DISCUSSION - Is anyone else UNIMPRESSED with Chris Benoit and Edge as FACES?

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight DISCUSSION: Why does Heyman obssess over homsexuality?

I'm not sure where this originated from to be honest. For whatever reason, I always get disturbing mental images of Jim Ross giving a double handjob to Test and Albert.....and then I laugh.....and then feel the need to say something homosexual-related.

[Kane Knight]

That disturbs me a little. Did you have an encounter with a priest or Michael Jackson when you were younger?

[Rob]

I love how people say X wrestler can't bring in new fans. Do any of you actually talk to people who don't watch wrestling about wrestling angles? More than likely not. Any research I do is when I talk to my friends who used to watch and don't know. One week before No Way Out, I told 6 of my friends who all lost interest with wrestling that Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit were getting the world titles on the next 2 PPVs and since then they have all watched more shows than me. They also like what they are seeing because it's different from what they last saw.

A couple of my friends who didn't understand the Benoit love years ago from the smarts told me when they watched Backlash that "Benoit just looked so bad ass. He has that added X factor". I watched the show later and totally saw they meant. Just the way he walks around with the belt, posing right in front of Michaels and Hunter and shouting in their faces after the match. He has that added cockiness and the promos will come in due time (nobody can deny that they are slowly getting better each week). Also, matches get all and people are never gonna see a bad Chris Benoit match.

[The CyNick]

First things first, the WWE was never drawing 7 and 8s consistantly. They were doing 6's consistantly for a while there, but not 7s and 8s. You have to remember that was when WCW was around, and people were switching back and forth between RAW and NItro. After WCW was bought by WWE, the old WCW fans (generally an older crowd, 30+) left with WCW. In theory those fans would probably like a guy like Benoit on top because he's created in the mold of ex-NWA champs more than ex-WWE champs.

Jerihco will not bring in any new fans, he's been with the WWE for a long time, and he's never brought in droves of fans. Granted he's never been given a chance to be a serious main eventer (ie the top guy) but at this point fans are accustomed to seeing him as a goofball and as a result I dont see them ever taking him seriously as the top guy in the company. Not to rag on Heyman, but a lot of times you seem blinded by pops. Yeah Jericho gets great pops, but thats meaningless (well almost meaningless), money is what really counts. I cant see Jericho bringing in new fans anymore than I can see Benoit or Eddie doing it.

In terms of Christian, I think he's in a fine position. Orton is a main event guy now (although this program with Benjamin will likely hault that), and should be mixing with the top guys now. Christian isn't at that level yet, and in a sense he should take Orton's spot from last year. I said in another thread that they should have put Christian in a feud with Shelton (they could have some great matches and put each other over), and then give Christian some matches with guys like HBK and Benoit. He doesn't have to win those (maybe squeeze out a cheesy win over HBK at some point), but just going toe to toe with those guys would continue his elevation. This relates to Jerihco as well, because Christian now has multiple victories over Jericho, and the reaction to him by the crowd as a World Title contender was less than enthusiastic. Why? Because nobody takes Jericho seriously as a top guy. On the other hand, Orton beats Foley and you can see the fans see Orton in a new light. So Christian still needs a good year of working upper level mid card spots before he can get any kind of serious run to the top.

Back to Benoit: I agree that Orton shouldn't win the title yet, so he probably shouldn't feud with Benoit, and the only other guy is HHH. A couple of posts back you mentioned Edge being lame as a babyface so far, and I kinda agree. I think he's trying, but I just dont see him connecting with the fans like say Benoit or HBK does. To be fair, he's just come back, but you'd think after being gone so long he would be over like rover. Also being paired with Kane was another shot in the pants, but still, I dont think things are looking good. I like the idea of Edge as a heel, because then he could do something with him and Benoit. Couple of problems though; first I think they should do the RVD-Eddie friendship deal leading to a RVD heel turn on SD, so I dont think they should run the exact same program on RAW with Edge and Benoit. The other problem is that Edge has a book due out in November I believe, and thats not going to sell well if he's a heel. Whats more likely is that they save him as a babyface to fued with HHH in the Fall. So its tough there aren't a lot of guys for Benoit to program with outside HBK and HHH, which is why I'm sure HHH will get the title back, maybe even in June.

As for Cena and Orton being on the same show, I dont think its the best idea. First, we dont yet know that either one of them can carry the company, we have suspicions but no real proof as of yet. Furthermore, if you take the two hottest up and comers and put them on the same show, it makes that show seem superior (although that already has happened), the WWE claims they want the two shows ot be equal. Finally, I think Cena-Orton could be a huge money match say for Wrestlemania 23, 24 or 25 (now thats long term booking!!). I'd like to see both guys dominate their brand for some time and then come together at some point to create the ultimate RAW vs Smackdown dream match. In theory thats one of the big benefits of the brand extesnion, creating aritifically dream matches. Will it work? Maybe maybe not, but its wirth keeping them apart to find out.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Rob I love how people say X wrestler can't bring in new fans. Do any of you actually talk to people who don't watch wrestling about wrestling angles? More than likely not. Any research I do is when I talk to my friends who used to watch and don't know. One week before No Way Out, I told 6 of my friends who all lost interest with wrestling that Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit were getting the world titles on the next 2 PPVs and since then they have all watched more shows than me. They also like what they are seeing because it's different from what they last saw. A couple of my friends who didn't understand the Benoit love years ago from the smarts told me when they watched Backlash that "Benoit just looked so bad ass. He has that added X factor". I watched the show later and totally saw they meant. Just the way he walks around with the belt, posing right in front of Michaels and Hunter and shouting in their faces after the match. He has that added cockiness and the promos will come in due time (nobody can deny that they are slowly getting better each week). Also, matches get all and people are never gonna see a bad Chris Benoit match.

Its almost impossible to know what will draw, you just have to be ready to capitalize when someone gets hot.

I mean most of my friends who only watched wrestling when they were kids (Hogan era) and the peak of the Attitude era dont care much for Benoit (except for the fact that he's Canadian....errrr Atlantian), they look at him and I've actually had multiple people say this to me: "like Benoit could actually take Kane". So for some people, if you aint big you cant be a main eventer.

[Rob]

I'm not saying they will draw. I'm saying fresh faces will bring fans back as long as the product is still good.

[CBright7831]

*Triple H's theme starts*

Crowd: ...

*Triple H appears*

Crowd: ...

Lilian Garcia: Making his way down to the ring, from Greenwich, CT. He is the WWE World Champion, TRIPLE H!

Crowd: ...

*Triple H spits water*

Dumb guy in crowd: yeah!

The rest of the crowd: ...

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight That disturbs me a little. Did you have an encounter with a priest or Michael Jackson when you were younger?

Yes. With Michael Jackson.

It was 11 years ago in 1993. I was still a young boy at the time.

It was very fun.

Michael Jackson was very nice, and I went on a lot of rides there at the amusement park.

On my last day there, I had wine and alcohol for first time in my life. Michael Jackson gave it to me.

I got drunk for the first time.

I don't remember what else happened that night, but I remember sleeping in same bed as Michael Jackson.

The next day, my parents came and picked me up from Michael Jackson's ranch. We went home.

For the next week, I always shitted funny. Whenever I shit, it sprayed everywhere in the toilet. I must've had some bad food at Michael Jackson's place.......but my stomach didn't feel upset.

It was strange.

A few years later (circa 1999), I put two and two together and figured out what really had transpired.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by The CyNick First things first, the WWE was never drawing 7 and 8s consistantly. They were doing 6's consistantly for a while there, but not 7s and 8s. You have to remember that was when WCW was around, and people were switching back and forth between RAW and NItro. After WCW was bought by WWE, the old WCW fans (generally an older crowd, 30+) left with WCW. In theory those fans would probably like a guy like Benoit on top because he's created in the mold of ex-NWA champs more than ex-WWE champs.

Excellent point.

Jerihco will not bring in any new fans, he's been with the WWE for a long time, and he's never brought in droves of fans. Granted he's never been given a chance to be a serious main eventer (ie the top guy) but at this point fans are accustomed to seeing him as a goofball and as a result I dont see them ever taking him seriously as the top guy in the company. Not to rag on Heyman, but a lot of times you seem blinded by pops. Yeah Jericho gets great pops, but thats meaningless (well almost meaningless), money is what really counts. I cant see Jericho bringing in new fans anymore than I can see Benoit or Eddie doing it.

Hmmmmmm.............

Out of the current guys in the WWE right now, who do you think has potential to BRING IN new fans? (other than Kane ). I'd say Randy Orton and John Cena obviously, but do you see any one else?

Also..........if the WWE ever came to their senses and decided to re-build RVD, do you think he could ever draw? :::knows the answer to this question:::

In terms of Christian, I think he's in a fine position. Orton is a main event guy now (although this program with Benjamin will likely hault that), and should be mixing with the top guys now. Christian isn't at that level yet, and in a sense he should take Orton's spot from last year. I said in another thread that they should have put Christian in a feud with Shelton (they could have some great matches and put each other over), and then give Christian some matches with guys like HBK and Benoit. He doesn't have to win those (maybe squeeze out a cheesy win over HBK at some point), but just going toe to toe with those guys would continue his elevation. This relates to Jerihco as well, because Christian now has multiple victories over Jericho, and the reaction to him by the crowd as a World Title contender was less than enthusiastic. Why? Because nobody takes Jericho seriously as a top guy. On the other hand, Orton beats Foley and you can see the fans see Orton in a new light. So Christian still needs a good year of working upper level mid card spots before he can get any kind of serious run to the top.

Great point about Orton/Foley, Christian/Jericho. I think there was more "reaction" to Orton beating Foley however, because it was a much bigger upset. Christian beating Jericho isn't that big of an upset.

You make another great point about Christian taking Orton's spot from last year. Christian + Benjamin = boner . Going up against HBK should also augment his status.

Back to Benoit: I agree that Orton shouldn't win the title yet, so he probably shouldn't feud with Benoit, and the only other guy is HHH. A couple of posts back you mentioned Edge being lame as a babyface so far, and I kinda agree. I think he's trying, but I just dont see him connecting with the fans like say Benoit or HBK does. To be fair, he's just come back, but you'd think after being gone so long he would be over like rover. Also being paired with Kane was another shot in the pants, but still, I dont think things are looking good. I like the idea of Edge as a heel, because then he could do something with him and Benoit. Couple of problems though; first I think they should do the RVD-Eddie friendship deal leading to a RVD heel turn on SD, so I dont think they should run the exact same program on RAW with Edge and Benoit. The other problem is that Edge has a book due out in November I believe, and thats not going to sell well if he's a heel. Whats more likely is that they save him as a babyface to fued with HHH in the Fall. So its tough there aren't a lot of guys for Benoit to program with outside HBK and HHH, which is why I'm sure HHH will get the title back, maybe even in June.

RVD + heel turn = Boner

I wouldn't worry too much about Smackdown being parallel with Raw. The WWE doesn't seem to care too much either. On Smackdown, they hook Jindrak up with Long. On Raw? Cade with Coach. Raw --> Benjamin is a face. Smackdown --> Hass has turned face (I think....I don't get SD).

Raw and Smackdown have a lot of existing parallels anyways, and so I don't think it's too detrimental to continue this trend.

As for Cena and Orton being on the same show, I dont think its the best idea. First, we dont yet know that either one of them can carry the company, we have suspicions but no real proof as of yet. Furthermore, if you take the two hottest up and comers and put them on the same show, it makes that show seem superior (although that already has happened), the WWE claims they want the two shows ot be equal. Finally, I think Cena-Orton could be a huge money match say for Wrestlemania 23, 24 or 25 (now thats long term booking!!). I'd like to see both guys dominate their brand for some time and then come together at some point to create the ultimate RAW vs Smackdown dream match. In theory thats one of the big benefits of the brand extesnion, creating aritifically dream matches. Will it work? Maybe maybe not, but its wirth keeping them apart to find out.

Another awesome point.

What would I without you CyNick.

p.s. At this point in HBK's career, do you think the fans would buy into him being heel?

[Rock Bottom]

Yes, an HBK heel turn wouldn't be hard at all. I mean you'd still have Michaels fans, same goes with anyone really, but... He got heat when he superkicked Benoit to sign that contract on RAW. Then Benoit has been getting more and more over, and Benoit just went over Michaels with a submission in that Backlash match. Now if Michaels were to do something dick-headed, I'm sure the fans would have no problem booing him.

The reason I bring up Benoit getting more over, is because he is restoring an element to wrestling... Called making main-eventers tap out. We have been fed so many guys (Austin, Rock, Triple H, Michaels, etc...) that don't tap cleanly... I mean honestly, when is the last time you seen any of these guys lose a match to submission? Last time I saw Rock do it, he was a midcarder jobbing to Shamrock. Last time I saw Austin do it... Was... I can't even remember.

It's such a big deal now that fans are going to chant, "YOU TAPPED OUT," to anyone who does that's main event, basically because "no one taps out," and it pussifies them, in a way, in some peoples' eyes. It's an odd point, but Benoit's submission victories are going to get people behind him.