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Old 11-23-2015, 06:50 PM   #321
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My apologies for not being hipster enough for you Noid. Nothing funnier than someone getting angry at someone because they don't hate something. I forgot this is the group of fans who get together to talk about how much everything sucks.

Of course there are millions of different ways to do things, but the successful ways stand the test of time. Coke in soft drinks, Nike in shoes, WWE in sports entertainment. The IWC tries to pretend they know how to do sports entertainment better than the guy who had been dominating the industry for 30 years plus.
No, not hipster. It's not one or the other. Who is getting angry at you for not hating something? You don't have to hate the WWE to see merit in other products, fool. You are terrible at constructing arguments.

I was the guy around these parts for YEARS who tried to look at the glass half-full. You get exhausted, man. You get exhausted and you cannot deny that it sucks anymore.

How dare people identify what entertains them and what bores them? How hilarious those fools. Next I bet they'll choose what sort of music to listen to and what sort of movies to watch. HA! We all know there is only one answer.

Of course the IWC doesn't have the full scope of business operations in WWE. No one really claims to have that. But we can certainly express our opinions as fans, and as people who know what we like to see from our forms of entertainment. And you know what? A lot of what I read on the internet would be preferable to what you often get from WWE. Not all of it, but a lot. This idea that there is only one person with the golden goose of ideas when it comes to "sports entertainment" is ridiculous, and even more so when you extent it to professional wrestling.
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:48 PM   #322
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I watch because it's the best game in town.

Sorry, maybe I should watch those shows in gyms with 40 people in the crowd.
What does that have to do with anything? Obviously WWE's presentation is superior, but that's meaningless compared to the core elements like writing, booking, and talent. Three things a small indy company can pull off just as well as WWE with the right people involved.

I suppose you only watch the NFL because they have a dancing CG robot in between plays.
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Old 11-23-2015, 09:50 PM   #323
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TBF, the NFL on FOX dancing Robot is fucking awesome.
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:48 AM   #324
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I can just picture Sheamus on the Raw after Survivor Series standing there with the title, and he will without question say something like "WHO LOOKS STUPID NOW???"
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Old 11-24-2015, 04:46 AM   #325
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TBF, though, he does still look stupid, title or no title.
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Old 11-24-2015, 07:24 AM   #326
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What does TBF mean?
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Old 11-24-2015, 10:40 AM   #327
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To be fair
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Old 11-24-2015, 10:53 AM   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts HD Edition View Post
What does that have to do with anything? Obviously WWE's presentation is superior, but that's meaningless compared to the core elements like writing, booking, and talent. Three things a small indy company can pull off just as well as WWE with the right people involved.

I suppose you only watch the NFL because they have a dancing CG robot in between plays.
Possibly the dumbest thing i've ever read on the Internet.

If other companies were superior in booking and character development to WWE they would be more successful than WWE. the market determines who is the best.
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Old 11-24-2015, 12:13 PM   #329
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It really doesn't anymore. The WWE brand far outweighs anything else that happens and they have been coasting on it for years. The lack of competition simply means that enough effort isn't being put in.

I too watch WWE because it is the best game in town, it is established and it is the big league, but that doesn't automatically mean that it is always entertaining, and right now, it just isn't.

That tournament could not have been any more uneventful and boring and it was on one of their biggest shows of the year.
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Old 11-24-2015, 12:27 PM   #330
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Possibly the dumbest thing i've ever read on the Internet.

If other companies were superior in booking and character development to WWE they would be more successful than WWE. the market determines who is the best.
I think the last two sentences contradict themselves.
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Old 11-24-2015, 01:10 PM   #331
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Quote:
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It really doesn't anymore. The WWE brand far outweighs anything else that happens and they have been coasting on it for years. The lack of competition simply means that enough effort isn't being put in.

I too watch WWE because it is the best game in town, it is established and it is the big league, but that doesn't automatically mean that it is always entertaining, and right now, it just isn't.

That tournament could not have been any more uneventful and boring and it was on one of their biggest shows of the year.
If something else was more entertaining, people would watch. Fact is nothing else is as good as WWE. No doubt it would be difficult for an upstart group to get on WWEs level, but if there was another group that was doing it better, they would eventually overtake WWE.

I never said it's always entertaining. RAW is 3 hours, not every minute is riveting. For me is far more good than bad, hence the reason I watch week in and week out. If I didn't like it and still watched every week, I would be a moron.
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Old 11-24-2015, 01:10 PM   #332
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I think the last two sentences contradict themselves.
Explain
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Old 11-24-2015, 02:37 PM   #333
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The entertainment industry, which WWE regards itself to be in, does not generally equate the most popular to being the "best". For examples of this in real life, feel free to read this Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_DiCaprio

The "best", being a subjective term and "most successful" only correlate in competitive business where the only factor is sales. Is business entertaining? Trends point to no, as shown by this totally relevant graph.



You are arguing that WWE does the best business, which is true, however you are passing this off as proof that WWE is the most entertaining. Numbers are not considered entertainment to most people, with less than 15% of audiences reacting positively to numbers, while in some cases statisticians struggle to figure out of the numbers are being laughed at or laughed with. Is James Cameron's Avatar the most entertaining cinematic release of all time? Is an episode of shoddily acted TV Soap "EastEnders" from 1986 the best thing ever shown on British television? Does having more reputation points than somebody make you an unquestionably better poster? Is the oxygen tastier on the peak of Mount Everest?
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:21 PM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra Mantis View Post
The entertainment industry, which WWE regards itself to be in, does not generally equate the most popular to being the "best". For examples of this in real life, feel free to read this Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_DiCaprio

The "best", being a subjective term and "most successful" only correlate in competitive business where the only factor is sales. Is business entertaining? Trends point to no, as shown by this totally relevant graph.



You are arguing that WWE does the best business, which is true, however you are passing this off as proof that WWE is the most entertaining. Numbers are not considered entertainment to most people, with less than 15% of audiences reacting positively to numbers, while in some cases statisticians struggle to figure out of the numbers are being laughed at or laughed with. Is James Cameron's Avatar the most entertaining cinematic release of all time? Is an episode of shoddily acted TV Soap "EastEnders" from 1986 the best thing ever shown on British television? Does having more reputation points than somebody make you an unquestionably better poster? Is the oxygen tastier on the peak of Mount Everest?
In the case of a movie, I could see your point. However, I don't hold my own opinion above anyone else's. So even though I may not like a particular movie, I feel like if a ton of people went to see it, they must have done something right.

Better comparison would be a popular TV show. I watched The Big Bang Theory for 5 minutes one time and thought it was God awful. So I never watched it again. A lot of people do watch it though, week after week. So it must carry some appeal to the general masses. In that case, I kinda toss out my own opinion as irrelevant if so many people like the show.

With sports entertainment, I just don't see how the argument can be made that any other group is close. Sure, some other groups might do some interesting things, but if they were so great, other people would notice, and keep watching. Lots of companies have had the same opportunity WWE did, but they all were less successful. The collective masses must see those products as inferior, otherwise you would see growth, but you don't.
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:23 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Possibly the dumbest thing i've ever read on the Internet.

If other companies were superior in booking and character development to WWE they would be more successful than WWE. the market determines who is the best.
You're right . I don't know what I was thinking.

Well, see you later guys. I'm off to McDonalds to get the best burger in the world.
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:31 PM   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts HD Edition View Post
You're right . I don't know what I was thinking.

Well, see you later guys. I'm off to McDonalds to get the best burger in the world.
Bang for your buck, society says it is
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:34 PM   #337
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Wow
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:36 PM   #338
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:41 PM   #339
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So which organization is currently the best at sports entertainment?
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:41 PM   #340
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In the case of a movie, I could see your point. However, I don't hold my own opinion above anyone else's. So even though I may not like a particular movie, I feel like if a ton of people went to see it, they must have done something right.

Better comparison would be a popular TV show. I watched The Big Bang Theory for 5 minutes one time and thought it was God awful. So I never watched it again. A lot of people do watch it though, week after week. So it must carry some appeal to the general masses. In that case, I kinda toss out my own opinion as irrelevant if so many people like the show.

With sports entertainment, I just don't see how the argument can be made that any other group is close. Sure, some other groups might do some interesting things, but if they were so great, other people would notice, and keep watching. Lots of companies have had the same opportunity WWE did, but they all were less successful. The collective masses must see those products as inferior, otherwise you would see growth, but you don't.
WWE is a multi-million dollar publically traded company with decades of brand recognition and it's only big competition throughout the years shot itself in the head. They are the field leader by default and wrestling is not hot enough for anyone with any sense, either as a promoter or TV executive, to put any serious money into building a competitor. At this point it's like expecting a new brand of cola to come out and challenge the supremacy of Coca Cola and Pepsi, no matter how good it might taste, it's not going to sway a vast majority of those people who have been drinking Coke and Pepsi their entire lives.

Nobody is denying WWE is the business leader, but does that automatically make them the "best"? You even said yourself you don't watch anything else in the genre so how is it possible for you to even form that opinion? WWE is the "best" wrestling you know because WWE is the only wrestling you know and you seem unwilling to even give anything else a shot.
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:50 PM   #341
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WWE is a multi-million dollar publically traded company with decades of brand recognition and it's only big competition throughout the years shot itself in the head. They are the field leader by default and wrestling is not hot enough for anyone with any sense, either as a promoter or TV executive, to put any serious money into building a competitor. At this point it's like expecting a new brand of cola to come out and challenge the supremacy of Coca Cola and Pepsi, no matter how good it might taste, it's not going to sway a vast majority of those people who have been drinking Coke and Pepsi their entire lives.

Nobody is denying WWE is the business leader, but does that automatically make them the "best"? You even said yourself you don't watch anything else in the genre so how is it possible for you to even form that opinion? WWE is the "best" wrestling you know because WWE is the only wrestling you know and you seem unwilling to even give anything else a shot.
The drink thing is totally inaccurate. New players in industries show up all the time. The failures fail, and the good ones succeed and survive. Monster energy drinks come to mind as a brand that came into a crowded space and made noise.

I have watched other groups in the past. I watched WCW and always feltv they were inferior to WWE, even in the heyday of the NWO. i tried TNA, but they were low rent. ROH is a clusterf. Japanese wrestling is impossible to watch.

But how far do I take it? Should I watch some kid's backyard fed because it 'might' be good? My feeling is talent rises to the top. If these groups were worth investing time in, they would gain popularity, and get on my radar. But none ever have.

I don't begrudge someone for enjoying those products, I just don't want to be one of those people sitting around watching something and saying I hate this week after week.
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:58 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
If something else was more entertaining, people would watch. Fact is nothing else is as good as WWE. No doubt it would be difficult for an upstart group to get on WWEs level, but if there was another group that was doing it better, they would eventually overtake WWE.

I never said it's always entertaining. RAW is 3 hours, not every minute is riveting. For me is far more good than bad, hence the reason I watch week in and week out. If I didn't like it and still watched every week, I would be a moron.
I actually get where you are coming from and find your point of view really interesting, but I think the only thing you don't get is that people watch because they WANT it to be better.

It is possible to love wrestling and love WWE and not like the current product. It is like a sports team, I don't stop supporting them because they are sucking.

It's not the exact same thing, but there is a parallel there. I don't want to watch 30 guys huddled round in a gym either, so I want to watch the big company, the one with all the know how, production, its own network etc... the one which has been so good in the past. I want them to be better, so I can enjoy it again like I have done in the past for so many years.
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Old 11-24-2015, 04:12 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I have watched other groups in the past. I watched WCW and always feltv they were inferior to WWE, even in the heyday of the NWO. i tried TNA, but they were low rent. ROH is a clusterf. Japanese wrestling is impossible to watch.
Please explain what makes ROH a clusterfuck because I don't see it. ROH spaces out their talent and never over expoeses anyone. They are booked great and have a great roster. As for Japan, NJPW is white hot right now and is very entertaining, what's impossible to watch about it? Lucha Underground is great as well you should check out their 2nd season.
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Old 11-24-2015, 04:22 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
The drink thing is totally inaccurate. New players in industries show up all the time. The failures fail, and the good ones succeed and survive. Monster energy drinks come to mind as a brand that came into a crowded space and made noise.

I have watched other groups in the past. I watched WCW and always feltv they were inferior to WWE, even in the heyday of the NWO. i tried TNA, but they were low rent. ROH is a clusterf. Japanese wrestling is impossible to watch.

But how far do I take it? Should I watch some kid's backyard fed because it 'might' be good? My feeling is talent rises to the top. If these groups were worth investing time in, they would gain popularity, and get on my radar. But none ever have.

I don't begrudge someone for enjoying those products, I just don't want to be one of those people sitting around watching something and saying I hate this week after week.
Monster Energy drink is not cola. If you want to cast the net so wide on that example, do you feel that WWE the best general entertainment show? Because there are new shows of all different genres cropping up and surpassing WWE in terms of success and entertainment value.

Those exact reasons you cite for sticking with WWE are true for those exact same people who complain that the product sucks, they've tried looking elsewhere for their wrestling fix and in their eyes nothing is up to scratch. WWE is the brand they used to like, so they hold on to the hope that this week things will be better. It's human nature.
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Old 11-25-2015, 10:30 AM   #345
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I watched probably a total of 1 hour of ROH, it was pretty awful. To say he wwe isnt the best is rediculous. Unless Japanese or Mexican wrestling is your thing, you cannot possibly think WWE is not where the best go. Saying some indy fed is the best is like saying some AAA baseball team is the best team in the world.

WWE has a lot of shitty qualities but it is still miles above the rest.
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Old 11-25-2015, 12:04 PM   #346
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WWE just has the stars if you switched the WWE stars with the ROH stars would you still watch WWE or ROH?
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Old 11-25-2015, 01:47 PM   #347
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all the stars are in the E so it's a moot point. The E without the stars is not the E
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Old 11-25-2015, 01:50 PM   #348
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WWE would have the same writers.
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Old 11-25-2015, 06:08 PM   #349
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If you switched out WWE's writing with pretty much any wrestling company's writing, WWE improves dramatically while the other company goes out of business almost immediately.

WWE has been resting on its reputation while slowly dragging wrestling down with it over the past 15 years. It's not like they took WCW's audience and continued to bring wrestling fans in. Less people care about wrestling now. Maybe than ever before. Which makes it nearly impossible for a new company to find success.

Meanwhile WWE has been able to get by appealing to kids who watch for violence, big explosions and bright lights. Who needs coherent writing?
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Old 11-25-2015, 06:31 PM   #350
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Though as the ratings start to reach lolTNA peak levels, one can only hope that they might realize that actually trying from a writing standpoint won't alienate 9 year olds and might even draw in tons of new fans who prefer shit that doesn't come off as phoned in every week.
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Old 11-25-2015, 07:08 PM   #351
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Though as the ratings start to reach lolTNA peak levels, one can only hope that they might realize that actually trying from a writing standpoint won't alienate 9 year olds and might even draw in tons of new fans who prefer shit that doesn't come off as phoned in every week.
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Old 11-27-2015, 06:33 PM   #352
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Ultra Mantis and #1-wwf-fan just killed Great posts there.
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Old 11-27-2015, 06:37 PM   #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Explain
You said that if a company with better booking came along, the WWE would be replaced. Then you stated that the market dictates success. I think Shadrick's point is that there is a dichotomy between your product-based view and your market-based one.

Does a movie studio decide which movies get a wide release and huge promotional campaign, or does the independent film director?
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Old 11-27-2015, 06:40 PM   #354
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Even if the WWE aimed its product at children, it still shows an inability to understand what really appeals to that younger demographic. Vince has also gone on record with statements that prove he doesn't understand the new "millennial" generation. He can't actually grasp that the stereotypes he believes about them are contradicted by actual evidence and such. The WWE is taking aim at groups it doesn't have a handle on.
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Old 11-27-2015, 09:53 PM   #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
You said that if a company with better booking came along, the WWE would be replaced. Then you stated that the market dictates success. I think Shadrick's point is that there is a dichotomy between your product-based view and your market-based one.

Does a movie studio decide which movies get a wide release and huge promotional campaign, or does the independent film director?
If the Independent film director makes an epic film, it will get noticed. The Director will be green lighted to make future films for larger studios. The market will dictate if that Director is really any good.

Take a group like ROH. I believe they have some type of TV clearance. If they were doing really well, a bigger station would pick them up, or the existing network would give them a better TV slot. Eventually they would grow and grow. WCW has been gone since 2001, and in reality no other group has really made any noise. Maybe you could argue TNA to a small degree, but they are hanging on by a thread and if not for a company with deep pockets, they would have been done long ago. Nobody other than Vince can figure out the formula to make this thing work.
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Old 11-27-2015, 09:55 PM   #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Even if the WWE aimed its product at children, it still shows an inability to understand what really appeals to that younger demographic. Vince has also gone on record with statements that prove he doesn't understand the new "millennial" generation. He can't actually grasp that the stereotypes he believes about them are contradicted by actual evidence and such. The WWE is taking aim at groups it doesn't have a handle on.
Youre mixing things up. He doesnt understand the millenial's lack of drive

He understands how to market and appeal to them as evidence by having a top 5 VOD product. Thats where the young people are. He gets that.
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Old 11-27-2015, 10:15 PM   #357
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Old 11-27-2015, 10:16 PM   #358
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Old 11-27-2015, 10:28 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
I watched probably a total of 1 hour of ROH, it was pretty awful. To say wwe isnt the best is rediculous. Unless Japanese or Mexican wrestling is your thing, you cannot possibly think WWE is not where the best go. Saying some indy fed is the best is like saying some AAA baseball team is the best team in the world.

WWE has a lot of shitty qualities but it is still miles above the rest.
What was awful about it? I watch ROH every week and its my favorite wrestling show. They are booked great in my opinion and have an amazing roster. Its not presented in front of 15,000 fans but its still a grest hour of wrestling. Im not calling ROH the best but I do find their hour show more entertaining than WWEs current product. But I watch as many promotions as I can and enjoy most of them.
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Old 11-27-2015, 10:30 PM   #360
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I catch some ROH here and there. I hate myself for saying this, but I actually find a bunch of the work to kind of be sloppy. Like it just doesn't flow. But maybe that's just cuz it's more about the moves than telling a fluid story. Mind you I've only seen a small sample size.
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