DISCUSSION - I'm finally seeing some "postives" on Smackdown (Spoilers involved).

[Heyman]

DISCUSSION - I'm finally seeing some "postives" on Smackdown (Spoilers involved).


-I'm glad to see that JBL cleanly defeated Booker T at Armageddon (from what I read, it seemed like it was a clean pin). For right now, I can live with the fact that Taker looked more dominant than JBL. :foc:


-I'm interested to see if Kurt Angle makes the full fledged face turn. I am COMPLETELY behind the idea of Angle turning face. Hopefully - the WWE goes ahead with that. I'm also hoping that Angle does the JOB to JBL (to further cement JBL as a main-event heel).

-I found Luther Reigns comment to be funny (he complained to Angle how Orlando Jordan, under JBL, gets health care. ). In the not-so-distant future, I'd like to see Luther Reigns and Mark Jindrak *BOTH* align with JBL.

-With those two aligned with JBL, we see a real stable.

Layfield & Associates:

-JBL
-that one bitch
-Orlando Jordan
-Bashams
-Luther Reigns
-Mark Jindrak.

In my opinion, it would be reminiscent of the old Corporation (which is a GOOD thing). A stable like this would also help tie the show together, since this stable would consist of upper-card wrestlers, mid-card wrestlers, and tag team wrestlers (and in effect, makes the stable the focal point of the show).


-I still contend that JBL needs to start getting CLEAN victories. In my opinion, JBL (or the Smackdown creative team for that matter) is kind of at a crossroads.

They can either.....

a) NEVER have him win cleanly and eventually JOB him out of the title. This would be similar to Angle's first World title reign, and Jericho's reign as Undisputed Champion (i.e. none of these guys got clean wins and as result, never established themselves as credible main-eventers at the time). UNLIKE Angle and Jericho however, JBL isn't "way" over with the fans.......so "option A" could be quite damaging for JBL.


b) Realize that JBL is practically in the same situation as Triple H was at the end of 99'. If people recall correctly, Triple H still wasn't quite seen as a TRUE main-event heel.

-On the very 1st episode of Smackdown, HBK helped Triple H retain against The Rock
-His victory over Austin at No Mercy 99' was a fluke
-His victory over Big Show to regain the title, was a fluke (DX help)

Basically - Triple H never had ONE real clean victory over someone "credible" up until this point..............until he started his feud with Mick Foley.

After his feud with Foley, Triple H became CREDIBLE.

In my opinion, this is what the WWE needs to do with JBL now.

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Lastly - I also feel that JBL needs new music.....something more "forceful". His current music, while good (i.e. it fits his character well), isn't really "main-event" music (if that makes sense).

[MVP]

I've gotten used to JBL being champion in the past few months because it's not like RAW was any better with HHH hoarding the title all the time. JBL really needs to be established as a credibile main eventer so the WWE title has a better image once he jobs, and I enjoy JBL's character a lot more than HHH even though I don't like either of them in real life. So I don't mind if Angle or Taker were to job cleanly to JBL out of concern for making the WWE title look good once it's finally passed along.

I'm against the idea of turning Angle face because it would create two problems:

First there would be too many faces on Smackdown in the main event/upper midcard which is exactly what happened to RAW. The only heels on Smackdown besides JBL would be Luther Reigns, Orlando Jordan, Mark Jindrak, Rene Dupree, and Kenzo Suzuki, all of whom are decent wrestlers, but too green to be main eventers.

Second Angle and Taker would clash as the top faces, and one of them would look less important--most likely Angle; and guys like Eddie and Booker T look even LESS important.

As for JBL's theme, it's one of my favorites on Smackdown.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I like the idea of having JBL as the only heel main eventer. I know this may sound stupid to some, but at least then you know the WWE is serious about pushing JBL as the top guy, and without heel competition the show is more free to revolve around the cruiserweight divisions. I say add Billy Kidman and Garrison Cade to his current stable as well (once Jindrak and Reigns join). Angle could then start up a mini-stable with Charlie Haas and Shelton Benjamin (who gets sent over to SmackDown!.

Maybe for music, everyone in his stable can use a mix of his current theme and his APA theme (the two are pretty similiar). I wouldn't mind it if everyone in the stable got formal business clothing with their initials on it or something. And if you bring over Shawn Michaels to SmackDown!, you could have a decent little feud there.

I personally hope JBL holds the title for ages. And I mean AGES. I'm talking way past WrestleMania 21, and even past WrestleMania 22. By then there should be structure to SmackDown!, so JBL as champion doesn't turn people away. John Cena, Doug Basham, Danny Basham, Kurt Angle, Eddie Guerrero, Chavo Guerrero, Shawn Michaels, Orlando Jordan, Billy Kidman, Funaki, Ultimo Dragon and Paul London would be working ot the best of their ability every SmackDown!, and things could be fairly bright. But what I'd like to see happen is John Cena to win the 2006 Royal Rumble (but don't make it too predictable). Then at Mania the JBL/Cena main event feud which has been going for months looks to be coming to a close when they have a staredown in the ring, when both start to smile and laugh. Then JBL with the Fingerpoke from Hell. 1-2-3. Boy the fans would be pissed. Approaching two years of JBL as WWE Champion, and their best chance for dethroning him is on his side.

Who should beat JBL for the title? Things might change in two years or so, but I really think Luther Reigns, a Basham or Orlando Jordan could really take the title from JBL effectively. What would be better is if they did it on a normal edition of SmackDown!. Preferbly Orlando Jordan since he's been with JBL "since the start", which would really make it seem like the people's champion was under their nose the whole time.

[Loose Cannon]

^^No way. You want to have people watching Smackdown next year? JBL doesn't bring in good numbers at all. He brings in numbers that aren't horrible and that are better then what he was bringing in before (Smckdowns numbers improved in Oct), but trust me, you you'll turn away viewers if you keep having him win all the time.

Look, check this out. This is straight from the Observer and one of favorite things they provide. What I'm about to type out is what superstars lose viewers during their segments and what superstars gain viewers on average. This is based from Oct until about now

JBL: -100,700
Big Show: +249,400
CCC: +39,400
Kurt Angle: +192,500
Heidenreich: -68,000
Eddie Guerrero: +118,600
Tough Enough: +128,700
Booker: -56,100
RVD: +112,400
Taker: -4,000

Now Melzer states that top star should have a rating of +250,000 and a superstar should be +400,000. As you can see, Big Show leads everyone and JBL loses viewers more than he gains.

Personally, althought it may be too soon, they need to put the Title on Cena at Mania.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by MVP I've gotten used to JBL being champion in the past few months because it's not like RAW was any better with HHH hoarding the title all the time. JBL really needs to be established as a credibile main eventer so the WWE title has a better image once he jobs, and I enjoy JBL's character a lot more than HHH even though I don't like either of them in real life. So I don't mind if Angle or Taker were to job cleanly to JBL out of concern for making the WWE title look good once it's finally passed along.

Totally agree obviously in regards to "establishing" JBL. Like I said before - if JBL gets jobbed out of the title (while not getting a clean victory), then this last half year or so will be a COMPLETE waste.

I'm against the idea of turning Angle face because it would create two problems: First there would be too many faces on Smackdown in the main event/upper midcard which is exactly what happened to RAW. The only heels on Smackdown besides JBL would be Luther Reigns, Orlando Jordan, Mark Jindrak, Rene Dupree, and Kenzo Suzuki, all of whom are decent wrestlers, but too green to be main eventers.

If Angle made the turn, then I would hope that someone like RVD (SD's equivalent of Edge) could turn to counter it. RVD could then get pushed, while guys like Luther Reins, Billy Kidman, and Charlie Hass "stepped it up" as heels (for a huge push in the nearby future........kinda like the equivalent of Mohammad Hussan, Maven, and Gene Snitsky on RAW).

Ideally - you would have Booker T, Big Show,....and even Kurt Angle playing a similar role to what Kane, Benoit, and Jericho do on RAW (i.e. have the "appearance" of being a main-eventer, but being used primarily to 'put over' up-and-comers). Ditto for Undertaker (he'd be a bit "higher up" however.......kinda like HBK on RAW). Still - he'd be another guy who would put others over (maybe a small title reign before that though).

Finally - you'd have Cena and Eddie Guerrero (basically - your Orton and soon-to-be Batista equivalent).......going after JBL (the Triple H equivalent......if he gets victories over "credible" wrestlers).

As far as RAW is concerned, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about.

Faces
-Benoit
-Orton
-Jericho
-HBK
-Kane

Heels
-Triple H
-Edge
-Batista
-Snitsky (victory over Kane earns the "mention").

Along with that, you have guys like Simon Dean, Maven, and Mohammad Hussan who are emerging (which to some degree, will help counter Batista's up-and-coming turn).

As for JBL's theme, it's one of my favorites on Smackdown.

JBL has a good theme, but it's not.............."main-event" music in my opinion (don't know if that makes sense or not).


Basically - I've always felt that a "main-event" type theme should be more "forceful"......or something that can get the crowd's attention right away.

I'm not sure if JBL's music is really like that. I dunno.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon ^^No way. You want to have people watching Smackdown next year? JBL doesn't bring in good numbers at all. He brings in numbers that aren't horrible and that are better then what he was bringing in before (Smckdowns numbers improved in Oct), but trust me, you you'll turn away viewers if you keep having him win all the time. Look, check this out. This is straight from the Observer and one of favorite things they provide. What I'm about to type out is what superstars lose viewers during their segments and what superstars gain viewers on average. This is based from Oct until about now JBL: -100,700 Big Show: +249,400 CCC: +39,400 Kurt Angle: +192,500 Heidenreich: -68,000 Eddie Guerrero: +118,600 Tough Enough: +128,700 Booker: -56,100 RVD: +112,400 Taker: -4,000 Now Melzer states that top star should have a rating of +250,000 and a superstar should be +400,000. As you can see, Big Show leads everyone and JBL loses viewers more than he gains. Personally, althought it may be too soon, they need to put the Title on Cena at Mania.

Wow.

The "Big Show" stat is pretty surprising.

The JBL stat is understandable IMO. As of right now, the guy looks like a mid-carder out of place. This is for two reasons:

a) He's had no clean victories over "credible" wrestlers thus far (one on one).

b) He's been in the WWE for way too long. Because he was "average" for so long, the fans are having a hard time accepting him as a main-eventer.


Personally - I'd like to see this stat *AFTER* JBL gets clean victories over the Kurt Angle's, the Eddie Guerrero's, and the Undertaker's.

[Corkscrewed]

^ That's what I've said for months. His pin over Booker, despite being technically unclean, was his first credible win since he won the title. They should have at least given him solid wins over some solid midcarders, but the closest they came to that was having him defeat Rey Mysterio. And I think he beat Hardcore maybe? Or it might have ended in a no contest.

Anyway, I am sick of him holding the belt. Sunday was a start, but it was six months too late. Think about it... JBL... with a six month reign???? It STILL sounds like a total fluke.

Cena is still twice as credible in my eyes right now. And I'm sure in other fans' minds too.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by Corkscrewed ^ That's what I've said for months. His pin over Booker, despite being technically unclean, was his first credible win since he won the title. They should have at least given him solid wins over some solid midcarders, but the closest they came to that was having him defeat Rey Mysterio. And I think he beat Hardcore maybe? Or it might have ended in a no contest. Anyway, I am sick of him holding the belt. Sunday was a start, but it was six months too late. Think about it... JBL... with a six month reign???? It STILL sounds like a total fluke. Cena is still twice as credible in my eyes right now. And I'm sure in other fans' minds too.

Here's what *I* would consider doing:

-Have JBL get his "clean" victories over Big Show, Angle, and even Taker until Wrestlemania.

-Build Cena strongly as well. Have him defeat the same wrestlers as well.

At Wrestlemania, Cena goes 'over' JBL to win the title.


What' achieved:

-JBL becomes a credible main-eventer.

-Cena goes over a *now* credible main-eventer.


Ideally - You could have Cena go over Taker at Mania.........but we all know that this will NEVER happen.....

Booker T, Big Show, and Angle will do nothing for Cena at Mania' either (since from a marks' perspective, Cena is practically on that level anyways. Angle does nothing for Cena, since Angle has already jobbed twice in the past 2 WM ME's of SD).


The match would be kinda shitty, but atleast you would have TWO legitamate stars being elevated.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Heyman Here's what *I* would consider doing: -Have JBL get his "clean" victories over Big Show, Angle, and even Taker until Wrestlemania. -Build Cena strongly as well. Have him defeat the same wrestlers as well. At Wrestlemania, Cena goes 'over' JBL to win the title. What' achieved: -JBL becomes a credible main-eventer. -Cena goes over a *now* credible main-eventer. Ideally - You could have Cena go over Taker at Mania.........but we all know that this will NEVER happen..... Booker T, Big Show, and Angle will do nothing for Cena at Mania' either (since from a marks' perspective, Cena is practically on that level anyways. Angle does nothing for Cena, since Angle has already jobbed twice in the past 2 WM ME's of SD). The match would be kinda shitty, but atleast you would have TWO legitamate stars being elevated.

That is what I hope as well. I can't help but think it is too soon for Cena to win the belt. Unless they really started building up a feud tomorrow, which I can't see happening.

Maybe they could have JBL cost Cena a match against Orlando Jordan for the WWE United States Championship. Cena still has that belt, and they need to get it off him quick unless they want him serving as a double champion (which wouldn't really be that bad).

The idea of keeping the WWE Championship on JBL is a bit shaky, but if they gave him strong victories, who knows how much of a draw JBL can be? I definately see him holding the title until WrestleMania 21 at the least.

[MVP]

Originally Posted by Heyman If Angle made the turn, then I would hope that someone like RVD (SD's equivalent of Edge) could turn to counter it. RVD could then get pushed, while guys like Luther Reins, Billy Kidman, and Charlie Hass "stepped it up" as heels (for a huge push in the nearby future........kinda like the equivalent of Mohammad Hussan, Maven, and Gene Snitsky on RAW). Ideally - you would have Booker T, Big Show,....and even Kurt Angle playing a similar role to what Kane, Benoit, and Jericho do on RAW (i.e. have the "appearance" of being a main-eventer, but being used primarily to 'put over' up-and-comers). Ditto for Undertaker (he'd be a bit "higher up" however.......kinda like HBK on RAW). Still - he'd be another guy who would put others over (maybe a small title reign before that though). Finally - you'd have Cena and Eddie Guerrero (basically - your Orton and soon-to-be Batista equivalent).......going after JBL (the Triple H equivalent......if he gets victories over "credible" wrestlers). As far as RAW is concerned, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. Faces -Benoit -Orton -Jericho -HBK -Kane Heels -Triple H -Edge -Batista -Snitsky (victory over Kane earns the "mention"). Along with that, you have guys like Simon Dean, Maven, and Mohammad Hussan who are emerging (which to some degree, will help counter Batista's up-and-coming turn).

I see what you're saying, but HHH is the only heel that is ever gonna be the main focus for a significant amount of time since he runs the show. Edge might get a World Title run which would be great, but it's likely to be short, second-fiddle to whatever HHH is doing, or both. I love Snitsky, and I want to see him be a serious upper midcarder/main eventer, but with his inevitable JOB to Kane coming up that's likely to kill his momentum.

Then there's Muhammed Hussan who I have really high hopes for, and he's probably gonna go over Jericho at NYR; which I think is a GREAT idea because Jericho is still credible in even the casual fans' eyes, and like you said, would put over an up-and-comer.

I'm still against Angle's turn despite your points because they're valid. Show and Booker being used to put over up-and-comers similar to HBK and Jericho on RAW.

After seeing LC's post about the ratings, Angle is really the only main-event heel that can draw, and to turn him baby would really kill anything the heels on SD have going for them. Don't get me wrong guys like CCC, Dupree, and Reigns are great heels, but
they're not in Angle's standing.

I know heels are supposed to be hated, but JBL's drawing power cannot stand alone or else we have another Diesel on our hands.

[McLegend]

I know no one likes JBL, but he's gold. I just saw tha match with a Angle I give it ***1/2 out of 5 stars. He's one of the best heels in recent memory. He plays the part perfectly. It's a shame no one watches him. The WWE would be wise to keep the title on him until WrestleMania.

In other words I watch Smackdown because of JBL.

[The CyNick]

The Big Show TV numbers are probably slightly inflated because he was out for a while, and came back as a somewhat fresh face.

The thing about JBL as champ is the same problem as HHH dominating RAW, its enough already with the heels!

People dont want to go to house shows, watch TV and pay for PPVs that end with the heel going over at the end. Thats never been the WWE formula for booking, and when they've had their greatest successes it was on the backs of strong babyfaces, not strong heels.

The WWE seems caught in this 1983 NWA philospohy of booking where you build a strong heel for months and months, have a babyface take the title for a couple of months, and then go back to the heel.

The formula of having dominant babyface has proven much more successful, and thats where the WWE needs to go.

Obviously on SD the two guys to do that with is Eddie and Cena. The Eddie thing is very frustrating because they gave him a shot in the Spring, he did okay, and they felt that wasn't good enough. JBL has done far worse, and yet he's still got the belt, and is likely going to keep it past Mania (at least).

Same thing on RAW. Benoit was starting to gain some steam in April and May, and then HHH decided it was time to take over again, and Benoit shot down the card.

That said, and Ive said this all along, JBL is very entertaining, he just doesn't draw. But then again, neither does HHH, and its not like he's going anywhere.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by The CyNick The Big Show TV numbers are probably slightly inflated because he was out for a while, and came back as a somewhat fresh face. The thing about JBL as champ is the same problem as HHH dominating RAW, its enough already with the heels! People dont want to go to house shows, watch TV and pay for PPVs that end with the heel going over at the end. Thats never been the WWE formula for booking, and when they've had their greatest successes it was on the backs of strong babyfaces, not strong heels. The WWE seems caught in this 1983 NWA philospohy of booking where you build a strong heel for months and months, have a babyface take the title for a couple of months, and then go back to the heel. The formula of having dominant babyface has proven much more successful, and thats where the WWE needs to go. Obviously on SD the two guys to do that with is Eddie and Cena. The Eddie thing is very frustrating because they gave him a shot in the Spring, he did okay, and they felt that wasn't good enough. JBL has done far worse, and yet he's still got the belt, and is likely going to keep it past Mania (at least). Same thing on RAW. Benoit was starting to gain some steam in April and May, and then HHH decided it was time to take over again, and Benoit shot down the card. That said, and Ive said this all along, JBL is very entertaining, he just doesn't draw. But then again, neither does HHH, and its not like he's going anywhere.

I know this is sort of off-topic, but I really think Eddie Guerrero should have won the Royal Rumble, gone over to RAW, and beaten Triple H for the World Heavyweight Championship at WrestleMania in the main event. Maybe make it a Triple Threat with Shawn Michaels. Hell, Triple H vs. Eddie Guerrero vs. Chris Benoit with maybe Shawn Michaels in there for a Fatal Fouray would have been great. But anyway, Eddie would have made a better World Heavyweight Champion than a WWE Champion.

Eddie is one of the most able drawing guys in the WWE. Sure he didn't do much when he was WWE Champion, but on RAW he's be in more of a position to bring in the ratings, and really do public appearances.
They'd be more of an unpredictablity to Eddie, which cannot be captured on SmackDown!. Someone can go to a SmackDown! show and tell us "Oh, Eddie burnt JBL's suit in a fire he lit in his limo.", and we'd be like "Woah! Sounds interesting.", but we wouldn't need to tune in. Every week when Eddie tweaks the law on RAW, we have to be there watching, live, to capture the real emotion of what's happening.

On SmackDown!, Benoit could then challenge Brock Lesnar at WrestleMania XX, have a ***** match, and maybe even convince Lesnar to stay in the WWE (a standing ovation and a quality match at WrestleMania instead of being booed out of the building may have opted that). Benoit would have made a much better intense dominant face champ on SmackDown! then that same role on RAW. Benoit vs. JBL could have been much more entertaining than Eddie vs. JBL, in my mind.