont be the best match of all time, and would be a poor way to end the 'greatest show of all time'.

See, that's the thing - Will the fans really care about Chris Benoit/Triple H after the Goldberg/Lesnar match? A few years ago, we saw how the fans reacted to Jericho/Triple H after The Rock/Hogan match. It was the equivalent of cuddling after sex.

Goldberg/Lesnar won't be the greatest match of all-time (far from it), but I'm pretty sure that this would be the match that most marks would be looking forward to the most.

Given that WM will be a 5 hour show this year, I think that the most "hyped/anticipated" match should be THE last match. The last thing the WWE wants, is the fans to be dead (or disinterested) during the *proposed* Triple H/Benoit match (keep in mind that if the HHH/Benoit match is last on the card, the fans will already have seen Lesnar/Goldberg, Mick Foley, The Rock, Steve Austin, etc.)

Benoit going over Triple H would be cool, but would the fans still care at the end of the day? THAT is my concern.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Heyman See, that's the thing - Will the fans really care about Chris Benoit/Triple H after the Goldberg/Lesnar match? A few years ago, we saw how the fans reacted to Jericho/Triple H after The Rock/Hogan match. It was the equivalent of cuddling after sex. Goldberg/Lesnar won't be the greatest match of all-time (far from it), but I'm pretty sure that this would be the match that most marks would be looking forward to the most. Given that WM will be a 5 hour show this year, I think that the most "hyped/anticipated" match should be THE last match. The last thing the WWE wants, is the fans to be dead (or disinterested) during the *proposed* Triple H/Benoit match (keep in mind that if the HHH/Benoit match is last on the card, the fans will already have seen Lesnar/Goldberg, Mick Foley, The Rock, Steve Austin, etc.) Benoit going over Triple H would be cool, but would the fans still care at the end of the day? THAT is my concern.

Thats a legit concern, and the answer is how well they build up Benoit in the weeks leading to Mania. I think if Benoit is to win the Rumble by lasting over an hour he will have some momentum. On top of that, if they build up the fact that Benoit has worked so hard for so long, and winning a World Title in the WWE is his life's dream, then I think the people will get behind him. The other thing to consider is that there will only be 18-19,000 fans in the Garden. By my logic that means you will have a larger percentage of hardcore fans. I mean, I was at Mania in Skydome, and a lot of the crowd came basically to see Hogan-Rock and could care less about the rest of the card. In contrast I expect the crowd at the Garden to be a larger percentage of 'smark marks' and they will appreciate Benoit finally winning a World Title, and especially since he's defeating HHH for it (aghain, assuming that happens). I believe the fact that its in the Garden is a bonus for Benoit, because I think they will treat Benoit like a star. I mean you look at the recent past in the Garden, and a guy like Tazz recieved a huge ovation, even though the only people who knew about him were hardcore ECW fans. Yet on his debut, Tazz got a huge pop, and looked like a star. I think Benoit will have that kind of support ten times over. But again, a lot of it has to do with the build, and how Benoit is booked on RAW in the weeks leading to Mania.

[The CyNick]

RE other points:

I dont think its the right to time for Cena or Orton to carry either the RAW or SD titles. I'm a firm believer that the best way to make money in wrestling is to make people want something, BEFORE you actually give it them.

This is more important withg Cena because he's a face, but it can also apply to Orton.

The WWE has show in the past, an inability to push people in the midcard and keep them strong. What usually happens is that a mid carder will find themselves in a meningless match on TV with a top guy, get punked or jobbed out, and that hurts their ability to draw in the future. Form what Ive heard about who the WWE wants to push, I have faith that they can push Orton and Cena as near main event guys, without killing them before they are ready for that big main event push.

The truth of the matter is that its almost impossible to know when a guy is ready to carry a company, but I think with both these guys its better to continue to build them up slowly, and then a year from now, when they have been dominant for over a year, people will be clamouring to see them main event.

I mean you look at Cena, and he's yet to get that big win, but both Benoit and Angle made him look legit, this helped him turn babyafce. Now, if you look to the future of SD, you will likely have a heel Angle, and I could see a huge Cena-Angle fued as a semi main event fued under say a Brock-Eddie or Brock-Edge fued (or God Forbid another Brock-Taker fued). Again, if Cena gets the US title at or before Mania, and keeps it for 8 months to a year, people will see him as a rising star and they will be ready to pay to see him win the big match. Not to use a tired reference, but if you look back at Austin's rise in the WWE, you will see that he was basically the top face in the company at or just after WM 13, but the WWe waited a whole year before they put the big title on him. During that year they managed to make him one of, if not the main focale point of the shows, but he didn't get the big title. Then when it finally happened, people were more than accpeting of him as champ.

The idea of Cena as a heel is bad IMO, because the fans clearly turned Cena face, and I believe its counterproductive to go against what the fans want. I mean we all know what happened when the WWE turned Austin and the fans didn't want it. Now, Cena isn't Austin, but its the same principle.

Orton is a slightly different deal, because he's a heel. However, you dont want fans to feel like he's being crammed down their throats. Plus, lets face it, Orton is not ready for main events in terms of ring work, or even promos. A nice fued for 2 or 3 months with Foley will do wonders for him, and maybe in 6 months, if he's still improving, then I would definately say he could carry the RAW Heavyweight Title. My thinking is that they should build up Benoit as a worthy champ, or even a guy like Jericho (as a face) who down the road would make a good champ, who could then drop to Orton. But again, Orton would do wonders for himself if he holds the IC title, but like Cena on SD, has semi main event programs that keep him strong. There are a ton of babyfaces on RAW who could put over Orton. BT, RVD and Jericho could all have semi main event fueds with Orton, and put him over. That would slowly make him seem more legit in fans eyes.

As for Rock and Foley against Orton and Batista. I agree that Batista isn't a huge star, but he is in the main angle on RAW being part of Evolution, so its not like we're talking about Test or something. The way I would book that fued is to have the focal point be Orton-Foley, but Evolution gets involved, which causes Rock to come back and make it a tag. Then Orton can play chicken (despite him calling Foley a coward for so long) and Batista would be used as the monster protecting Orton. Eventually this would lead to Rock and Foley winning, perhaps by pinning Batista. The way I see it, Orton-Foley is a hot fued right now, Rock just adds another high profile name to the fued, which makes it a main event program. Of course the other option would be to put Flair with Orton instead of Batista. Ive said before, I dont mind the idea of Foley-Orton one on one, but I think its more effective to hold off the one on one match till Backlash.

I dont like HHH vs Rock, just because as I mentioned Rock vs Austin didn't do huge numbers, and that was a bigger fued, so why would HHH vs Rock do any better? Plus, I like the idea of HHH putting over Benoit instead of a lateral fued with Rock. The problem with Rock is that he has nobody left to face. HBK's name has been throw around, but I dont really think thats a money program (I dont think HBK is on Rock's level). Then you could do Rock vs Flair, and while those promos would be heel cool, I dont think this would be the best idea because Flair hasn't been portrayed as a top guy. Rock vs Cena has been talked about, but I dont think thats the best idea because I dont think they should risk Cena getting booed. Thats why I think the best idea is to have Rock and Foley team up, which would be something that hasn't happened in a long while, and its an easy way to get Rock and Foley a win without hurting anyone's push.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by The CyNick RE other points: I dont think its the right to time for Cena or Orton to carry either the RAW or SD titles. I'm a firm believer that the best way to make money in wrestling is to make people want something, BEFORE you actually give it them.

Wouldn't you agree that Cena and Orton are way over right now though? Also - take a look at Brock Lesnar. One can make a good case that Lesnar was pushed way too fast (and the fans didn't necccessarily clamour for it), but the bottom line is that Lesnar became established as a main-eventer. Lesnar BROKE THROUGH the glass ceiling........something of which almost no one has done over the past 5-6 years.

This is more important withg Cena because he's a face, but it can also apply to Orton.

Very true.

The WWE has show in the past, an inability to push people in the midcard and keep them strong. What usually happens is that a mid carder will find themselves in a meningless match on TV with a top guy, get punked or jobbed out, and that hurts their ability to draw in the future. Form what Ive heard about who the WWE wants to push, I have faith that they can push Orton and Cena as near main event guys, without killing them before they are ready for that big main event push.

IF (and only 'if') the WWE can push these guys as 'near main-event' guys without making them to look 'inferior', then I'm all for it. However - I remain skeptical if they can do that. Look at Jericho and Benoit for instance. A few years ago, people were CONFIDENT that they would easily take The Rock and Triple H's spot. Did it happen? No. Despite both men having respectable IC title reigns, they were made to look inferior to the likes of The Rock, Triple H, etc. Neither men really 'broke through' for an extended period of time.

The truth of the matter is that its almost impossible to know when a guy is ready to carry a company, but I think with both these guys its better to continue to build them up slowly, and then a year from now, when they have been dominant for over a year, people will be clamouring to see them main event.

I agree with that, but I think it's also safe to say that this 'system' hasn't been all that productive during the last few years. It's just SO damn hard to break through the 'glass ceiling' nowadays. Whatever happened to Edge's KOTR push? Did it EVER materialize? Even with wins over Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, and Eddie Guerrero, did Edge ever get put into a position of main-eventing?

Here's my thinking:

Unless a guy is WAY over (i.e like Eddie Guerrero is now....or was a few months ago), the fans will NOT get behind a guy who has been in the mid-cards for too long.....no matter how much the WWE wants the fans to 'accept' him

If this is the case, then why RISK putting a blue-chip prospect in the mid-cards for too long? You put a guy in the mid-cards for too long, and they basically become like Test, Val Venis, and Billy Gunn (i.e. brief pushes that will never materialize).

Now look at Lesnar. The WWE didn't give a shit as to whether the fans "liked" Lesnar or not. They simply pushed Lesnar to the main-events, and the fans eventually ACCEPTED Lesnar as a bona-fide main-eventer.


Here is my thinking with Orton and Cena

If you can somehow "guarantee" that the fans' perception of Cena/Orton (in terms of potential for main-eventing) will NOT change for the worse in anyway, then I am all for 'paying their dues' in the mid-cards.

However - Now take a look at people like Rob Van Dam, Booker T, Edge, and Chris Jericho.

All of these men have been below 'main-event' status for quite sometime now (despite each of these men 'being in the position' to be given a *solidified* main-event push..........each of these men have also 'paid their dues' as well).

The problem with these men however, is that they've been made to JOB to 'main-eventers' such as Triple H, Goldberg, etc., (and hence - have been made to look inferior).

Since so much backstage politics come into play, do you think it's easy for wrestlers to give other wrestlers their 'spot'? If yes - then how do you explain Triple H not 'putting over' the likes of RVD, Booker T, and Jericho of late?

How do you explain Angle, Jericho, and Benoit never 'going over' The Rock and Triple H in 2000?

Unless the WWE decide to FULLY COMMIT themselves to Cena and Orton for the next year (and protect them at all costs, while making them to still look 'dominant' like Austin was in 97'), then I am against the idea of them 'paying their dues' within the mid-cards

I mean you look at Cena, and he's yet to get that big win, but both Benoit and Angle made him look legit, this helped him turn babyafce. Now, if you look to the future of SD, you will likely have a heel Angle, and I could see a huge Cena-Angle fued as a semi main event fued under say a Brock-Eddie or Brock-Edge fued (or God Forbid another Brock-Taker fued). Again, if Cena gets the US title at or before Mania, and keeps it for 8 months to a year, people will see him as a rising star and they will be ready to pay to see him win the big match.

If Cena and Guerrero both 'go over' Angle and Lesnar CLEANLY respectively, then I am all for your idea. I've just completely lost faith in the WWE's inability to get rid of the 'glass ceiling'. How else do you explain Guerrero's NON-PUSH in the latter stages of the summer? The guy was WAY over. Was he ever pushed?

Not to use a tired reference, but if you look back at Austin's rise in the WWE, you will see that he was basically the top face in the company at or just after WM 13, but the WWe waited a whole year before they put the big title on him. During that year they managed to make him one of, if not the main focale point of the shows, but he didn't get the big title. Then when it finally happened, people were more than accpeting of him as champ.

If the WWE are willing to do that with John Cena and/or Eddie Guerrero, then I'll be happy. If recent history is of any indication however, then I have my reservations. How else do you explain Stephanie friggin McMahon and Sable getting more (or as much) TV time as Eddie Guerrero and John Cena a few months ago? Or fucking A-TRAIN getting TV time?

Your whole "Let's push Cena in the same manner that they pushed Austin" strategy will only work if the WWE commits to it. Based on recent history however, I think the WWE would be too stupid to give Cena that push. Eventually - they'll 'peg' him as a mid-carder, and forget all about his "Austin-like" one year build-up

The idea of Cena as a heel is bad IMO, because the fans clearly turned Cena face, and I believe its counterproductive to go against what the fans want. I mean we all know what happened when the WWE turned Austin and the fans didn't want it. Now, Cena isn't Austin, but its the same principle.

Maybe Cena wouldn't have to turn heel. Maybe Cena and Austin can FACE each other as fan-favorites? (like Hogan and Warrior?). Maybe the fans can decide whether to 'cheer' or 'boo' Cena based on his pending feud with Austin. If the fans continue to cheer Cena, then maybe even have him 'go over' Austin at Mania with a pinfall victory (and then have Austin toss Cena a beer at the end of the match as a sign of respect).

Orton is a slightly different deal, because he's a heel. However, you dont want fans to feel like he's being crammed down their throats. Plus, lets face it, Orton is not ready for main events in terms of ring work, or even promos.

I think the fans have reacted nicely to Orton. Besides - I still use Brock Lesnar as an example. Lesnar WAS crammed down the fans' throats but at the end of the day, he BECAME a main-eventer....period.

Orton may not be ready for main events in terms of ring work, but he can develop in to that role. Hulk Hogan was one of the shittest wrestlers of all-time, but that didn't stop him. In 1998, Austin was only an average wrestler. He didn't become a great in-ring worker until much later than that.

A nice fued for 2 or 3 months with Foley will do wonders for him, and maybe in 6 months, if he's still improving, then I would definately say he could carry the RAW Heavyweight Title. My thinking is that they should build up Benoit as a worthy champ, or even a guy like Jericho (as a face) who down the road would make a good champ, who could then drop to Orton. But again, Orton would do wonders for himself if he holds the IC title, but like Cena on SD, has semi main event programs that keep him strong. There are a ton of babyfaces on RAW who could put over Orton. BT, RVD and Jericho could all have semi main event fueds with Orton, and put him over. That would slowly make him seem more legit in fans eyes.

But their lies the problem. If you have Orton as IC champ (and then have guys like RVD, Jericho, and BT jobbing to him), then you further kill the chance of guys like RVD, Jericho, and BT EVER being accepted as main-event face champions.

Now - change the scene a bit. You have a guy like Orton (who has defeated Foley and The Rock on one on one competition). Orton is World Champ. You then have a challenger in Jericho or RVD. If Jericho or RVD lose? No big deal? Orton is World Champ. He was EXPECTED to win After all, this guy beat The Rock! If RVD or Jericho win though, then they become champ.

As for Rock and Foley against Orton and Batista. I agree that Batista isn't a huge star, but he is in the main angle on RAW being part of Evolution, so its not like we're talking about Test or something.

Will The Rock be happy in feuding with Triple H's "henchmen"? If you recall last year, The Rock had a problem in jobbing to Booker T one on one, because Triple H was slated to beat BT at mania (so in effect, Triple H would look 'superior' to The Rock). This is what the rumor was anyways.

The way I would book that fued is to have the focal point be Orton-Foley, but Evolution gets involved, which causes Rock to come back and make it a tag. Then Orton can play chicken (despite him calling Foley a coward for so long) and Batista would be used as the monster protecting Orton. Eventually this would lead to Rock and Foley winning, perhaps by pinning Batista. The way I see it, Orton-Foley is a hot fued right now, Rock just adds another high profile name to the fued, which makes it a main event program.

This idea actually sounds good.

I dont like HHH vs Rock, just because as I mentioned Rock vs Austin didn't do huge numbers, and that was a bigger fued, so why would HHH vs Rock do any better?

Because

1)Rock/Austin had been done before at Mania'
2)Rock/Austin had both come off of lengthy absences
3)Rock/Austin only had a one month build up.
4)Rock/Austin was NOT for any title.

With HHH/Rock (in my scenerio), all of these would be addressed. Rock/HHH have never gone one on one at Mania, while The Rock/HHH feud would also have a proper 2 month build up. It would also be for the World title.

Plus, I like the idea of HHH putting over Benoit instead of a lateral fued with Rock.

If Benoit leaves for Raw, then who goes to SD? Keep in mind that Goldberg and Kane may also be making roster switches for their respective feuds.

The problem with Rock is that he has nobody left to face. HBK's name has been throw around, but I dont really think thats a money program (I dont think HBK is on Rock's level). Then you could do Rock vs Flair, and while those promos would be heel cool, I dont think this would be the best idea because Flair hasn't been portrayed as a top guy. Rock vs Cena has been talked about, but I dont think thats the best idea because I dont think they should risk Cena getting booed. Thats why I think the best idea is to have Rock and Foley team up, which would be something that hasn't happened in a long while, and its an easy way to get Rock and Foley a win without hurting anyone's push.

I guess I can agree with the above scenerio.

One thing with The Rock though - If The Rock were to become World Champ and then appear on WWE television, don't you think ratings would increase?


Now that I think about it - Here is what I'd rather see now.

-Have The Rock become World Champ at Wrestlemania by defeating Triple H (Rock as champ on TV could help ratings a bit).

-Have Lesnar defeat Goldberg at Mania'

-Have Orton and Cena stay down at the mid-card level (as you and BT suggested), but ENSURE that they look domiant as champ (Have Orton look like 'Jeff Jarret from 99', while Cena looks like 'Austin from 97').

-Have The Rock challenge Lesnar (rematch from Summerslam 02') and have him JOB (Rock then leaves for the movies again).

-Lesnar becomes Champ for both shows (and appears on both shows).

-Continue building up Benoit. In up-coming months, have him defeat a heel Angle, etc. At Summerslam, Benoit defeats Lesnar to become Undisputed Champ (to appear on both shows).