Wake me up when december ends

[Big Vic]

Didn't watch Raw but CyNick was stating earlier how Cesaro vs Show would continue and end up with Cesaro looking good in the end. I know it wouldn't have have ended last night but did it continue at all?

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Big Vic Didn't watch Raw but CyNick was stating earlier how Cesaro vs Show would continue and end up with Cesaro looking good in the end. I know it wouldn't have have ended last night but did it continue at all?

They didn't do anything. My guess is to not muddy the waters. Need to focus on Show vs Lesnar.

My guess is Cesaro gets back in his face either right after MSG or after HIAC leading into Survivor Series. Then Cesaro goes after the IC or US titles.

[Mr. JL]

I think most fans already KNOW whoever they pit against Brock Lesnar on a Network special is going to job so why not put someone different in there to help elevate them and to see something new?

We have all seen Brock Lesnar versus the Big Show on more than one occasion. Yes, Lesnar can overhead suplex, german suplex, F-5 and superplex him from the top rope.

Could have been ANOTHER breakout match for Cesaro, even in a losing situation.

Hell, even have the Undertaker make a distraction appearance and Cesaro steals a victory. It won't hurt Lesnar at all and would only add more fuel to the Hell in the Cell match while giving another guy a huge rub.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Mr. JL I think most fans already KNOW whoever they pit against Brock Lesnar on a Network special is going to job so why not put someone different in there to help elevate them and to see something new? We have all seen Brock Lesnar versus the Big Show on more than one occasion. Yes, Lesnar can overhead suplex, german suplex, F-5 and superplex him from the top rope. Could have been ANOTHER breakout match for Cesaro, even in a losing situation. Hell, even have the Undertaker make a distraction appearance and Cesaro steals a victory. It won't hurt Lesnar at all and would only add more fuel to the Hell in the Cell match while giving another guy a huge rub.

But again, you're missing the key part in all this. There's absolutely nothing impressive about Lesnar beating Cesaro. Cesaro and Lesnar are not in the same league. If Lesnar beats Cesaro, it would be no different that Lesnar beating Kofi in Japan. That didnt exactly elevate Kofi. Big Show at the very least is a physical monster, and Lesnar doing big power moves to him are impressive. Plus they have a history that is unique. Heyman screwed Lesnar in the Garden and went with Show.

They obviously have a larger plan for Lesnar. He shouldnt be losing to guys at Cesaro's level at this stage. Maybe in 18 months if Cesaro has been slowly built up, he could be in a position to go over a guy like Lesnar on route to becoming a headliner.

[Damian Rey]

I don' like the idea of Lesnar losing do under card guys because WWE has shown zero ability to utilize guys after a big win.

I'd just rather see something other than another Big Show Lesnar match that's been basically admitted to happening countless times.

I know CyNick believes they'll move Cesaro back to Big Show once that match has passed but I'm not sure what indication has ever been given to lead one to believe Cesaro will ever be used more than as a solid hand to give guys a good ten to fifteen minutes.

[Mr. JL]

Originally Posted by Damian Rey I don' like the idea of Lesnar losing do under card guys because WWE has shown zero ability to utilize guys after a big win. I'd just rather see something other than another Big Show Lesnar match that's been basically admitted to happening countless times. I know CyNick believes they'll move Cesaro back to Big Show once that match has passed but I'm not sure what indication has ever been given to lead one to believe Cesaro will ever be used more than as a solid hand to give guys a good ten to fifteen minutes.

Yeah, this is true about WWE failing to capitalize on any big win momentum with undercard guys.

I agree there is not much indication on WWE's part. I think the Cesaro bandwagon mostly comes from the hopes of bored fans at this point and the ratings reflect this.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Damian Rey I don' like the idea of Lesnar losing do under card guys because WWE has shown zero ability to utilize guys after a big win. I'd just rather see something other than another Big Show Lesnar match that's been basically admitted to happening countless times. I know CyNick believes they'll move Cesaro back to Big Show once that match has passed but I'm not sure what indication has ever been given to lead one to believe Cesaro will ever be used more than as a solid hand to give guys a good ten to fifteen minutes.

He might never make it beyond upper mid card, but I do believe there is a larger story between him and Show at play. I'm just going by things the commentators say, and the layout of the matches. In most of the matches, Cesaro tries some power move, he sells it, and it leads to the loss. I think the logic is to help put over when Lesnar does it to Show effectively. But then in the future, it can a deal where Cesaro got even stronger, or learned to focus on winning, and not just crazy power moves. Then he will move up the card. Where he goes from there, is up to him, and how he gets himself over.

[Damian Rey]

Well there was zero mention of Cesaro during Big Shows segment last week. And he's never made it out of the midcard, let alone upper. It's just wishful thinking at this point. I'd wager a hefty sum that after Lesnar walks through Big Show, that'll be the end of that and Cesaro will not be magically revisited.

[The CyNick]

We'll see

I mean it doesnt really matter either way. I'm laying out what I see happening, but its very possible they are not happy with Cesaro's lack of progression and want to keep him where he is.

It'll give us more to talk about in the coming weeks. Let's see what they come up with.

[#1-norm-fan]

Originally Posted by The CyNick We'll see I mean it doesnt really matter either way.

Of course it doesn't matter either way because you'll sing the bookings praises regardless and when someone posts undeniable evidence like Daniel Bryan basically saying "Hey, CyNick... That thing you're saying about me... the guy who is speaking right now on the very subject you're trying to make a point about... You're completely wrong", you'll avoid it like the plague so you can still try to explain how the "monkeys on keyboards" nonsensical booking is top notch.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan Of course it doesn't matter either way because you'll sing the bookings praises regardless and when someone posts undeniable evidence like Daniel Bryan basically saying "Hey, CyNick... That thing you're saying about me... the guy who is speaking right now on the very subject you're trying to make a point about... You're completely wrong", you'll avoid it like the plague so you can still try to explain how the "monkeys on keyboards" nonsensical booking is top notch.

I'm happy to debate the Daniel Bryan thing with anyone. The reality is I to a fault, try to address any comments made to me. However, nobody on the side who thinks Daniel's push was never planned refuses to explain why he went over Cena clean if their were no long term plans for him. I guess Dave Meltzer never addressed that, so that side of the argument cant formulate a response.

Back to Cesaro. If it doesnt happen like I said it would, its likely because "plans change".

[Big Vic]

Originally Posted by The CyNick ...However, nobody on the side who thinks Daniel's push was never planned refuses to explain why he went over Cena clean if their were no long term plans for him. I guess Dave Meltzer never addressed that, so that side of the argument cant formulate a response.

dirt Sheets said that Vince was unhappy with the SummerSlam buyrate when it came in so he decided to switch gears.

[Big Vic]

Really think CyNick is trolling us now.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

CyNick is top notch in his commitment to his argument. I don't necessarily think he's trolling, I think he's doing his best to see the good in the programming. To US though, the programming sucks. It is subjective though, he can think it's as great as he wants... but he's not going to change our minds and we aren't going to change his.

I think the main issue, is as we've all gotten older (I think even Matt Hardy made this point) is we get into these awesome HBO shows and AMC shows and we want a little more sophistication in the product... and WWE ain't about that. I think there was a time (and no, not the attitude era) when they were. I think it was many moons ago. But wrestling takes a LONGGGG time to move with the times. Soon, Vince will be done, HHH will take over and we'll see what the product looks like then. I actually think the more sophisticated kind of product can be seen in the days of the territories, when it was treated as more of a sport than a spectacle. I personally think they need to treat the product as more of a sport as opposed to trying to make it a variety (three) hour(s) and an action show. Not to say they need to stop with making it a spectacle, it NEEDS to be a spectacle and grandiose, but dial it down about a billion fucking notches. Make it feel more real. Just because everyone knows it's scripted doesn't mean everything needs to seem incredibly scripted. But this is just the broken tape recording. Good t.v. is good t.v. And that doesn't mean 45 minute matches of work rate, that means exciting and fresh title matches, tournaments, feuds and results of feuds that mean something... DARE I SAY continuity in EVERY SINGLE story line.... and hell even having guys intermingle and feud with other guys while they're still feuding with someone else. Guys used to feud for years on end, continuing their feud while other guys came into the mix, but also only wrestling once or twice in that vicinity. Kevin Owens and John Cena wrestled 3 times in like a month. What the actual fuck. make it 6 months, and have different co-mingling feuds go on where both guys win and talk shit on each other and attack each other. It's not complicated.


/

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead CyNick is top notch in his commitment to his argument. I don't necessarily think he's trolling, I think he's doing his best to see the good in the programming. To US though, the programming sucks. It is subjective though, he can think it's as great as he wants... but he's not going to change our minds and we aren't going to change his. I think the main issue, is as we've all gotten older (I think even Matt Hardy made this point) is we get into these awesome HBO shows and AMC shows and we want a little more sophistication in the product... and WWE ain't about that. I think there was a time (and no, not the attitude era) when they were. I think it was many moons ago. But wrestling takes a LONGGGG time to move with the times. Soon, Vince will be done, HHH will take over and we'll see what the product looks like then. I actually think the more sophisticated kind of product can be seen in the days of the territories, when it was treated as more of a sport than a spectacle. I personally think they need to treat the product as more of a sport as opposed to trying to make it a variety (three) hour(s) and an action show. Not to say they need to stop with making it a spectacle, it NEEDS to be a spectacle and grandiose, but dial it down about a billion fucking notches. Make it feel more real. Just because everyone knows it's scripted doesn't mean everything needs to seem incredibly scripted. But this is just the broken tape recording. Good t.v. is good t.v. And that doesn't mean 45 minute matches of work rate, that means exciting and fresh title matches, tournaments, feuds and results of feuds that mean something... DARE I SAY continuity in EVERY SINGLE story line.... and hell even having guys intermingle and feud with other guys while they're still feuding with someone else. Guys used to feud for years on end, continuing their feud while other guys came into the mix, but also only wrestling once or twice in that vicinity. Kevin Owens and John Cena wrestled 3 times in like a month. What the actual fuck. make it 6 months, and have different co-mingling feuds go on where both guys win and talk shit on each other and attack each other. It's not complicated. /

Not all forms of entertainment should be the same though.

Why would you cater a show to a more adult audience? Modern sports entertainment for the most part (save the late 90s early 00's) was always geared towards the family, and specifically kids. Its a real life cartoon. What you have is a bunch of people in the 30s and 40s complaining that the show doesnt appeal to them. Its really strange.

When you promote to adults, you get one ticket, when you promote to kids, that kid needs to bring someone to the fights. There's benefits to keeping it that way.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Not all forms of entertainment should be the same though. Why would you cater a show to a more adult audience? Modern sports entertainment for the most part (save the late 90s early 00's) was always geared towards the family, and specifically kids. Its a real life cartoon. What you have is a bunch of people in the 30s and 40s complaining that the show doesnt appeal to them. Its really strange. When you promote to adults, you get one ticket, when you promote to kids, that kid needs to bring someone to the fights. There's benefits to keeping it that way.

Kids like good shows too. Don't be obtuse.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

For example, the Simpsons was a massive hit for all members of the family to enjoy throughout the 90s and put forth consistent quality. As per usual, your argument holds zero weight and has nothing to do with anything.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead For example, the Simpsons was a massive hit for all members of the family to enjoy throughout the 90s and put forth consistent quality. As per usual, your argument holds zero weight and has nothing to do with anything.

But their ratings are off their peak, therefore they must be in terrible shape, no?

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead Kids like good shows too. Don't be obtuse.

Yeah they do. Hence the continued dominance on cable on Mondays for low these years and years and years and years.

[Innovator]

Paraphrasing from something I read earlier, HBO isn't spending the majority of Game of Thrones telling us how great the Sopranos was.

[Innovator]

Something telling HHH said on the NXT panel, when something gets over that he didn't think would, he still runs with it. That is in direct contrast to Vince who kills anything organically gets over without consent.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I mean the thing to keep in mind, probably in Vince's mind is he can do whatever the fuck he wants... and realistically he can, so there's no stopping him lol.

[XL]

Basically we all need to stop watching.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Originally Posted by XL Basically we all need to stop watching.

Disagree entirely. They need to find new ways to draw in all demographics to the product, not whichever one they think will line their coffers the most.

[Heisenberg]

Originally Posted by DAMN iNATOR Disagree entirely. They need to find new ways to draw in all demographics to the product, not whichever one they think will line their coffers the most.

They are not budging on shit tho, that's the thing. I'd be content if they gave us back: the right to flip the bird, not take away crowd signs that are offensive, random backstage beatdowns, aggressive promos that are convincing, pee and poop jokes overload, skanks and meaningful stories from all feuds.


There's a built in storyline waiting to happen with WWE having the chance to go back to their uncensored roots and gain back a poopload of fans, but my time on waiting to see it LIVE on RAW is waning.

[Damian Rey]

Wait, wait, wait. Cesaro not getting this supposedly telegraphed push that CyNick thinks has been evident since his loss to Big Show, it's "plans change"n but Daniel Bryan getting shoehorned into the main event of Wrestlemania after being kept out of the main event for 3 months was part of the plan all along?

[Innovator]

Originally Posted by Damian Rey Wait, wait, wait. Cesaro not getting this supposedly telegraphed push that CyNick thinks has been evident since his loss to Big Show, it's "plans change"n but Daniel Bryan getting shoehorned into the main event of Wrestlemania after being kept out of the main event for 3 months was part of the plan all along?

[Big Vic]

Originally Posted by Damian Rey Wait, wait, wait. Cesaro not getting this supposedly telegraphed push that CyNick thinks has been evident since his loss to Big Show, it's "plans change"n but Daniel Bryan getting shoehorned into the main event of Wrestlemania after being kept out of the main event for 3 months was part of the plan all along?

Haha, was just going to say this.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Damian Rey Wait, wait, wait. Cesaro not getting this supposedly telegraphed push that CyNick thinks has been evident since his loss to Big Show, it's "plans change"n but Daniel Bryan getting shoehorned into the main event of Wrestlemania after being kept out of the main event for 3 months was part of the plan all along?

Doesn't get it.

Maybe my attempts at irony are too subtle.

[XL]

Originally Posted by Damian Rey Wait, wait, wait. Cesaro not getting this supposedly telegraphed push that CyNick thinks has been evident since his loss to Big Show, it's "plans change"n but Daniel Bryan getting shoehorned into the main event of Wrestlemania after being kept out of the main event for 3 months was part of the plan all along?

Let's be fair; he rubbished "dirtsheet" reporters who would use "plans changed" to cover when they weren't spot on with a story...then used it to cover when the story he's concocting doesn't come to fruition.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by XL Let's be fair; he rubbished "dirtsheet" reporters who would use "plans changed" to cover when they weren't spot on with a story...then used it to cover when the story he's concocting doesn't come to fruition.

This kid is going places

[Damian Rey]

Not to mention, losing out on the title 3 straight matches, getting pushed down the card, not being in the rumble, an losing again in February clearly left the door open for him to get back in the main event.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Damian Rey Not to mention, losing out on the title 3 straight matches, getting pushed down the card, not being in the rumble, an losing again in February clearly left the door open for him to get back in the main event.

You must have missed the storyline which was the WWE Universe kept voicing their feeling that Bryan should headline despite getting screwed by The Authority. It paid off with that deal in the ring with the fans. Don't know if you remember that. It was kinda critical to the whole journey.

[Damian Rey]

The fans voicing their opinion wasn't a storyline until they did the yes movement segment. Outside of using it to mock Bryan before dumping him down the card, it was largely ignored. Not to mention, nobody is arguing the road it took to get to Wrestlemania that year. The argument, well, fact really, was that it was completely unplanned and only when Vince's hand was forced in fear of having his main event drowned out with chants for a guy not in the match did the story change course.

To which again I challenge you to answer why Daniel Bryan would lie not only in non company interviews but company produced media about not being scheduled in the main event. He has said it a number of times that he was not the guy until the fans forced him to be. What reason is there to lie about that? It sure doesn't make WWE look good in bringing it public.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Damian Rey The fans voicing their opinion wasn't a storyline until they did the yes movement segment. Outside of using it to mock Bryan before dumping him down the card, it was largely ignored. Not to mention, nobody is arguing the road it took to get to Wrestlemania that year. The argument, well, fact really, was that it was completely unplanned and only when Vince's hand was forced in fear of having his main event drowned out with chants for a guy not in the match did the story change course. To which again I challenge you to answer why Daniel Bryan would lie not only in non company interviews but company produced media about not being scheduled in the main event. He has said it a number of times that he was not the guy until the fans forced him to be. What reason is there to lie about that? It sure doesn't make WWE look good in bringing it public.

How was he forced? Bryan was over for months, even before the build to Mania. He was over when he fought Cena. Hell, he was over the Mania where he fought Sheamus.

Its like some of you guys think Vince couldnt book Bryan down the card.

Here's how Vince completely buried Bryan

Summerslam - main event - beats Cena clean then gets screwed the same night out of the title
Night of Champions - main event - Bryan beats Orton clean
Battleground - main event - No contest with Orton
Hell in a Cell - main event - Loses but only because of a massive screwjob
Survivor Series - semi main event - works with Punk against Wyatts to start new program
TLC - semi main event - continues program with Wyatts
Rumble - continues feud with Wyatt (notice he loses a program to a heel. Would be cool if he were to win the title at Mania, they would have a heel with a built in reason for a program)
Chamber - Main event - (lost but only so they could shoot the angle on TV and maximize TV viewers)
Mania - beats HHH clean AND wins WWE title (Vince accidentally pays off 8 months of a top babyface getting screwed by having him go over on the biggest stage in entertainment).

Vince really screwed up here. Since his goal was to bury Daniel Bryan, he should have just put him with Hornswaggle dressed as a billygoat and called them the GOATs and go after the tag straps. I'm sure he regrets it to this day.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by The CyNick How was he forced? Bryan was over for months, even before the build to Mania. He was over when he fought Cena. Hell, he was over the Mania where he fought Sheamus. Its like some of you guys think Vince couldnt book Bryan down the card. Here's how Vince completely buried Bryan Summerslam - main event - beats Cena clean then gets screwed the same night out of the title Night of Champions - main event - Bryan beats Orton clean Battleground - main event - No contest with Orton Hell in a Cell - main event - Loses but only because of a massive screwjob Survivor Series - semi main event - works with Punk against Wyatts to start new program TLC - semi main event - continues program with Wyatts Rumble - continues feud with Wyatt (notice he loses a program to a heel. Would be cool if he were to win the title at Mania, they would have a heel with a built in reason for a program) Chamber - Main event - (lost but only so they could shoot the angle on TV and maximize TV viewers) Mania - beats HHH clean AND wins WWE title (Vince accidentally pays off 8 months of a top babyface getting screwed by having him go over on the biggest stage in entertainment). Vince really screwed up here. Since his goal was to bury Daniel Bryan, he should have just put him with Hornswaggle dressed as a billygoat and called them the GOATs and go after the tag straps. I'm sure he regrets it to this day.

I completely agree with this 1000% percent.


The only thing I would have done differently, would be in having Daniel Bryan winning cleanly over Wyatt, and then having Bryan get screwed in the actual Royal Rumble (Bryan enters).


The WWE were lucky that Bryan was 'over' to such a large extent, that losing cleanly to Bray didn't hurt him, but I'm a fan of that type of booking. When you've got a hot star like that, you protect him as much as you can. No reason whatsoever to have Daniel jobbing to Bray.


Other than though, I agree with everything you said.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Heyman I completely agree with this 1000% percent. The only thing I would have done differently, would be in having Daniel Bryan winning cleanly over Wyatt, and then having Bryan get screwed in the actual Royal Rumble (Bryan enters). The WWE were lucky that Bryan was 'over' to such a large extent, that losing cleanly to Bray didn't hurt him, but I'm a fan of that type of booking. When you've got a hot star like that, you protect him as much as you can. No reason whatsoever to have Daniel jobbing to Bray. Other than though, I agree with everything you said.

At the time I remember thinking that I thought they were setting up Wyatt to face Bryan down the line. He could use the whole I beat you before, now I'll do it for the Rumble. Would have been an effective angle for Bryan because he was always positioned as the underdog. Now here's a guy who Bryan actually lost to, and he has to find a way to beat him to hang on to the belt. Of course he would then beat Wyatt.

The thing I would have changed is actually have Bryan win at the Feb PPV to earn the shot, but I think they liked the concept of the fans forcing The Authority's hand. Which played in the idea of the "YES Movement"

[Heyman]

Wow,


Looks like I'm the only one that thinks The CyNick is destroying everyone in this thread.


Sorry guys - I love you all, but CyNick's arguments are far and away more sensical than everyone trying to debate him here........and I mean that in the nicest way possible.


The boards are lucky that CyNick is even posting here (after a 10+ year absence).


His opinions are always welcome in my books (atleast the odd time that I graze the forums).




p.s.____________CyNick's no troll by the way. His thoughts, posts, and analysis' are quite deep. If you guys actually paid attention to him instead of admonishing him, you might actually learn something. Ask guys like Loose Cannon and Rob Harvey if they think CyNick doesn't know what he's talking about. Holy fuck.

[#1-norm-fan]

Damian, wasn't it you that posted the video of Bryan explaining what the plan for WrestleMania was for him? Seriously, you should just post that in response every time. lol The fact that this is still an argument after that video is beyond ridiculous.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan Damian, wasn't it you that posted the video of Bryan explaining what the plan for WrestleMania was for him? Seriously, you should just post that in response every time. lol The fact that this is still an argument after that video is beyond ridiculous.

You really think Bryan is going to giveaway legit company secrets while he's still one of the top guys? If thats what you think, cool.

The myth of the whole "YES Movement" that WWE helped cultivate was based on the premise that all of you seem to have bought into, that he wasn't part of the larger plans long term. Yet, there he was at or near the top of the card. Why? I dunno, for shits and giggles I guess.