DISCUSSION - Here is my WRESTLEMANIA Card (and why I feel/hope it shapes this way)

[The CyNick]

RE other points:

I dont think its the right to time for Cena or Orton to carry either the RAW or SD titles. I'm a firm believer that the best way to make money in wrestling is to make people want something, BEFORE you actually give it them.

This is more important withg Cena because he's a face, but it can also apply to Orton.

The WWE has show in the past, an inability to push people in the midcard and keep them strong. What usually happens is that a mid carder will find themselves in a meningless match on TV with a top guy, get punked or jobbed out, and that hurts their ability to draw in the future. Form what Ive heard about who the WWE wants to push, I have faith that they can push Orton and Cena as near main event guys, without killing them before they are ready for that big main event push.

The truth of the matter is that its almost impossible to know when a guy is ready to carry a company, but I think with both these guys its better to continue to build them up slowly, and then a year from now, when they have been dominant for over a year, people will be clamouring to see them main event.

I mean you look at Cena, and he's yet to get that big win, but both Benoit and Angle made him look legit, this helped him turn babyafce. Now, if you look to the future of SD, you will likely have a heel Angle, and I could see a huge Cena-Angle fued as a semi main event fued under say a Brock-Eddie or Brock-Edge fued (or God Forbid another Brock-Taker fued). Again, if Cena gets the US title at or before Mania, and keeps it for 8 months to a year, people will see him as a rising star and they will be ready to pay to see him win the big match. Not to use a tired reference, but if you look back at Austin's rise in the WWE, you will see that he was basically the top face in the company at or just after WM 13, but the WWe waited a whole year before they put the big title on him. During that year they managed to make him one of, if not the main focale point of the shows, but he didn't get the big title. Then when it finally happened, people were more than accpeting of him as champ.

The idea of Cena as a heel is bad IMO, because the fans clearly turned Cena face, and I believe its counterproductive to go against what the fans want. I mean we all know what happened when the WWE turned Austin and the fans didn't want it. Now, Cena isn't Austin, but its the same principle.

Orton is a slightly different deal, because he's a heel. However, you dont want fans to feel like he's being crammed down their throats. Plus, lets face it, Orton is not ready for main events in terms of ring work, or even promos. A nice fued for 2 or 3 months with Foley will do wonders for him, and maybe in 6 months, if he's still improving, then I would definately say he could carry the RAW Heavyweight Title. My thinking is that they should build up Benoit as a worthy champ, or even a guy like Jericho (as a face) who down the road would make a good champ, who could then drop to Orton. But again, Orton would do wonders for himself if he holds the IC title, but like Cena on SD, has semi main event programs that keep him strong. There are a ton of babyfaces on RAW who could put over Orton. BT, RVD and Jericho could all have semi main event fueds with Orton, and put him over. That would slowly make him seem more legit in fans eyes.

As for Rock and Foley against Orton and Batista. I agree that Batista isn't a huge star, but he is in the main angle on RAW being part of Evolution, so its not like we're talking about Test or something. The way I would book that fued is to have the focal point be Orton-Foley, but Evolution gets involved, which causes Rock to come back and make it a tag. Then Orton can play chicken (despite him calling Foley a coward for so long) and Batista would be used as the monster protecting Orton. Eventually this would lead to Rock and Foley winning, perhaps by pinning Batista. The way I see it, Orton-Foley is a hot fued right now, Rock just adds another high profile name to the fued, which makes it a main event program. Of course the other option would be to put Flair with Orton instead of Batista. Ive said before, I dont mind the idea of Foley-Orton one on one, but I think its more effective to hold off the one on one match till Backlash.

I dont like HHH vs Rock, just because as I mentioned Rock vs Austin didn't do huge numbers, and that was a bigger fued, so why would HHH vs Rock do any better? Plus, I like the idea of HHH putting over Benoit instead of a lateral fued with Rock. The problem with Rock is that he has nobody left to face. HBK's name has been throw around, but I dont really think thats a money program (I dont think HBK is on Rock's level). Then you could do Rock vs Flair, and while those promos would be heel cool, I dont think this would be the best idea because Flair hasn't been portrayed as a top guy. Rock vs Cena has been talked about, but I dont think thats the best idea because I dont think they should risk Cena getting booed. Thats why I think the best idea is to have Rock and Foley team up, which would be something that hasn't happened in a long while, and its an easy way to get Rock and Foley a win without hurting anyone's push.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by The CyNick RE other points: I dont think its the right to time for Cena or Orton to carry either the RAW or SD titles. I'm a firm believer that the best way to make money in wrestling is to make people want something, BEFORE you actually give it them.

Wouldn't you agree that Cena and Orton are way over right now though? Also - take a look at Brock Lesnar. One can make a good case that Lesnar was pushed way too fast (and the fans didn't necccessarily clamour for it), but the bottom line is that Lesnar became established as a main-eventer. Lesnar BROKE THROUGH the glass ceiling........something of which almost no one has done over the past 5-6 years.

This is more important withg Cena because he's a face, but it can also apply to Orton.

Very true.

The WWE has show in the past, an inability to push people in the midcard and keep them strong. What usually happens is that a mid carder will find themselves in a meningless match on TV with a top guy, get punked or jobbed out, and that hurts their ability to draw in the future. Form what Ive heard about who the WWE wants to push, I have faith that they can push Orton and Cena as near main event guys, without killing them before they are ready for that big main event push.

IF (and only 'if') the WWE can push these guys as 'near main-event' guys without making them to look 'inferior', then I'm all for it. However - I remain skeptical if they can do that. Look at Jericho and Benoit for instance. A few years ago, people were CONFIDENT that they would easily take The Rock and Triple H's spot. Did it happen? No. Despite both men having respectable IC title reigns, they were made to look inferior to the likes of The Rock, Triple H, etc. Neither men really 'broke through' for an extended period of time.

The truth of the matter is that its almost impossible to know when a guy is ready to carry a company, but I think with both these guys its better to continue to build them up slowly, and then a year from now, when they have been dominant for over a year, people will be clamouring to see them main event.

I agree with that, but I think it's also safe to say that this 'system' hasn't been all that productive during the last few years. It's just SO damn hard to break through the 'glass ceiling' nowadays. Whatever happened to Edge's KOTR push? Did it EVER materialize? Even with wins over Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, and Eddie Guerrero, did Edge ever get put into a position of main-eventing?

Here's my thinking:

Unless a guy is WAY over (i.e like Eddie Guerrero is now....or was a few months ago), the fans will NOT get behind a guy who has been in the mid-cards for too long.....no matter how much the WWE wants the fans to 'accept' him

If this is the case, then why RISK putting a blue-chip prospect in the mid-cards for too long? You put a guy in the mid-cards for too long, and they basically become like Test, Val Venis, and Billy Gunn (i.e. brief pushes that will never materialize).

Now look at Lesnar. The WWE didn't give a shit as to whether the fans "liked" Lesnar or not. They simply pushed Lesnar to the main-events, and the fans eventually ACCEPTED Lesnar as a bona-fide main-eventer.


Here is my thinking with Orton and Cena

If you can somehow "guarantee" that the fans' perception of Cena/Orton (in terms of potential for main-eventing) will NOT change for the worse in anyway, then I am all for 'paying their dues' in the mid-cards.

However - Now take a look at people like Rob Van Dam, Booker T, Edge, and Chris Jericho.

All of these men have been below 'main-event' status for quite sometime now (despite each of these men 'being in the position' to be given a *solidified* main-event push..........each of these men have also 'paid their dues' as well).

The problem with these men however, is that they've been made to JOB to 'main-eventers' such as Triple H, Goldberg, etc., (and hence - have been made to look inferior).

Since so much backstage politics come into play, do you think it's easy for wrestlers to give other wrestlers their 'spot'? If yes - then how do you explain Triple H not 'putting over' the likes of RVD, Booker T, and Jericho of late?

How do you explain Angle, Jericho, and Benoit never 'going over' The Rock and Triple H in 2000?

Unless the WWE decide to FULLY COMMIT themselves to Cena and Orton for the next year (and protect them at all costs, while making them to still look 'dominant' like Austin was in 97'), then I am against the idea of them 'paying their dues' within the mid-cards

I mean you look at Cena, and he's yet to get that big win, but both Benoit and Angle made him look legit, this helped him turn babyafce. Now, if you look to the future of SD, you will likely have a heel Angle, and I could see a huge Cena-Angle fued as a semi main event fued under say a Brock-Eddie or Brock-Edge fued (or God Forbid another Brock-Taker fued). Again, if Cena gets the US title at or before Mania, and keeps it for 8 months to a year, people will see him as a rising star and they will be ready to pay to see him win the big match.

If Cena and Guerrero both 'go over' Angle and Lesnar CLEANLY respectively, then I am all for your idea. I've just completely lost faith in the WWE's inability to get rid of the 'glass ceiling'. How else do you explain Guerrero's NON-PUSH in the latter stages of the summer? The guy was WAY over. Was he ever pushed?

Not to use a tired reference, but if you look back at Austin's rise in the WWE, you will see that he was basically the top face in the company at or just after WM 13, but the WWe waited a whole year before they put the big title on him. During that year they managed to make him one of, if not the main focale point of the shows, but he didn't get the big title. Then when it finally happened, people were more than accpeting of him as champ.

If the WWE are willing to do that with John Cena and/or Eddie Guerrero, then I'll be happy. If recent history is of any indication however, then I have my reservations. How else do you explain Stephanie friggin McMahon and Sable getting more (or as much) TV time as Eddie Guerrero and John Cena a few months ago? Or fucking A-TRAIN getting TV time?

Your whole "Let's push Cena in the same manner that they pushed Austin" strategy will only work if the WWE commits to it. Based on recent history however, I think the WWE would be too stupid to give Cena that push. Eventually - they'll 'peg' him as a mid-carder, and forget all about his "Austin-like" one year build-up

The idea of Cena as a heel is bad IMO, because the fans clearly turned Cena face, and I believe its counterproductive to go against what the fans want. I mean we all know what happened when the WWE turned Austin and the fans didn't want it. Now, Cena isn't Austin, but its the same principle.

Maybe Cena wouldn't have to turn heel. Maybe Cena and Austin can FACE each other as fan-favorites? (like Hogan and Warrior?). Maybe the fans can decide whether to 'cheer' or 'boo' Cena based on his pending feud with Austin. If the fans continue to cheer Cena, then maybe even have him 'go over' Austin at Mania with a pinfall victory (and then have Austin toss Cena a beer at the end of the match as a sign of respect).

Orton is a slightly different deal, because he's a heel. However, you dont want fans to feel like he's being crammed down their throats. Plus, lets face it, Orton is not ready for main events in terms of ring work, or even promos.

I think the fans have reacted nicely to Orton. Besides - I still use Brock Lesnar as an example. Lesnar WAS crammed down the fans' throats but at the end of the day, he BECAME a main-eventer....period.

Orton may not be ready for main events in terms of ring work, but he can develop in to that role. Hulk Hogan was one of the shittest wrestlers of all-time, but that didn't stop him. In 1998, Austin was only an average wrestler. He didn't become a great in-ring worker until much later than that.

A nice fued for 2 or 3 months with Foley will do wonders for him, and maybe in 6 months, if he's still improving, then I would definately say he could carry the RAW Heavyweight Title. My thinking is that they should build up Benoit as a worthy champ, or even a guy like Jericho (as a face) who down the road would make a good champ, who could then drop to Orton. But again, Orton would do wonders for himself if he holds the IC title, but like Cena on SD, has semi main event programs that keep him strong. There are a ton of babyfaces on RAW who could put over Orton. BT, RVD and Jericho could all have semi main event fueds with Orton, and put him over. That would slowly make him seem more legit in fans eyes.

But their lies the problem. If you have Orton as IC champ (and then have guys like RVD, Jericho, and BT jobbing to him), then you further kill the chance of guys like RVD, Jericho, and BT EVER being accepted as main-event face champions.

Now - change the scene a bit. You have a guy like Orton (who has defeated Foley and The Rock on one on one competition). Orton is World Champ. You then have a challenger in Jericho or RVD. If Jericho or RVD lose? No big deal? Orton is World Champ. He was EXPECTED to win After all, this guy beat The Rock! If RVD or Jericho win though, then they become champ.

As for Rock and Foley against Orton and Batista. I agree that Batista isn't a huge star, but he is in the main angle on RAW being part of Evolution, so its not like we're talking about Test or something.

Will The Rock be happy in feuding with Triple H's "henchmen"? If you recall last year, The Rock had a problem in jobbing to Booker T one on one, because Triple H was slated to beat BT at mania (so in effect, Triple H would look 'superior' to The Rock). This is what the rumor was anyways.

The way I would book that fued is to have the focal point be Orton-Foley, but Evolution gets involved, which causes Rock to come back and make it a tag. Then Orton can play chicken (despite him calling Foley a coward for so long) and Batista would be used as the monster protecting Orton. Eventually this would lead to Rock and Foley winning, perhaps by pinning Batista. The way I see it, Orton-Foley is a hot fued right now, Rock just adds another high profile name to the fued, which makes it a main event program.

This idea actually sounds good.

I dont like HHH vs Rock, just because as I mentioned Rock vs Austin didn't do huge numbers, and that was a bigger fued, so why would HHH vs Rock do any better?

Because

1)Rock/Austin had been done before at Mania'
2)Rock/Austin had both come off of lengthy absences
3)Rock/Austin only had a one month build up.
4)Rock/Austin was NOT for any title.

With HHH/Rock (in my scenerio), all of these would be addressed. Rock/HHH have never gone one on one at Mania, while The Rock/HHH feud would also have a proper 2 month build up. It would also be for the World title.

Plus, I like the idea of HHH putting over Benoit instead of a lateral fued with Rock.

If Benoit leaves for Raw, then who goes to SD? Keep in mind that Goldberg and Kane may also be making roster switches for their respective feuds.

The problem with Rock is that he has nobody left to face. HBK's name has been throw around, but I dont really think thats a money program (I dont think HBK is on Rock's level). Then you could do Rock vs Flair, and while those promos would be heel cool, I dont think this would be the best idea because Flair hasn't been portrayed as a top guy. Rock vs Cena has been talked about, but I dont think thats the best idea because I dont think they should risk Cena getting booed. Thats why I think the best idea is to have Rock and Foley team up, which would be something that hasn't happened in a long while, and its an easy way to get Rock and Foley a win without hurting anyone's push.

I guess I can agree with the above scenerio.

One thing with The Rock though - If The Rock were to become World Champ and then appear on WWE television, don't you think ratings would increase?


Now that I think about it - Here is what I'd rather see now.

-Have The Rock become World Champ at Wrestlemania by defeating Triple H (Rock as champ on TV could help ratings a bit).

-Have Lesnar defeat Goldberg at Mania'

-Have Orton and Cena stay down at the mid-card level (as you and BT suggested), but ENSURE that they look domiant as champ (Have Orton look like 'Jeff Jarret from 99', while Cena looks like 'Austin from 97').

-Have The Rock challenge Lesnar (rematch from Summerslam 02') and have him JOB (Rock then leaves for the movies again).

-Lesnar becomes Champ for both shows (and appears on both shows).

-Continue building up Benoit. In up-coming months, have him defeat a heel Angle, etc. At Summerslam, Benoit defeats Lesnar to become Undisputed Champ (to appear on both shows).

[The CyNick]

I know for a fact that the WWE has no plans to unify the World Titles, they like having a champ on each show, and thats what they are sticking with for the near future. Personally, I like the idea of a unified champ, but the WWE doesn't feel the same way.

The skepticism on pushing mid card guys to main eventers is a fair one, given the WWE's history. The difference between then and now is that the WWE doesn't have anyone who is drawing money, and there is a sense of urgency in terms of making new stars. The other difference is that the WWE internally has faith in Orton and Cena, whereas 2 and 3 years ago they didn't really have faith in guys like Benoit, Jericho, Eddie, BT, and RVD. All of those guys were given mediocre pushes, but really the people making the decisions had no intentions of investing time and money into making them top stars. With Cena and Orton (WWE homegrown talent) there is a sense that the comapny wants to make them the new stars for the future.

Edge is an example of a guy they planned on pushing, but due to injuries he obviously couldn't be pushed. If you look at what he was doing before the injury, he was having good matches with a lot of different guys, and getting a lot of wins. It was just a matter of time before they pushed him to that next level. They did give him the KOTR win a little too early, but when they decided to push him it was a strong push.

With Lesnar, he's a little different. He was given the 'Goldberg' monster push, and they did a great job with that (until the day after Summerslam). The only problem is that you cant do that with everyone. So, the way they pushed Lesnar isn't going to be the same way you push guys like Cena and Orton.

I like the concept of Orton getting wins over Foley and Rock, but that might be too much too soon. People have to accept that Orton is at the level where he can beat Foley, but to have him beat Rock only a month later, in my opinion might be too much too soon. I'd rather see Orton beat Foley either at Mania or Backlash, and then maybe 6 months from now he beats Rock. That way people will have had even more time to accept Orton as a main event guy, before having him go over the biggest PPV draw in history.

I dont agree with the thinking that just because Orton beats Rock he is automatically over to the point where he makes RVD and Booker T a main event star. You actually run the risk of making the World Title become a mid card title like it was when Angle got his first reign, or even HHH when he got his first couple of reigns. To me, thats just about the worst thing that can happen. I mean you take Angle, and he beat Rock for his first title, but really fans weren't ready for it, what happened was that Angle as champ was relegated to the mid card. I think the same would happen if Orton were to win the big gold belt in the next three months people would see the World Title as a mid card title.

If you wait, Orton gets built up, and people see him as an uncrowned champ, and then when he gets the belt, people are like "yeah that makes sense", and they will accept it. Of course, like I mentioned the key is that they keep him strong, which I believe they will knowing what I know.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by The CyNick I know for a fact that the WWE has no plans to unify the World Titles, they like having a champ on each show, and thats what they are sticking with for the near future. Personally, I like the idea of a unified champ, but the WWE doesn't feel the same way.

It's too bad. It would make the World title mean more. It would also allow for the WWE to create more potential match-ups, but . Oh well.

The skepticism on pushing mid card guys to main eventers is a fair one, given the WWE's history. The difference between then and now is that the WWE doesn't have anyone who is drawing money, and there is a sense of urgency in terms of making new stars.

True, but what do you do it this case?

1)Push guys like RVD, Jericho, Kane, and Benoit (who have been made to look 'inferior' to the likes of Triple H, The Rock, Austin, Goldberg, etc. for years)...

2)Push guys (right away) like Cena, Orton, and Lesnar in hopes that the fanbase perceives these 3 as 'extraordinary' due to them achieving so much in such little time, and not looking too inferior in the process.

I guess either strategy is 'ok' , but I'd be interested to see with what happens with option#2.

The other difference is that the WWE internally has faith in Orton and Cena, whereas 2 and 3 years ago they didn't really have faith in guys like Benoit, Jericho, Eddie, BT, and RVD. All of those guys were given mediocre pushes, but really the people making the decisions had no intentions of investing time and money into making them top stars. With Cena and Orton (WWE homegrown talent) there is a sense that the comapny wants to make them the new stars for the future.

That's good then. Let's just pray that the WWE pushes them 'the right way' in the mid-cards.

Edge is an example of a guy they planned on pushing, but due to injuries he obviously couldn't be pushed. If you look at what he was doing before the injury, he was having good matches with a lot of different guys, and getting a lot of wins. It was just a matter of time before they pushed him to that next level. They did give him the KOTR win a little too early, but when they decided to push him it was a strong push.

Speaking of Edge, do you really think he was *that* popular? I think Edge was popular, but was he as really as popular as guys like RVD, Jericho, and Cena? (let alone his predecessors Austin, The Rock, etc.).

With Lesnar, he's a little different. He was given the 'Goldberg' monster push, and they did a great job with that (until the day after Summerslam). The only problem is that you cant do that with everyone. So, the way they pushed Lesnar isn't going to be the same way you push guys like Cena and Orton.

Good point, but I think that the WWE could get away with it if they did it with Orton (and Cena). Just no one else from that point onwards.

I like the concept of Orton getting wins over Foley and Rock, but that might be too much too soon. People have to accept that Orton is at the level where he can beat Foley, but to have him beat Rock only a month later, in my opinion might be too much too soon. I'd rather see Orton beat Foley either at Mania or Backlash, and then maybe 6 months from now he beats Rock. That way people will have had even more time to accept Orton as a main event guy, before having him go over the biggest PPV draw in history.

True. I guess it works either way. I was just imagining the type of momentum that Orton would have with back to back wins over Foley and The Rock (and then soon to be followed over Ric Flair and Triple H).

With Orton then as champ, it allows guys like Jericho and RVD to 'step up' and contend for the belt.

But like you said - If Orton becomes champ, perhaps the fans' will perceive the belt to be a 'mid-card level belt.

I dont agree with the thinking that just because Orton beats Rock he is automatically over to the point where he makes RVD and Booker T a main event star. You actually run the risk of making the World Title become a mid card title like it was when Angle got his first reign, or even HHH when he got his first couple of reigns. To me, thats just about the worst thing that can happen. I mean you take Angle, and he beat Rock for his first title, but really fans weren't ready for it, what happened was that Angle as champ was relegated to the mid card. I think the same would happen if Orton were to win the big gold belt in the next three months people would see the World Title as a mid card title.

Keep in mind however, that Angle never had any convincing victories during his title reign (nor did Jericho). In both cases, both men cheated in all of their matches to win and therefore, didn't gain credibility. Ditto for Triple H when he first won the title. His win over Austin looked very flukey.

Would the same thing happen if Orton convincingly defeated Foley and The Rock cleanly? (to be followed with a clean win over Ric Flair, and then a semi-clean win over Triple H).

If you wait, Orton gets built up, and people see him as an uncrowned champ, and then when he gets the belt, people are like "yeah that makes sense", and they will accept it. Of course, like I mentioned the key is that they keep him strong, which I believe they will knowing what I know.

I hope you're right. I just worry that in the absence of Goldberg and Triple H, the fans won't really perceive anyone to be a 'main-eventer' due to the fact that guys like RVD, Jericho, etc. have been made to look 'inferior' for so long.



Just a quick thought with Benoit. If Benoit won the title from Triple H, would you consider him to be in the same position as Angle from a few years ago? (i.e. the fans will perceive the Raw World title to be a 'midcard' title).

I guess this depends on Triple H, but do you think he'll do the CLEAN job to Benoit?