DISCUSSION - Is Randy Orton the most important wrestler in the WWE right now?

[Heyman]

Please note: The following is a response I had in the "Forum Battle" thread. I am posting this on here to see what you guys think.

DISCUSSION - Is Randy Orton the most important wrestler in the WWE right now?


I would argue that guys like Randy Orton, John Cena, Mordecai, and Kenzo Suzuki are the WWE's 'most important guys' right now (and out of those 4 guys, <Randy Orton is the most important). Are any of these guys World Champions yet? No. Could all 4 of these guys potentially help draw big numbers in the future? Yes.

Right now - the WWE are still far away from their peak in terms of ratings. If the WWE want to get back to where they were in 2000, a lot of it will be dependent on how they push their "new" talent (and how much they can make an impact with the fans).

As great as Eddie Guerrero is right now, he is not bringing in the numbers as far as ratings go. Granted - it's not entirely his fault (since other 'marquee' names such as Angle and Lesnar are not wrestling, combined with the fact that Smackdown is being treated like a 'B' show relative to Raw), but he's basically a CHAMPION at a time when wrestling interest isn't all that high.

In the future (when business starts going up again), Eddie should be used to 'put over' a SENSATIONAL up-and-comer. In a sense, this would be the equivalent of Bret Hart (one of the 'main' guys in the WWE at a time when business was down) putting over Stone Cold STeve Austin (a guy who was obviously becoming a mega-star).


Getting back to Randy Orton, I think he could definitely be the next Triple H in terms of success as a heel. The fans are obviously "intrigued" with Orton's character right now. His recent feud with Mick Foley was one of the most hyped feuds on Raw.

With Orton's "legend killer" gimmick, he can easily notch a few more SIGNIFICANT victories to add to his (already impressive) resume. How about an interpromotional match with Undertaker? How over would Orton be if HE (with his 'legend killer' gimmick) was responsible for retiring Undertaker?

What if Randy Orton challenged Steve Austin to a match...........and beat Austin in his 'comeback' match?

There are many other possibilites as well? (i.e. Orton defeating former mentors Ric Flair/Triple H, Orton beating up his own dad Bob Orton, etc.)

As over as Randy Orton is right now, he has potential to be TEN times more over..........due to his 'legend killer' gimmick.......and due to the quality of opponents that the WWE can make him beat with that gimmick.


-A guy like John Cena for instance, may not be as 'over' somewhere down the road. What if his 'rapping' schtick becomes passee?.....and the fans no longer 'pop' as loud for it? (kind of like Rikishi's "dance" routine).

While guys like Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, Edge, and a HOST of others have done impressive things througout their careers, they have also been made to look INFERIOR (in an overall sense) compared to the likes of The Rock, Triple H, and Steve Austin (if this makes sense).

In this day and age, one can argue that the fans want to see a SENSATIONAL character of sorts......one that makes a HUGE impact right away, and is shown to be above the 'common man'. Think about how Lesnar was pushed. Think about Kurt Angle. Think about.......Randy Orton.


In the future - I'd have Orton become the World Champion by Summerslam 2005 (by defeating whoever wins the title at Wrestlemania 21). Whether this man is Triple H or not, I'd have Orton defeat Triple H sometime before (or at?) Summerslam 2005. By this time, I'm also assuming that Orton will have defeated Ric Flair.

Randy Orton then challenges the WWE champion of Smackdown and defeats him (Orton then becomes champ of both shows). Once this happens - Orton can continue defeat other legends such as Undertaker (I'm hoping that Orton becomes responsible for the man who retires him), Steve Austin, etc. Perhaps even guys like Hulk Hogan, Goldberg, and Brock Lesnar can be brought in for one-time appearance deals (to job to Orton).


With Orton as the company's top heel, this allows for the WWE to focus on pushing a top face. At this point, whoever defeats Orton would go over big time.


Like I said earlier - with Orton's 'legend killer' gimmick, he has by far the most potential for the future........the 'future' of which will most likely see the WWE peak again in terms of ratings.

[Mr. JL]

I've watched RAW for the past 4 weeks or so and I have to say that he is the STAR of the show. He is the man to see and he has been the most entertaining. His in-ring work has really improved alot in my opinion. And his feud with Shelton Benjamin looks to be great.

So yes, I would agree that Randy Orton is the most important wrestler in the WWE right now.

[PureHatred]

At some point in time, the fact that Orton's talent doesn't match his push is going to become aparent. He is average in the ring. his actual mic skills are pretty weak, which is why they have to resort to cheap tricks like beating up establihed names and having him use racial slurs on Shelton Benjamin to draw real heat. Hell, in most of his feuds, the really memorable "put-asses-in-seats" interviews are done by Ric Flair or the opponent ( Orton was clearly outshone by both The Rock and Mick Foley. He wasn't even in the same league...and mic work is supposed to be his strong suit).

As far as importance: every fan hates the idea of it, but the fact of the matter is, as far as the WWE is concerned, the most important worker on the roster is Triple H. Every Raw is about him, with or without the belt. Every PPV he's on, he's in the main event slot. He is pushed as the main character in the company. And that's just on-sceen.

The WWE started a movie division; the first movie out will be a Triple H vehicle. He is now involved in the booking meetings, as confirmed in Vince's latest interview. He is showing up at Smackdown tapings in a 'road agent' capacity. With Shane becoming more of the businessman, it becomesmore apparent that Hunter is going to be handling the product (with his wife, Steph) when Vince retires. You simply don't get more important than the main event headline heel who also happens to have family ties and stock in the company.

Whether or not Randy Orton is the face of WWE in the future is debatable, but Triple h is going to be pulling the strings for the foreseeable future.

[Nowhere Man]

Yes, Randy Orton is WWE's new pet project. But, like I said in the earlier thread, there's a huge risk that they'll end up ruining him by pushing him this much so early in his career, rather than push other people who are already ready for the main events while he develops his talent and potential into skill. I like Orton, but I'm just afraid that by the time he does reach the peak of his abilities, he'll be played out and no one will care.

To make an analogy to movies, look at, say Leo DiCaprio. At the height of his popularity, he was made out to be the Second Coming of Christ due to his good looks. Fast-forward to today, DiCaprio's actually a pretty damn good actor, but no one cares because his turn in the spotlight is over. Sure, they made a ton of money off of him by going with a quick and easy super-push, but in exchange DiCaprio became instantly forgettable, now put to pasture by the Ashton Kutchers and Orlando Blooms of today, who will in turn be shoved out of the spotlight when the next batch of pretty-boys come along.

Anyways, back to the point I was trying to make. Whether or not Orton has what it takes isn't really the issue here. WWE may indeed have struck gold with this guy, but I predict they end up doing the exact same thing they did to The Ultimate Warrior, Brock Lesnar, and all the other "Shake 'n' Bake" superstars: push them to the moon, milk them for all they're worth, and drop them the second another prospect comes along. After his mega-push is over, it won't matter how many old people Orton beats up, how many guys they bring out of retirement so he can "retire" them again, or whose iconic finisher they give to him, because no one will care. Mark my words: the Legend Killer is doomed to fail, and it won't be Orton's fault.

[My Final Heaven]

Hello? Loose Cannon? Where are youuuuuu???

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by Mr. JL So yes, I would agree that Randy Orton is the most important wrestler in the WWE right now.

The thing I LOVE most about Randy Orton, is that his 'legend killer' gimmick has so much potential. As over as this guy is right now, he can still be like 10x more over. He already has victories over Mick Foley, Shawn Michaels, and Sgt. Slaughter, but this guy can also score future victories over legends Ric Flair, Triple H, Undertaker (especially if Orton "retired" Undertaker), Steve Austin (Austin's last match ever), and The Rock (one on one). Even guys like Hogan, Goldberg, and Lesnar can be brought in for "one last match". Ditto for Kurt Angle.

Orton LITERALLY could become a "legend killer"......and become absolutely HATED amongst fans (which would then turn to outright LOVE in the distant future).


Bottom line? Orton's gimmick can further grow.


The WWE has also done a great job in making Orton look "special"....which means a LOT in the WWE nowadays......when you consider the fanbase. In this day and age, it can be VERY tough for the fans to get behind a guy who's been in the mid-cards for too long (as we are seeing with Edge now.....and saw with Test and Val Venis not too long ago).

[Nowhere Man]

Originally Posted by PureHatred At some point in time, the fact that Orton's talent doesn't match his push is going to become aparent. He is average in the ring. his actual mic skills are pretty weak, which is why they have to resort to cheap tricks like beating up establihed names and having him use racial slurs on Shelton Benjamin to draw real heat. Hell, in most of his feuds, the really memorable "put-asses-in-seats" interviews are done by Ric Flair or the opponent ( Orton was clearly outshone by both The Rock and Mick Foley. He wasn't even in the same league...and mic work is supposed to be his strong suit). As far as importance: every fan hates the idea of it, but the fact of the matter is, as far as the WWE is concerned, the most important worker on the roster is Triple H. Every Raw is about him, with or without the belt. Every PPV he's on, he's in the main event slot. He is pushed as the main character in the company. And that's just on-sceen. The WWE started a movie division; the first movie out will be a Triple H vehicle. He is now involved in the booking meetings, as confirmed in Vince's latest interview. He is showing up at Smackdown tapings in a 'road agent' capacity. With Shane becoming more of the businessman, it becomesmore apparent that Hunter is going to be handling the product (with his wife, Steph) when Vince retires. You simply don't get more important than the main event headline heel who also happens to have family ties and stock in the company. Whether or not Randy Orton is the face of WWE in the future is debatable, but Triple h is going to be pulling the strings for the foreseeable future.

Have I ever mentioned that you are probably my favorite poster these days?

[Wondermouse]

I love Randy, but he seems to be a bit of a... dividing wrestler. A love him or hate him kinda thing.

I like his in ring work, but his offense needs work. He needs more signature spots and moves. The 3.0's nice, but it's uncrisp. I, for one, love the RKO.

But where he really shines is his mannerisms. Trying to escape the Germans? Awesome. Remember the tag match when he was in against Tajiri? When he got kicked in the back of the head? His eyes rolled into the back if his head and he collapsed. It was freaking gold.

I really can't hate on someone who does the little things so well.

[BLaZeR-]

Christian > Orton

[Savio]

No

[LK]

Originally posted by Wondermouse I love Randy, but he seems to be a bit of a... dividing wrestler. A love him or hate him kinda thing. I like his in ring work, but his offense needs work. He needs more signature spots and moves. The 3.0's nice, but it's uncrisp. I, for one, love the RKO. But where he really shines is his mannerisms. Trying to escape the Germans? Awesome. Remember the tag match when he was in against Tajiri? When he got kicked in the back of the head? His eyes rolled into the back if his head and he collapsed. It was freaking gold. I really can't hate on someone who does the little things so well.

Exactly what I would say for Randy Orton. In my opinion the match on Raw with Shelton was great. I think that in the future Randy could potentially be the main man in the company along with Cena.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by BLaZeR- Christian > Orton

Flair > Hogan

Dean Malenko > Undertaker


Do you see the point I'm trying to make? That 'larger than life' aura is a CRUCIAL element when it comes to the marks getting fully behind a wrestler.

Orton HAS that. Furthermore - Orton can EXPAND on that with his 'legend killer' gimmick (since there are still a lot of legends which Orton can potentially defeat).

Christian has been a mid-card wrestler for a number of years now. With the exception of his tag team success, he has had a fairly average career (in the eyes of most marks).

[The CyNick]

I would say Orton and Cena tie as being most important to the 'future' of the WWE. Eddie might be the most important right now, because he's keeping Smackdown afloat, but he's probably not going to carry the company for the next 5 years. But thats not to say Cena or Orton will either. They are just the best hope for right now. There are few if any potential impact players in OVW right now (maybe Morgan), so when we look at the two rosters, Cena and Orton jum out as the guys who might make an impact in the near future. But I cant put one above the other.

[The Naitch]

I'm still waiting for a Lesnar/Orton feud

[The Naitch]

That face to go over Orton should still be Cena. Just freshen Cena up. Although as a heel, he's much better with the rhymes.

[Mr. JL]

Originally Posted by The Naitch That face to go over Orton should still be Cena. Just freshen Cena up. Although as a heel, he's much better with the rhymes.

If the WWE really wanted Cena to look like a bad ass I'm surprized that they haven't told Cena to cuss out all types of colourful language and then he'd recieve a fine from the FCC or whatever. It would be publicity... maybe not good publicity but the WWE seems to take whatever kind of publicity that they can get nowadays.

[TheNamelessOne]

How many "Randy Orton Is Going To Be The Geatest Wrestler To Ever Walk The Earth"-esque topics do we actually need?

Randy Orton is bland. Simple. Hes a boring and average worker with weak mic skills. A lot of people keep saying that he could be the next when most of the time, he doesn't posess any of the qualities they have. His gimmick is fairly weak, as its just a cheap way of getting someone over. I mean, why take all that time to get someone genuinly over the crowd when you can speed the process by putting them over past stars and then make them boast about it? If it was such a good gimmick then he would be getting huge crowd reactions right now.

This brings me onto my next point - He doesn't back up anything he says. A month ago he told Harley Race that he had accomplished more in 2/3 years than Harley Race had accomplished in his entire career. This was minutes after Jerry Lawler pointed out that Race is a multi time world champion. Orton has held the Intercontinental Championship. The result? Orton doesn't come across as an egotistical heel, he comes across as a freaking moron.

In conclusion - I don't think Orton is valuable to the WWE as every other rookie the WWE brings up from OVW. Hes green, overpushed, and currently possesses none of the qualities a main eventer has. He needs to become more interesting in the ring and work on his mic skills big time. Hes just a simple, generic heel with no redeeming qualities at the moment. And I surely hope that changes, otherwise the WWE really is screwed. John Cena is ten times the performer that Orton is at the moment.

[Nowhere Man]

Originally Posted by Heyman Orton can EXPAND on that with his 'legend killer' gimmick (since there are still a lot of legends which Orton can potentially defeat).

Beating more old people isn't "expanding" the gimmick at all. It's just the same damn thing he's been doing, just with a different retired guy. And that's not the sort of thing you can base a career on. You can't just beat up old people for years on end and expect to stay over with the crowd. After the inevitable win over Flair, there really won't be any more "legends" Orton can squash that will make people want to buy tickets and see it happen. Longtime fans will pop for the guys they grew up watching, but honestly, the casual crowd won't give a shit. It may be a good source of cheap heat now, but it's going to get old, FAST. I predict a gimmick change (or at least a nickname change) by this time next year.

[Batsu]

I would just like to say, if a Lesnar/Orton match actually happened, I'd be going for Orton in that match. Especially if Orton becomes a new-age DDP as he seems to be aspiring to be with random RKOing.

[Nowhere Man]

But he won't. DDP popularized the move, which was an integral part of his success. You can't really popularize something that's already been popularized. So really, the RKO is going to hinder Orton in the long run, because he's making himself a second-rate Page. Ripping off someone else's gimmick has very rarely ever worked, and those who have made it work were way more talented than their predecessors. So far, from what I've seen, Orton can't even touch DDP.

[FourFifty]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man But he won't. DDP popularized the move, which was an integral part of his success. You can't really popularize something that's already been popularized.

It's very rare when I say these two words... You're Wrong. Much respect to you, so please don't misunderstand, but it's very easy to popularize a move that has already been popularized. Beniot and the rock use The Sharp Shooter. RVD, Eddie and Val Venis all use a splash for their finisher much like Superfly. Steve Austin was able to use the Lou Thez Press, and if you don't know where the name came from then stab yourself in the eye. Edge and Rhyno both took a page out of the book of the Goldberg hand book when they use the spear. The Lion Tamer can be traced to the Goldust Trio, while Kurt was able to use Shamrock's ankle lock.

It's all a matter of how it looks.

Beniot, The Rock, Bret Hart and Sting all have their own twist on the Sharp Shooter/Death Lock. From how high they are off the ground, to how they hold the victims feet. It makes that move their own.
Eddie and Val both have their own pose right before their splash, while RVD sells his splash to make it the Five Star.
Lou Thez pinned people with his move, while SCSA punches them.
Edge and Rhyno, while are both more talented than Goldberg, use the move that in the eyes of many people Goldberg made famous. Much like the Sharp Shooter, it's all a matter of how the attacker sells it... I'm just waiting for someone to do a summersault after diving into the “victim’s” rib cage.
I believe if it weren't for Rick Martel, the Lion Tamer wouldn't be here. Just looking at Martel and Jericho... Do I really need to say "it's all a matter of how the attacker does it" again?
I don't recall anyone doing the ankle lock before Shamrock. Seeing him "snap" and twisting someone's ankle in ways it wasn't meant to be twisted was pretty brutal. Here we have "The Most Dangerous Man Alive" grabbing something and twisting it in a way that it should be twisted... then an Olympic gold medal winner doing the same thing... You can't do lot with the ankle lock, but hey, Shamrock isn't in the lime light, so why not use a move that is already over?

DDP isn't in the right now, so we won’t see The Diamond Cutter coming anytime soon.... I'm not saying that gives Randy Orton every right to steal his move, but it's how it's done. While DDP got it over as something you never see coming, Randy seems to put a little more swing into it. That's why I firmly believe that with a little more hype Orton can popularize the RKO, which DDP already got over.

[Nowhere Man]

I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, I highly doubt Orton will re-popularize the Diamond Cutter. Mainly because the RKO looks like crap compared to the Cutter. Page's came out of nowhere, and he had a billion different ways of doing it. Orton's you could see coming a mile away. And there's no real point of having a 'surprise' finisher when there's no surprise to it.

[Wondermouse]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, I highly doubt Orton will re-popularize the Diamond Cutter. Mainly because the RKO looks like crap compared to the Cutter. Page's came out of nowhere, and he had a billion different ways of doing it. Orton's you could see coming a mile away. And there's no real point of having a 'surprise' finisher when there's no surprise to it.

I disagree with you on two counts.

Firstly, for a long time, the Diamond Cutter didn't come out of nowhere. He very often signalled for it, and hit it. Thing is, when he called for it, it almost always looked like shit. That's because DDP executed it standing still, and thus didn't get full extension. When Orton regularly does it, he runs a little, which allows for nice extension, and a beautiful move.

Secondly, he DOES pull it out of nowhere sometimes. I can think of 3 off the top of my head - and I've seen him do it in a match maybe 6 times.

1 vs. Shawn Michaels - He caught the SCM, spun him around, and hit the RKO. HBK kicked out, but that looked pretty sweet.
2 vs. Cactus Jack - He did it while being clawed, or something similar, I don't remember.
3 vs. Val Venis - He faked a knee injury in the match and popped up from the mat to hit a beautiful RKO.

[big_bluto]

The RKO shouldn't be a finishing move, and it certainy shouldn't be a finishing move for Randy Orton.

His whole character, persona, aura is based around someone cocky, arrogant, full of himself and oozing confidence. He's the Legend Killer.

So why has he got a surprise finishing move?
He should have a move which he can start from standing waiting for the opponent to get up. The opponent is already beaten, tired, and they know that they are staring defeat in the face.
They finally stand up, they can see what's coming, Orton delivers the finisher, cocky pin, 1...2...3, Over.

It's like The Rock setting people up for the Rock Bottom, Austin setting people up for The Stunner giving them the middle fingers.
The RKO clashes with the character and type of wrestler that he is.
It makes him look weaker because his finishes always look kind of like he's cheated the other guy out of the match.
There's no opportunity for anybody watching to go, "ORTON'S GOING TO GO FOR THE RKO! GO ON......YES.........*Orton delivers*
Currently it's just like *wrestlers do there thing, beat each other up, RKO, match over, WTF happened?*

That's why Orton needs a better finisher!

1. Orton's skills are not on par with his gimmick.

2. That is slowly changing. He seems to be getting better in the riing all the time.

3. Heyman's got a point about the gimmick's unfulfilled potential.

4. The Diamond Cutter > the RKO (I made a thread about this on the old boards)

5. Would it be so wrong for Randy Orton to use the RKO as a lesser finisher? After all, Ultimo Dragon has the Asai DDT and the Dragon Sleeper, Under taker has the Tombstone and the Last Ride, Kurt Angle has the Angle Slam and the Ankle Lock and Eddie Guerrero has the Frog Splash and the Lasso From El Paso.

[HankScorpio]

Originally Posted by The Naitch That face to go over Orton should still be Cena. Just freshen Cena up. Although as a heel, he's much better with the rhymes.

Did anyone else notice that Cena (I know this is an Orton thread, but, i gotta say this) Didn't Rap/Rhyme on this weeks SmackDown? I thought his segment ripping Booker T was pure gold, ok, it was just cheap comedy, but without any rapping he was still incredibly Charismatic and worked the crowd (and Booker) really well. I guess the point I'm making is that no-one would even notice if Cena stopped rapping and just became a face with a sense of humour and as Angle said "no respect for authority"
so (and I know this won't go down well) Cena could easily be the new Stone Cold


And as for Orton, if they just slow down on pushing him onto us,I think with a couple of extra finishers he could easily work himself over with the crowd to be a major player in WWE

[Wondermouse]

I think the fact that the RKO clashes with his gimmick is the point. He's this cocky motherfucker, but he has to resort to pulling shit out of nowhere and just eeking out a victory to win.

I'd like to see Orton pull out the 3.0 more. That's the move where he hooks his arm around the guy's neck, goes behind him, and executes a backbreaker. It was Mike Sanders' finisher.

I like the Overdrive/O-Zone, that swinging leg neckbreaker of his. It looks pretty nice in real life, I think.

I don't know, I like the RKO as a Orton's finisher. It would seem silly to change it now, after beating Foley with it.

Maybe he could do something where he does "legendary" finishers. Of course, the thing about it is, most legend's finishers suck...

[HankScorpio]

Originally Posted by Wondermouse [color=white]I think the fact that the RKO clashes with his gimmick is the point. He's this cocky motherfucker, but he has to resort to pulling shit out of nowhere and just eeking out a victory to win. color]

If he has the ability to execute it, maybe he could do a picture perfect butterfly suplex with a bridge for a finisher.

[HankScorpio]

Orton could be like Rogue from the X-men, when he beats/retires a "legend" he could steal their finisher!
He'd have quite a repetoir(sp?) already
Also, check out the RKO on foley in the "cynick: join us thread"

[Wondermouse]

Originally Posted by Funky Fly If he has the ability to execute it, maybe he could do a picture perfect butterfly suplex with a bridge for a finisher.

Do you mean a tiger suplex, a tiger driver type move, or a double underhook side suplex?

Originally Posted by Wondermouse Do you mean a tiger suplex, a tiger driver type move, or a double underhook side suplex?

More like a full Nelson/German suplex deal. It takes an incredible amount of technical skill and flexibility to do it perfectly.

[Wondermouse]

Dragon suplex?

Originally Posted by Wondermouse Dragon suplex?

Yup, that's the other name for it.

[Wondermouse]

I know Benoit used that as a sort of finisher in Japan, even though he didn't really have a finisher.

I don't think thatd really fit Orton.

I like the RKO fine.

[V]

Originally Posted by BLaZeR- Christian > Orton

whatever you're smoking, i'd like some

[Nowhere Man]

Originally Posted by Gohan3k whatever you're smoking, i'd like some

I honestly agree with BlaZeR. Christian's got superior ring work, better mic skills, and can work well with just about anyone. Orton's still green as hell, can't cut a promo for shit, and is only able to put on quality matches when there's a superior worker like Benoit or Foley to lead him. Christian's not getting the super-push, but he still gets a lot more heat than Orton usually does, and he can do it without resorting to cheap heat tactics. So, yeah, Christian > Orton.

[CBright7831]

All of these Randy Orton avatars make me want one also.

[BLaZeR-]

Originally Posted by Gohan3k whatever you're smoking, i'd like some

What are you smoking? Christian owns Orton in every aspect besides size, and we know Vince gets wet for bigger guys. While Orton cuts his bland and generic promos and wrestles with average skills, even though he's getting a little better....Christian is far more a better wrestler and has tons of charisma, and if those numbskulls bookers keep pushing him right and don't keep him in the mid-card he could be the next HBK.

[Wondermouse]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man Christian's not getting the super-push, but he still gets a lot more heat than Orton usually does, and he can do it without resorting to cheap heat tactics. So, yeah, Christian > Orton.

Christian's the king of cheap heat.