Who is this Kenta?

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Out of all the cards WWE runs a year, house shows, ppvs, and anything else, I would argue not even 20% of them are better than what ROH/NOAH/Dragon Gate put on a year.

Fuck, 20% of what WWE does now isn't better than what they did in the Attitude era.

Here's the thing. If you don't like the ROH style, the Chikara style, the NOAH style, the NJPW style, the Dragon Gate style, AJPW style, etc, then good for you. And yes, all of those styles are different (although AJPW and NOAH are close.)

Don't however try to blindly bash them when you really have no fucking clue what you're talking about. If you've only seen a handful of ROH matches, or a handful of Japanese matches, then shut the fuck up. And don't try to act like fans of them are some elitist sub group of the IWC just because they actually prefer something other than WWE and are willing to say "Hey, these people put on better shows that I find more entertaining than WWE, so I will talk about this instead."

WWE cannot book one consistently good show to save it's ass, let alone a month of good shows.

So far, I've yet to be watching ROH, or any Japanese fed and go "Man, I feel embarrassed for watching this." I also don't question why I'm watching it, where with WWE, I do, constantly.

I would love for WWE to get better. They aren't however. As a wrestling fan, I'm going to find wrestling I enjoy. Period.


Also, Keiji Muto/ The Great Muta is a Japanese wrestler who was big in America.

On a different note, the names in all capital Romanji stems, I want to believe, from AKIRA, and it's because it denotes a big ego/cockiness, etc. Some people also take it as a sign they're a heel, but I don't think so.

Also, I've been able to get more people to watch/ enjoy ROH/Japanese wrestling than I ever have WWE.

[The One]

Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do? Here's the thing. If you don't like the ROH style, the Chikara style, the NOAH style, the NJPW style, the Dragon Gate style, AJPW style, etc, then good for you. And yes, all of those styles are different (although AJPW and NOAH are close.) Don't however try to blindly bash them when you really have no fucking clue what you're talking about. If you've only seen a handful of ROH matches, or a handful of Japanese matches, then shut the fuck up. And don't try to act like fans of them are some elitist sub group of the IWC just because they actually prefer something other than WWE and are willing to say "Hey, these people put on better shows that I find more entertaining than WWE, so I will talk about this instead."

The difference as I see it...

The Japan Wrestling Mark

Random Person: Japanese style of wrestling sucks.

Japan/RoH Mark: OH my god! Ok, so you'd would rather have McMahon reaching into JR's asshole, Superman John Cena, and dumb ass TNA action than good classic all out beautiful technical matches which arn't over quicker than the entrances? You'd rather see Khali smash people than see Kenta and Samoa Joe tear the house down? Who cares how big our audience is, it's full of smart people who appreciate the art!!!

---

and now...

The American Wrestling Mark

Random Person: American Wrestling is a horrific shame, a disgrace, and continues to reach lows every day.

American Mark: No shit, where have you been the past 7 years!

---

See what I mean? The fact is, for some [most] people, the Japan style of wrestling, as well as the RoH (which is just a kind of odd mixture of Japan and Cruiserweight style) is boring and bland. You may see a technical classic, I see some guys with a lack of real skill doing hard chops and kicks to cover for the fact that they don't much know how to put together an interesting match. Now, if you view it differently, that's fine. But the response of how terrible WWE and TNA are doesn't mean jack shit. Hell yeah, the gimmicks/angles/just about everything including match quality sucks ass right now. Just because I DISLIKE Japan/RoH does NOT mean I like America's current product. The only reason I continue to watch American wrestling (which let's be fair, I watch maybe 30 minutes a week now a days) is because at least at some point that style of show did entertainment, even if it doesn't now. AJPW, NJPW, NOAH, Dragon Gate, RoH...not a one of those has provided me with a real reason to ever enjoy the product. Actually, I'll call a spade a spade, RoH's first show's Main Event with Daniels/LowKi/Danielson was good, but only because I so enjoyed Daniels work, hell he could have done the same stuff with two dummies for all I cared.

I don't feel like going on much more about this, but I will close it by saying that having the snobish attitude of "We're totally better" when you are in the minority comes across as eleitest. Granted American fans have the same attitude, but when you're in the overwhelming majority, it's more a mob mentality than any kind of snooty superiority complex thing. Fair? Probably not...just the way things are at the end of the day. Just my two cents.

[Mr. Monday Morning]

Originally Posted by The One You may see a technical classic, I see some guys with a lack of real skill doing hard chops and kicks to cover for the fact that they don't much know how to put together an interesting match.

I find it hilarious when some people say guys on the indys can't work, like they know what they're talking about, and then lambast Cena for being unable to have a good match. Jesus christ.

But the response of how terrible WWE and TNA are doesn't mean jack shit.

It does when people constantly bitch and moan about how WWE sucks nowadays but refuse to even consider watching anything different. Those kind of people annoy the fuck out of me and cause most of the problems that lead to this kind of discourse.

Hell yeah, the gimmicks/angles/just about everything including match quality sucks ass right now.

Oddly enough I disagree, but whatever. There will usually be at least 1 thing a week that I feel the need to see on WWE TV.

Just because I DISLIKE Japan/RoH does NOT mean I like America's current product.

That's slightly different from saying "I fucking hate RoH, RoH marks, etc etc" and you know it.

The only reason I continue to watch American wrestling (which let's be fair, I watch maybe 30 minutes a week now a days) is because at least at some point that style of show did entertainment, even if it doesn't now. AJPW, NJPW, NOAH, Dragon Gate, RoH...not a one of those has provided me with a real reason to ever enjoy the product

Ugh, god, 'the product'....eh, never mind. Most of this stuff shouldn't really apply to you since you watch lucha, which I've found harder to get into than anything else I have come across. I can sit and watch old Sammartino matches easier than I can watch modern lucha. And believe me, there are plenty of people who consider themselves superior because they 'get' lucha whereas other people don't. So I'd imagine you would understand where we're coming from, as someone who *doesn't* go out of his way to act like that.

The main problem, as I see it, is that most of the people on this board who actually watch RoH, or indys in general, are not particularly elitist about it. Yet we get lumped in with the idiots that are, mostly by people who don't actually know what they're talking about. You're an exception in this case as you've actually bothered to sample some of the stuff, but you can't deny that there are dumbfucks who just make ridiculously broad generalisations.

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by Mr. Monday Morning In 5 years the internet will have turned the whole planet into one giant country, so you're wrong there.

Actually that proves I'm right, because the king of Lichtenstein won't be worth anything, and neither will being "big in Japan."

[Mr. Monday Morning]

No, it doesn't. I never said he would be "big in Japan" I said

in about 5 years KENTA will be at the top of what is at the moment the #1 promotion in Japan

and if things go as I just said NOAH would end up being the #2 promotion in the new unified country.

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by Mr. Monday Morning No, it doesn't. I never said he would be "big in Japan" I said and if things go as I just said NOAH would end up being the #2 promotion in the new unified country.

So he'll basically be on par with Christian, Angle, Jarrett and Joe.

[The One]

Originally Posted by Mr. Monday Morning I find it hilarious when some people say guys on the indys can't work, like they know what they're talking about, and then lambast Cena for being unable to have a good match. Jesus christ.

I'll be the first to say that some guys on the indy scene could fuckin tear the house down. Now, to be fair, they couldn't if it was at the next WWE PPV. Similar to how the style of performing is different to Japan and America (and remember I am speaking in INCREDIBLY large generalizations), the style of working a crowd of 300 people is different to working a crowd of 30,000 people, and it takes time to relearn the craft to be good at doing your thing on a national stage. For people who have only watch WWE or WCW when they were doing shows with 30,000 people in the audience, they simply have not developed a taste for the style of match that NOAH or RoH do.

Originally Posted by MMM It does when people constantly bitch and moan about how WWE sucks nowadays but refuse to even consider watching anything different. Those kind of people annoy the fuck out of me and cause most of the problems that lead to this kind of discourse.

Being dissatisfied with what you've got, yeah then go check out someone different, if you don't like that, you're not going to stick with the second thing you dislike, you're going to stick with the original thing you did like at some point, but bitch about how the first thing sucks right now.

Originally Posted by MMM Oddly enough I disagree, but whatever. There will usually be at least 1 thing a week that I feel the need to see on WWE TV.

I have two things I enjoy as well...SHAWN MICHAELS and KEVIN NASH.

Originally Posted by MMM That's slightly different from saying "I fucking hate RoH, RoH marks, etc etc" and you know it.

Pardon me, if the truth is told I don't think about RoH or it's marks once I step away from my computer. So maybe hate is a strong word...but let's get real, typically I speak in dramatic overtones with gross generalizations...I'm pretty sure you know that about me by now.

Originally Posted by MMM Ugh, god, 'the product'....eh, never mind. Most of this stuff shouldn't really apply to you since you watch lucha, which I've found harder to get into than anything else I have come across. I can sit and watch old Sammartino matches easier than I can watch modern lucha. And believe me, there are plenty of people who consider themselves superior because they 'get' lucha whereas other people don't. So I'd imagine you would understand where we're coming from, as someone who *doesn't* go out of his way to act like that.

Uh, anyone who considers themselves cultured or cool or superior for liking Lucha is fucking retarded. Yeah I like it, but come on, it's a bunch of little Mexican guys running all over the place barely making contact with one another. Personally, it's exciting to watch, but it's nothing that requires taste or refinement...hell their largest audience is Mexican.

But again, about my earlier point of being in the majority vs. being in the minority. The majority prefers WWE to RoH. So when someone says that despite all it's current downfalls, "WWE is the best company in the world right now" it's look at as normal because that's how the silent majority feels. When someone says the same thing about RoH it's look at as snobish because they are in the minority. Also, let's be fair, culturally people who like the "underground" things in any realm...more often than not; attempting to be cool and ahead of the curve.

Originally Posted by MMM The main problem, as I see it, is that most of the people on this board who actually watch RoH, or indys in general, are not particularly elitist about it. Yet we get lumped in with the idiots that are, mostly by people who don't actually know what they're talking about. You're an exception in this case as you've actually bothered to sample some of the stuff, but you can't deny that there are dumbfucks who just make ridiculously broad generalisations.

No, I agree there are probably a lot of people who have never watched a second yet assume they would hate it. And for that they should at least give it a shot. But I'm willing to bet that most people around here have at least been assed enough to go spend 30 minutes or so YouTube hunting for some big match that was hyped by certain internet writers with hard ons for pink clad Canadians and Japanese pro wrestling...

To be fair, no one here is very elitist about their enjoyment of RoH or Japan, and even for the most part your devotion to such things is contained in a very limited number of threads with the sole purpose of discussing it with other RoH or Japan wrestling marks. The only time you're not, and this isn't your fault just something that makes you stick out like a sore thumb is when people talk about favorite matches or favorite wrestlers and the list go like...

Rock
Austin
Taker
MICHAELS
Kenta Kobashi
Benoit

It's like everyone has seen almost the entire top qulaity part of their career, but then here comes someone who they've seen maybe a match or two of and it's just like...WTF!? Again, this is not being snobish or elitist, it's just something that naturally calls attention to you, and since that is the secret goal of everyone who pretend to be "underground" so they can appear cool, it's a thin line to walk on...ya know? Like I said, I don't think anyone here likes Japan or RoH to be cool, it's just an all too similar situation to ones that we've all been in before.

On a final note, I would like to officially take this time to explain why I personally dislike Japan_style wrestling. Problem one is that I am a big big fan of storylines, something I just can't fallow in Japan as well, and when I say angles I mean all of it, right down to the announcers throwing a bit of emotion in to it as well. Problem two is that I hate hard/stiff style, I don't know why, just if someone starts to work really stiff with the chops (other than FLAIR of course) and kicks, I turn off...something there is a lot of in Japan. Problem three is that before I ever watched a single thing from Japan all I had heard about was how great it was, and quite frankly, nothing could have lived up to my expectations. I left after that first viewing disappointed. Once you've become disappointed with something, it takes an incredible event to change your mind about it. First impressions and all. And I think that's what gets a lot of people. They see smart knowledgeable wrestling mark talk about how great "Brand X" is. If Brand X doesn't live up to the hype, it's hard to break that from that point on.

Anyway, I guess I'm now up to 4 cents worth of opinions. Someone better pay up!

[Mr. Monday Morning]

Originally Posted by DarthTedious So he'll basically be on par with Christian, Angle, Jarrett and Joe.

When was the last time TNA drew 13000

[chrisat928]

If you add up their last two PPVs and every impact show from the last two months, that might add up to 13,000.

Maybe.
Possibly.

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by Mr. Monday Morning When was the last time TNA drew 13000

When was the last time TNA was a top promotion anywhere? It's not like people in Japan can say "fuck you, I go see double-double-e."

I mean they CAN say that, because, you know, they don't speak English and stuff. But I mean, yeah, the top company in Japan had better be able to draw, or else they've got more problems than just this KENTA guy and his ability or lack thereof.

[Mr. Monday Morning]

Originally Posted by The One To be fair, no one here is very elitist about their enjoyment of RoH or Japan, and even for the most part your devotion to such things is contained in a very limited number of threads with the sole purpose of discussing it with other RoH or Japan wrestling marks. The only time you're not, and this isn't your fault just something that makes you stick out like a sore thumb is when people talk about favorite matches or favorite wrestlers and the list go like... Rock Austin Taker MICHAELS Kenta Kobashi Benoit It's like everyone has seen almost the entire top qulaity part of their career, but then here comes someone who they've seen maybe a match or two of and it's just like...WTF!? Again, this is not being snobish or elitist, it's just something that naturally calls attention to you, and since that is the secret goal of everyone who pretend to be "underground" so they can appear cool, it's a thin line to walk on...ya know? Like I said, I don't think anyone here likes Japan or RoH to be cool, it's just an all too similar situation to ones that we've all been in before.

Well, I can't argue that point, cause I do do that. But if I didn't, I'd be kinda lieing. Soooooooo...yeah, tricky thing. Dunno, I don't have access to WWE or TNA except through downloading, so oddly enough I have more exposure to most things non-mainstream through circumstance as well as choice. With that said, there's probably not a better wrestler right now than Cena, IMHO *shrug*

On a final note, I would like to officially take this time to explain why I personally dislike Japan_style wrestling. Problem one is that I am a big big fan of storylines, something I just can't fallow in Japan as well, and when I say angles I mean all of it, right down to the announcers throwing a bit of emotion in to it as well. Problem two is that I hate hard/stiff style, I don't know why, just if someone starts to work really stiff with the chops (other than FLAIR of course) and kicks, I turn off...something there is a lot of in Japan. Problem three is that before I ever watched a single thing from Japan all I had heard about was how great it was, and quite frankly, nothing could have lived up to my expectations. I left after that first viewing disappointed. Once you've become disappointed with something, it takes an incredible event to change your mind about it. First impressions and all. And I think that's what gets a lot of people. They see smart knowledgeable wrestling mark talk about how great "Brand X" is. If Brand X doesn't live up to the hype, it's hard to break that from that point on.

I'd think those are the same for most people who feel similar, to be honest. There are infrequently storyline-esque feuds (Misawa vs Kawada for example - two guys who trained together, started at the same time, Misawa found great success early and was the rising star, while Kawada was left to become a basically bitter fuck living in Misawa's shadow - they basically carried it over 15 years, on and off) but to be honest most of it is done through the matches.

Point three I definitely concur with though as that's how I still feel about lucha. I watched some Mistico vs Perro Aguayo Jr (sp) match on youtube that was meant to be lucha MOTY and found it boring as all hell. I have seen some fairly neat stuff since then but it's *so* different to anything else I have to really concentrate to even be able to watch it.

I am glad you avoided the term smark though. God damn Pillman for ever making marks think they were smart.

[Mr. Monday Morning]

Originally Posted by DarthTedious When was the last time TNA was a top promotion anywhere? It's not like people in Japan can say "fuck you, I go see double-double-e." I mean they CAN say that, because, you know, they don't speak English and stuff. But I mean, yeah, the top company in Japan had better be able to draw, or else they've got more problems than just this KENTA guy and his ability or lack thereof.

You just basically made my point though. TNA is the #2 company in a huge market, yet gets outdrawn on a regular basis by the #3 or #4 company in Japan. So the comparison isn't valid.