The "Growth" of Nexus

[SaskatchewanChamp]

I absolutely hate the way the WWE is building their heels, and this includes Nexus. They have been with us now for a number of months and I have not seen them win clean. I understand you cannot make your faces look weak in anyway, however, if you want a group too have credibility, you need them too win clean. This may just be my opinion, and no one may agree with it, however, if Nexus would win clean a couple times, it would make them look that much stronger, and much more of a threat.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

You don't boo someone because he's a threat. You boo him because he's an asshole.
You don't tune in because you're afraid of a threat. You tune in because you want to see someone you hate get his ass kicked.

[TheHart]

Tell that the to winning streak of the nWo when it first came on the scene. Those guys became invincible and stayed that way for several months. If anyone got in their way, they simply bought them off or took them out. It wasn't until Sting came back that they finally started to lose. It added a ton of heat and legitimacy to the group. Which is what SC is saying about with Nexus and I agree. If they had gone longer than 2 weeks without getting touched, they would be a much more serious threat right now.

[SaskatchewanChamp]

Originally Posted by Supreme Olajuwon You don't boo someone because he's a threat. You boo him because he's an asshole. You don't tune in because you're afraid of a threat. You tune in because you want to see someone you hate get his ass kicked.

No, but nice try. I tune in too watch character development and story development. I don't tune into WWE too watch someone get their "ass kicked" because they aren't really getting their ass kicked, it's fake.

[BollywoodSingh]

Originally Posted by Supreme Olajuwon You don't boo someone because he's a threat. You boo him because he's an asshole. You don't tune in because you're afraid of a threat. You tune in because you want to see someone you hate get his ass kicked.

But the whole point of The Nexus is that they are supposed to be a threat to WWE, not just a group of asshole heels.

[Executioner]

Originally Posted by SaskatchewanChamp No, but nice try. I tune in too watch character development and story development. I don't tune into WWE too watch someone get their "ass kicked" because they aren't really getting their ass kicked, it's fake.

IT'S STILL REAL TO ME DAMNIT!!!!!

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Originally Posted by SaskatchewanChamp No, but nice try. I tune in too watch character development and story development. I don't tune into WWE too watch someone get their "ass kicked" because they aren't really getting their ass kicked, it's fake.

LOL that's because you think you're somehow better than the average fan. That you're "above" them because you "get" the behind the scenes part of the product. And since you're convinced that you "get it," you think you know what's best and you think that what you want to happen is the only possible option. You've even convinced yourself that the reason you watch wrestling is somehow more refined and sophisticated because you care about the subtle nuances of character growth and not just about pretend violence of a fake sport.

You are the definition of a smark.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

It's very irritating that so many armchair bookers refuse to look at storylines outside of how they specifically wanted it. If things don't go their way then the whole thing is garbage.

Does Wade Barrett not have complete control over the biggest name in the industry? (I know it's fake, it's part of the story) Has Barrett not manipulated and cheated his way to put him in a spot where he's pretty much guaranteed to be the champ? Does that not make him and the Nexus a threat? Of course it fucking does, so shut the fuck up and just watch it.

[TheHart]

If their goal was to make Nexus a launch pad for Barrett, then good job WWE. Well done! However, if they were attempting to make a new stable full of up and coming guys who could potentially stand toe-to-toe with the big boys and look convincing...then they failed horribly. Most of those guys come off as nothing more than a shadow lately. The tag team championship may fix some of that. Here's hoping.

Is Barrett a threat? Definitely! Nexus? Not even close.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I personally don't have too much problem with a way the Nexus has been booked. To be honest, I don't know why Darren Young was outed from the group, but whatever. Some small hiccups here and there, but otherwise good stuff.

* David Otunga is a former WWE Tag Team Champion. He's no longer a championship virgin. Quite a few guys getting pushes are. Otunga's not really ready to be made to look dominant on his own, anyway.

* Justin Gabriel has gotten at least two pinfalls over John Cena. He's hit his finishing move on Vince McMahon and The Undertaker. He's gotten a technical victory over Randy Orton. It was a "fluke" victory, but it wasn't really "dirty." Orton got counted out due to his own personal issues with Sheamus. Gabriel has also managed to hang in the ring with whoever he has been put against -- he's been in no way made to look like a joke. Also, he's a current champion.

* Heath Slater is also a current champion. When you really analyse his win-loss record, the guy does so well. He's scored numerous falls against Chris Jericho and Edge, and none of them were "dirty." He out-smarted Edge, which is actually probably the most beneficial way to beat him -- Edge's character is that he is a cunning bastard. Slater also holds a fall over Bret Hart.

* Wade Barrett has beaten Chris Jericho cleanly, he was the NXT season one winner, the mastermind behind this entire Nexus thing (it's a good thing they haven't had Barrett bowing to a higher power, in my opinion), and he managed to beat John Cena and now has him under his personal control. With the way this storyline is going, Wade Barrett would pretty much have to test positive for some sort of illegal substance to not win the WWE Title at Survivor Series.

It remains to be seen how Michael McGillicutty and Husky Harris do, but they are a big part of Wade Barrett's recent success, and I have a feeling that both will be made to look like guys who can hang with the elite in the WWE. Harris is also very young, and McGillicutty's ring skills are probably the best in the Nexus. I think they'll be fine.

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by Supreme Olajuwon Of course it fucking does, so shut the fuck up and just watch it.

Just looking for an excuse for this:

BaddudesSTFU.png

Methinks you gave it to me! ^_^



On topic: Inclined to agree that Nexus, as a whole, look like a bunch of chumps. Wade's push seems to be at the expense of the group... which, if that's the case, why even have a group? He won NXT, won a competition where he supposedly got his own theme music which never appeared, and he earned a legit title shot as the winner of NXT which he technically never used (if you remember, he got help from the anonymous GM for his first title shot, it wasn't the one he earned).

Why call up a bunch of guys who are essentially just around to make Barrett look good by jobbing, getting counted out, and dishing out group beatdowns when you could just put them in generic "security" shirts with the same effect? Yeah, the group looked dominant tearing shit up and gang raping guys with everyone's finishers, but aside from Gabriel, who has had credible wins? They look more like expendable lackeys than a stable, especially with the turnover rate.

[Stealth-Icon]

I just feel like Nexus is the Menudo of wrestling. They will just keep adding a couple of people off of each new season of NXT.

[Tom Guycott]

... also, don't include Barrett in my question as the sum of the group is supposed to be compared against him, but DO include the exiled members Young, Tarver, and Skippy.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Skip looked like a beast when he was in the group. He got decisive falls over John Morrison and R-Truth. Michael Tarver was less credible, but he got a win over Daniel Bryan and wins with the group. Tarver was another guy that was arguably too green for the big stage, anyway.

Slater has also gotten some pretty big victories. People overlook him because of his goofy look and goofy voice. But I'm fairly certain someone in the WWE has a hard-on for him.

[Fignuts]

Originally Posted by TheHart Tell that the to winning streak of the nWo when it first came on the scene. Those guys became invincible and stayed that way for several months. If anyone got in their way, they simply bought them off or took them out. It wasn't until Sting came back that they finally started to lose. It added a ton of heat and legitimacy to the group. Which is what SC is saying about with Nexus and I agree. If they had gone longer than 2 weeks without getting touched, they would be a much more serious threat right now.

The NWO was a group of establish stars. Mostly guys who had been main eventers for a while. Nexus is a handful of rookies. Would not make any sense for them to come on the scene and dominate. The whole point of nexus is that their numbers and cheap tactics make up for their inexperience.

[LoDownM]

Originally Posted by Tom Guycott ... also, don't include Barrett in my question as the sum of the group is supposed to be compared against him, but DO include the exiled members Young, Tarver, and Skippy.

I thought Sheffield just got injured and wasn't kicked out?

[Jeritron]

I agree with Fignuts. Though it was important to establish them as dominant at the beginning. I think perhaps they could have kept untouched a bit longer, but in the long run it has worked out just fine. They are rookies with strength in numbers, and that's why they're doing it.

The only one that it's really important to establish as powerful on his own is Barrett, and they've done a pretty good job of that.

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by LoDownM I thought Sheffield just got injured and wasn't kicked out?

Does it matter? "Outta sight, outta mind." Barrett kinda swept him under the rug with the "trim the fat" promo.

Hell, I wouldn't be suprised if they turned him face on his return, since injuries are pretty much precursors to face pushes. Yes, I know it wouldn't make much sense in the scheme of the Nexus angle, but i'm just saying, I wouldn't die of shock if it happened. Think about how many times in the history of WWF/E that just about anyone coming off of an injury comes back as a face.

[Next Big Thing]

Originally Posted by Supreme Olajuwon You don't boo someone because he's a threat. You boo him because he's an asshole. You don't tune in because you're afraid of a threat. You tune in because you want to see someone you hate get his ass kicked.

You're the man Supreme (except for when you want to bring back the Nation) but I kind of have to disagree with you a little. For the most part, yes, we do want to boo the assholes and great heels have been made out of that gimmick.

But, at times this can get stale and only take a guy so far. That's the problem we're seeing in the current incarnation of the WWE, especially during the most recent title reigns of Cena and Orton. Sheamus wasn't an asshole, he was a threat. He put HHH out. He put Cena through a table to win the belt. Then during the feud with Orton, he becomes this cowardly asshole character and immediately both he and Orton seemed to take a step back.

The same thing with Cena. At the end of the day, there is no reason why fans shouldn't cheer for the guy. But if the babyface is always winning no matter what he goes through, it gets stale and the fans revolt. Batista wasn't just an asshole, he was a credible threat.

Historically, HHH, Austin, the Nation (), Brock, Angle, Jake the Snake, Taker, etc... as heels weren't just assholes, they were credible threats to their opponent. The good guy should always win out in the end, but he has to go through some adversity first and WWE isn't doing a good job of doing that.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Here's the thing though. A threat basically means a guy is a good wrestler that has a high probability of winning his match right? Why would you boo that? What is it about being a good wrestler that makes it bad? Wasn't the Ultimate Warrior a threat to Hulk Hogan? Wasn't Shawn Michaels a threat to the Undertaker? Of course they were, but they got cheered all the way through.

Just being a threat doesn't make someone a good heel. There has to be more. HHH was a great heel because he had the ability to make his own rules and cheat to the top, not because he might win clean. Sheamus took Triple H out by jumping him backstage, not by winning clean. I think the problem here is you guys are confusing the words "credible" and "respectable." Winning clean makes a guy respectable. Winning by any means necessary makes him credible. And we don't need respectable heels. That in itself is an oxymoron.

And I don't know how you can say that WWE isn't making their faces go through some adversity when the company's top star is currently a slave.

[Next Big Thing]

You're right. But you have to acknowledge that the Cena slave angle is very recent compared to the past few months (years maybe?) when he was invincible and the buildup to Randy Orton winning the title when he was ending every match on Raw with an RKO and a head bob. That period of time got stale quick. You make a good point though, these new developments in the storyline are compelling.

[Fox]

Originally Posted by Supreme Olajuwon Here's the thing though. A threat basically means a guy is a good wrestler that has a high probability of winning his match right? Why would you boo that? What is it about being a good wrestler that makes it bad? Wasn't the Ultimate Warrior a threat to Hulk Hogan? Wasn't Shawn Michaels a threat to the Undertaker? Of course they were, but they got cheered all the way through. Just being a threat doesn't make someone a good heel. There has to be more. HHH was a great heel because he had the ability to make his own rules and cheat to the top, not because he might win clean. Sheamus took Triple H out by jumping him backstage, not by winning clean. I think the problem here is you guys are confusing the words "credible" and "respectable." Winning clean makes a guy respectable. Winning by any means necessary makes him credible. And we don't need respectable heels. That in itself is an oxymoron. And I don't know how you can say that WWE isn't making their faces go through some adversity when the company's top star is currently a slave.

You're right in saying that just being a threat doesn't make someone a good heel; it takes various qualities, many of which make the person out to look like a cheater or an asshole or a manipulator - but making them out to look like a threat doesn't hurt either. There are lots of examples through wrestling's history that show that if you make the bad guy look like he's not only a devious asshole, but also a true THREAT to the number one good guy, then he'll get that much more over with the fans.

The nWo are a perfect example: they came in and conquered the entire company, and they beat guys clean because the group was made up of "good wrestlers" who were also assholes.

But there is no better example than BROCK LESNAR:

Here's a guy who came in and squashed everyone, and most of them he squashed clean, and it made him look like he could brutalize people. They built him up huge with big wins over mid-carders and upper mid-carders like RVD, gave him KOTR, and then put him over The Rock for the Undisputed Title at Summerslam, CLEAN. And Brock became the biggest thing in wrestling in a long time.

But I didn't "respect him", as you suggest winning cleans makes a wrestler "respectable", (which is bullshit). He was still an asshole. He still beat people up and bullied everyone around. He still worked with the biggest "agent douche" in the company, Paul Heyman. He was still a heel, he won most of his matches clean, and he was the biggest thing in the WWE, bar none.

It's very irritating that so many armchair bookers refuse to look at storylines outside of how they specifically wanted it. If things don't go their way then the whole thing is garbage. Does Wade Barrett not have complete control over the biggest name in the industry? (I know it's fake, it's part of the story) Has Barrett not manipulated and cheated his way to put him in a spot where he's pretty much guaranteed to be the champ? Does that not make him and the Nexus a threat? Of course it fucking does, so shut the fuck up and just watch it.

You're so condescending here it's almost irritating. Even more irritating is your ignorance to the idea that if Nexus had more clean wins on TV; if they had a "legitimately stronger" team, one that could manage to take out John Cena in a 2-on-1 situation after Cena had been DDT'd onto concrete, then the group as a whole, and perhaps the storyline as a whole, would be that much stronger and more interesting.

Superman was boring until they brought along Doomsday and proved someone could kill him. This Cena enslavement angle is very, very good and is the best they've come to bringing John down to someone else's level. Barrett is getting a huge rub from it and I know he'll be a World champion some day, possibly soon. But I'm not ignorant to the fact that it could be BETTER, than Nexus could be STRONGER, and that more clean-cut victories for all of the members would only help to make them that way.

Of course it fucking does, so shut the fuck up and just watch it.

What a mindless attitude to go about with.

[RatedGSuperstar]

When's the last time a current Nexus member got pinned cleanly for a loss? The ones that have lost clean have been kicked out. That does more to make them look strong than trying to count up all the clean wins, IMO.

[Savio]

David Otunga got pinned cleanly on raw

The sheer numbers of Nexus makes them a threat. It's an advantage that they have that the faces don't. You're always wrestling in a handicap match.
How many "clean wins" did Ric Flair have? You had a heel pin move (Flair pin) named after him, and if he wasn't using the t rope to win cheap, you had the Horsemen interfering.

[Hanso Amore]

LOL @ Supreme Just owning. I co sign his posts, dead on accurate.

[SaskatchewanChamp]

Originally Posted by Supreme Olajuwon so shut the fuck up and just watch it.

[Hanso Amore]

Does anyone remember the Dirtiest Player in the game?

Seriously, parse through Flair matches from 82-92, and very rarely did he win clean.

[Hanso Amore]

Gertner beat me to it.

[Savio]

Flair also rarely won clean

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Originally Posted by Fox You're right in saying that just being a threat doesn't make someone a good heel; it takes various qualities, many of which make the person out to look like a cheater or an asshole or a manipulator - but making them out to look like a threat doesn't hurt either. There are lots of examples through wrestling's history that show that if you make the bad guy look like he's not only a devious asshole, but also a true THREAT to the number one good guy, then he'll get that much more over with the fans.

But what makes a guy a threat? All you need to have for a legitimate threat is the idea that the heel has something that he can use to his advantage. Maybe it's his dominance, maybe it's his willingness to cheat. They both work equally well. The topic of this thread is that Nexus aren't credible because they don't have clean wins. That's just simply not true.

The nWo are a perfect example: they came in and conquered the entire company, and they beat guys clean because the group was made up of "good wrestlers" who were also assholes.

Who did they beat clean? Jobbers? Midcarders? That makes them legit to you? Whenever they faced a big name they cheated CONSTANTLY (which Nexus does). They jumped people in the back (which Nexus does). They turned the entire locker room against them (Nexus did this too).

If the nWo was such a dominant force, why did Hogan cower from his opponents in every single match? Why did he run from Sting, Warrior, Piper, Goldberg every time they showed up?

But there is no better example than BROCK LESNAR: Here's a guy who came in and squashed everyone, and most of them he squashed clean, and it made him look like he could brutalize people. They built him up huge with big wins over mid-carders and upper mid-carders like RVD, gave him KOTR, and then put him over The Rock for the Undisputed Title at Summerslam, CLEAN. And Brock became the biggest thing in wrestling in a long time. But I didn't "respect him", as you suggest winning cleans makes a wrestler "respectable", (which is bullshit). He was still an asshole. He still beat people up and bullied everyone around. He still worked with the biggest "agent douche" in the company, Paul Heyman. He was still a heel, he won most of his matches clean, and he was the biggest thing in the WWE, bar none.

Brock Lesnar is a once in a generation talent. Brock Lesnar was legit from the moment he was born. You don't just create a Brock Lesnar.

So that's one example of a guy who didn't need to cheat to be a great heel. Let's throw in the Undertaker, Kane, Vader, and Yokozuna too. Do we notice the similarities here? They're HUGE. None of these guys needed to be built as a credible threat. The audience knew they were a legit threat the moment they stepped into the arena.

Now let's look at another list:
Ric Flair
Chris Jericho
Eddie Guerrero
Ted Dibiase
Edge
Shawn Michaels
The Rock
Triple H
Mr. Perfect

Are these guys all great heels? Absolutely. How many of them were dominant heels who scored a ton of clean victories? NONE. Are you going to tell me that they would've been better heels if they would've won more matches cleanly? If you are, you're insane.

You're so condescending here it's almost irritating. Even more irritating is your ignorance to the idea that if Nexus had more clean wins on TV; if they had a "legitimately stronger" team, one that could manage to take out John Cena in a 2-on-1 situation after Cena had been DDT'd onto concrete, then the group as a whole, and perhaps the storyline as a whole, would be that much stronger and more interesting.

And you're completely ignorant of the fact that because Cena won at Summerslam, it was that much more shocking when Barrett beat Cena and made him join Nexus.

The single greatest heat generator in wrestling history is when a face is clearly superior to a heel in the ring and would crush the heel in a fair fight, but the heel refuses to fight fair. And that's exactly what happened with the Nexus. We know Cena is better than every member of Nexus. He's the biggest name in the business and these Nexus guys just came from a rookie audition show. We know Cena is better. But it doesn't matter because Nexus is willing to do anything to win. And that makes them a threat. And that's why the audience was dead silent in shock after Barrett beat Cena.

Superman was boring until they brought along Doomsday and proved someone could kill him. This Cena enslavement angle is very, very good and is the best they've come to bringing John down to someone else's level. Barrett is getting a huge rub from it and I know he'll be a World champion some day, possibly soon. But I'm not ignorant to the fact that it could be BETTER, than Nexus could be STRONGER, and that more clean-cut victories for all of the members would only help to make them that way.

Why would they put Cena down on other people's level? He's the biggest star in wrestling.

And of course it COULD be better. Everything could be better. But you guys seem to be operating under the assumption that stronger necessarily leads to better. You don't know that. You don't know where they're going with this.

What a mindless attitude to go about with.

No. It's looking at the bigger picture. How can you say a story is missing something when the story is still happening? You wouldn't write a movie review halfway through the movie. How do you know that the stuff you want to happen won't happen next week? You don't. So just enjoy what you're watching. This angle is good. All you're doing by complaining about it is missing out on other good stuff.

[Innovator]

A regular heel and a monster heel are completely different. You can't use Brock as an example. Monsters win clean BECAUSE THEY ARE MONSTERS, they should destroy most people.

[VSG]

Supreme's in the mood. That's the longest post I saw him type ever since I was here.

[SaskatchewanChamp]

This was a subject very near and dear too his heart.

[KIRA]

Why would they put Cena down on other people's level? He's the biggest star in wrestling.

The same reason Superman got his ass handed to him by doomsday it makes them relatable,mortal and sympathetic, Humans like humanity that's why Batman and his rogues gallery are way more interesting and arguably more popular than Superman.

[The Naitch]

Originally Posted by SaskatchewanChamp I absolutely hate the way the WWE is building their heels, and this includes Nexus. They have been with us now for a number of months and I have not seen them win clean. I understand you cannot make your faces look weak in anyway, however, if you want a group too have credibility, you need them too win clean. This may just be my opinion, and no one may agree with it, however, if Nexus would win clean a couple times, it would make them look that much stronger, and much more of a threat.

theypre probably aware of this, but don't bother doing anything about it. Lazy booking

[TheHart]

Originally Posted by Supreme Olajuwon Now let's look at another list: Ric Flair Chris Jericho Eddie Guerrero Ted Dibiase Edge Shawn Michaels The Rock Triple H Mr. Perfect Are these guys all great heels? Absolutely. How many of them were dominant heels who scored a ton of clean victories? NONE. Are you going to tell me that they would've been better heels if they would've won more matches cleanly? If you are, you're insane.

So wait, you're saying that Triple H, during his nearly 3 year domination of Raw where he held the title 5 times, for a total of 616 days, wasn't booked as a monster heel? When HHH came back from injury in 2002, he was unstoppable. It wasn't until the program with Orton that he started to show signs of a chicken heel. That was 2 years after his return.

The rest of those guys I agree with, but Triple H, in my opinion is exactly how you build up the perfect heel. He was simply invincible from 2002-2005.

He probably didn't win cleanly every match, but he destroyed everyone that came into his path. That's the important part. The Nexus doesn't have to win cleanly. They need to destroy everyone they go up against using the numbers game and whatever it takes to pull a win. Don't have Cena be the first opponent, he's Superman. You start with midcarders and work up to the Cenas and the Ortons.

Just my two cents.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Triple H is the most successful heel character of all time, but that doesn't mean he was a monster. He cheated constantly. He ducked the Rock and Mick Foley at nearly every opportunity until he was forced to face them. When he was in trouble, he ran or he found some underhanded way to get out of it.

He also cut scary promos and came off like a huge badass, so he seemed like a monster. He's closer to a monster heel than anyone else on that list, but he still had all the characteristics of a classic heel.


And to say that that's the perfect way to build a heel, well yeah duh of course it is. But you can't book every heel to take absolute control of the company and be the most successful heel wrestler of all time. It just doesn't work like that.

[TheHart]

Touché

But can we not get a LITTLE closer to Triple H heel levels with the Nexus? Is that just not possible? Come on WWE!

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Of course it's possible. And there's no indication that it can't happen. These guys just got into WWE from a rookie audition show. Let's give it some time.

If TPWW was around when Triple H started in the WWF, we'd have written him off the second the Ultimate Warrior no-sold the pedigree.