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Old 03-09-2005, 02:00 PM   #1
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How should Taker/Orton at Mania be booked? *Poss. Spoilers*
Well Orton officiallly laid out the challenge to Taker on Raw, yet we all knew this match was in the works for months. The actual buildiup could have been a lot better, for example...

At the Royal Rumble before Orton's match against Triple H, Orton is being interviewed. Orton talks about every legend he has taken out, then they could have Undertaker just walking up behind him while glaring. Although Orton never notices Taker's presence, Taker is there listening to Orton talk about all the legends he has taken out.

Then the week after HBK told Orton to make an impact at Wrestlemania, Orton comes out and talks about how last year at Wrestlemania, he gave Mick Foley the worst beating of his life and that this year he wants another legend to do that to. He mentions a lot of legends...Hogan, Rock, Austin, Piper, Savage, and even Sting. However, he doesn't mention The Undertaker.

The weekl after that Orton just defeated Maven in the match and he's in the ring celebrating when...

*the lights go out*

*The Undertaker's music starts to play and The Undertaker comes out*

The Undertaker and Orton stare face to face in the ring ala Hogan and Rock. Undertaker tells Orton that he left out someone from that list and proceeds to tell Orton about all of his Wrestlemania accomplishments. And then tells Orton that if he should face anyone at Wrestlemania it should be the only undefeated wrestler in Wrestlemania history. Orton accepts Taker's challenge and promises to show the whole World at Wrestlemania that he really is "The Legend Killer."

Then in the weeks leading up to Wrestlemania they can have them appearing on the "other" show helping each other out. For instance, Taker is getting beaten up by The Cabinet, so Orton comes out to help Taker out. Then the next week Undertaker shows up to help Orton fight off maybe Christian and Tomko. Thus showing that both guys respect each other and the Mania match is booked as face vs. face.

At Wrestlemania, The Undertaker wins the match after a Tombstone, while Taker is celebrating his victory, Orton gets up and spins Taker around. After an intense staredown, Orton extends his hand out to Taker. Taker accepts the handshake and orton starts to leave the ring, but stops. He goes up to Taker and does the Taker kneel down, arm raised thing iin tribute to Taker...so Taker responds by doing the same, but as Taker starts to kneel down, Orton jumps up and....BAM RKO! Orton snaps and begins to beat the living shit out of Taker. 3 RKO's and some sick looking chair shots as Taker gets busted open as Orton lays Taker out in the middle of the ring at Wrestlemania in a pool of his own blood. To top it off, Orton stands ontop of Taker posing in a "victory."

The next night on Raw, Orton comes out and starts talking about ever since being kicked out of Evolution he worried too much about being accepted by the fans that he forgot who he was. Then, at Wrestlemania, after being pinned by The Undertaker...he realized that it should all be about one person. RANDY ORTON...THE LEGEND KILLER! He says he did what he would've done this time last year...he killed the Wrestlemania legacy and the legend of the Undertaker. He states that not pinning The Undertaker didn't matter, because in the end...Orton was the one left standing.
------
What do you guys think of that scenario?
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Old 03-09-2005, 02:03 PM   #2
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That won't happen because that actually makes sense.
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Old 03-09-2005, 02:06 PM   #3
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No shit.
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Old 03-09-2005, 02:06 PM   #4
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Well, Taker keeps his streak and Orton looks strong.

I like it.
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Old 03-09-2005, 02:14 PM   #5
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I'd enjoy that a lot. Because the buildup is WAY too little to have Taker's streak end, just like that (hell, last year would have been better, technically). And to see RKO turn heel and really embark on it, that'd be cool.

Next year, they could revisit it, have a rematch, and THEN have RKO win. I'd personally like that much better. 13-0... and then you lose. Unlucky 13 in that way, not in 13th match.

Just my opinion.
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Old 03-09-2005, 02:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corkscrewed
I'd enjoy that a lot. Because the buildup is WAY too little to have Taker's streak end, just like that (hell, last year would have been better, technically). And to see RKO turn heel and really embark on it, that'd be cool.

Next year, they could revisit it, have a rematch, and THEN have RKO win. I'd personally like that much better. 13-0... and then you lose. Unlucky 13 in that way, not in 13th match.

Just my opinion.
IMO, I don't think the streak should ever end.
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Old 03-09-2005, 02:47 PM   #7
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they need to turn randy back to the legend killer but not with hunter and i'm speaking as a huge orton fan
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Old 03-09-2005, 03:05 PM   #8
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They should be booked as late in the game as possible.
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Old 03-09-2005, 03:08 PM   #9
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Yeah, I don't think Orton should go over 'taker at WM21. Perhaps at a later time, but the build-up has been utterly useless.
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Old 03-09-2005, 03:22 PM   #10
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I don't want Taker to be done in by Randy Orton, the fans don't like him. We could have Orton 'lose it' during the match and chair the Undertaker and either the ref. doesn't see or its aloud, then he picks Taker up and goes for the RKO...

Im not sure, but I'm thinking there could a way Taker could reverse the RKO into a tombstone and win, then as he celebrates, Orton stands, he turns completely heel and goes to chair Taker, to which Taker guillotines him and leaves.
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Old 03-09-2005, 03:23 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snakeboss
I don't want Taker to be done in by Randy Orton, the fans don't like him.
Are you retarded?
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Old 03-09-2005, 03:25 PM   #12
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Since when does the WWE give a shit about what the fans like? :\
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Old 03-09-2005, 04:35 PM   #13
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I don't get why you guys LOVE this streak so much. It's sure not putting anybody over and that's a no no, especially for a guy like Orton. I've said it as much as I can say it, Orton needs to beat Taker clean.

Look at it this way, put yourself in Orton's shoes:

You beat a legend clean in the ring. You end his streak. You pull something off nobody thought you could. Then after you win, after you take a so called legend down, you beat his ass.

OR

You lose. You become a soar loser. Then you beat a guy up.

Which one boosts your ego to more? Which one makes you believe you're unstoppable, which one places you in a catogory nobody else is in?

Yea, that's why it's Choice 1 for me.
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Old 03-09-2005, 05:00 PM   #14
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Nothing good will come of Taker winning at Mania. Orton is a main eventer, even though his tenure on RAW was shat on. It's time for Taker to put someone over, cause last I knew he hasn't done that. I know he jobbed to JBL a few times, but none of those matches were clean jobs.
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Old 03-09-2005, 05:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
I don't get why you guys LOVE this streak so much. It's sure not putting anybody over and that's a no no, especially for a guy like Orton. I've said it as much as I can say it, Orton needs to beat Taker clean.

Look at it this way, put yourself in Orton's shoes:

You beat a legend clean in the ring. You end his streak. You pull something off nobody thought you could. Then after you win, after you take a so called legend down, you beat his ass.

OR

You lose. You become a soar loser. Then you beat a guy up.

Which one boosts your ego to more? Which one makes you believe you're unstoppable, which one places you in a catogory nobody else is in?

Yea, that's why it's Choice 1 for me.

Well, I'm a huge Orton fan, but I just don't want 'taker's streak to end so abruptly. Maybe with a good buildup like last year, but not something that was seemingly pulled out of their ass.
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Old 03-09-2005, 05:26 PM   #16
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A clean win over Taker is better for Orton than Taker getting another win on his "streak".
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Old 03-09-2005, 07:29 PM   #17
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It does seem the bookers have just pulled this out of their arses after they realised that Orton wasn't over enough to be in the main event at mania.

I think he will end takers streak however i dont think it will be cleanly and thus will not greatly benfit Orton.
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Old 03-09-2005, 07:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlsberg
It does seem the bookers have just pulled this out of their arses after they realised that Orton wasn't over enough to be in the main event at mania.

I think he will end takers streak however i dont think it will be cleanly and thus will not greatly benfit Orton.
1) This has been planned for months. The buildup was shit, but it's been reported for ages.

2) What rock do you people live under? Orton's not popular, Orton's not over enough to main event wrestlemania (Which would ignore the fact that they'd been hyping Batista for it since at LEAST the Rumble), blah blah blah.
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Old 03-09-2005, 07:45 PM   #19
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yea, they scrapped the Orton plan well before Rumble
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Old 03-09-2005, 07:51 PM   #20
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Karlsberg does not have that much rep yet (10+)
I know Orton and HHH for mania was scraped well in advance but i had no idea that they had been planning Taker against Orton for so long.
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Old 03-09-2005, 07:54 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BatistaBomb
they need to turn randy back to the legend killer but not with hunter and i'm speaking as a huge orton fan

The only problem with him being a legend killer is who would be next. The reason it ended was because thier was no one left on Raw for him to beat basically. Him turing heel yes but being the legend killer wont work.
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Old 03-09-2005, 08:06 PM   #22
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Um, what? No thre reason it ended was because someone in that front office had shit for brains. The plan way back when was for Orton to remain heel and face a babyface HHH at Mania. Or for Orton to turn face, much like Batista did, after they teased it for a while.

No one left to beat? You mean "Legends?" Well he only really beat one "Legend" anyway. There was plenty people for him left to beat. Does HBK ring a bell? How about Kane?
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Old 03-09-2005, 08:24 PM   #23
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I agree with the people saying Randy Orton is not over enough. Face it, he's not.
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Old 03-09-2005, 08:27 PM   #24
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yea, we've established that 3000 times the past 3 months. Who said he was over? Judging by the reaction he got on Raw just simpily stating he was going to end the win streak, I'd say he's in good shape so far turning back to heel.
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Old 03-09-2005, 08:31 PM   #25
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So Basically

Smiling, gay pose, kissing up, saving females Randy Orton = NOT OVER

arrogant, cocky, cool pose, ending streaks, Legend Killer Randy Orton = OVER
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Old 03-09-2005, 08:37 PM   #26
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What are you talking about LC? Everyone knows that a man whose had the same gimmick for 15 years and never puts anyone over is FAR more marketable than a young, charismatic Legend Killer.
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Old 03-09-2005, 08:44 PM   #27
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yea, I don't know. Took a few pills today, so I'm probably out of my mind for even suggessting young talent be put over clean at the biggest stage of them all.
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Old 03-09-2005, 09:12 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
So Basically

Smiling, gay pose, kissing up, saving females Randy Orton = NOT OVER

arrogant, cocky, cool pose, ending streaks, Legend Killer Randy Orton = OVER
Randy'll be over as long as they stop sugar coating him. Honestly, if they wanted to, they could make him a babyface "legend killer" and still have him over.
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Old 03-09-2005, 09:12 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
yea, I don't know. Took a few pills today, so I'm probably out of my mind for even suggessting young talent be put over clean at the biggest stage of them all.
Naw. Just for asking the ipossible.
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Old 03-09-2005, 10:03 PM   #30
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Orton is a faggot. He still sucks on the mic. I hope Taker no sells everything and makes him look weak.
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Old 03-09-2005, 10:27 PM   #31
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I think if Orton was turn to turn heel, the scenario I did would be best. Because a babyface Orton can not beat The Undertaker and if he goes into Mania as a baby then he should lose. The turn would be more effective if he would destroy Taker after the match.
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Old 03-10-2005, 12:48 AM   #32
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A simple comparison will show the obvious answer to this question:

Chris Jericho vs. Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania XIX

Jericho needed the win to elevate him to main event heel status. Had Booker T beaten Triple H (another match that should've gone the other way... but that's another topic), a heel Jericho with a fresh win over HBK would've been the perfect opponent for him.

Instead, the over the hill and played out Shawn Michaels picked up the win, Jericho suckered him into a handshake and low blowed him (admittedly a cool spot, but not good enough), and that was that.


Now, while comparing Randy Orton to Chris Jericho should be a mortal sin punishable by execution, the Orton vs. Taker set up is very much akin to the Jericho vs. HBK set up. One man is an established superstar with tons of huge victories in his career, the other is an upper mid-card wrestler who has been in the World Title scene before but never really made an impact thanks to politics.

Jericho's loss at WM XIX led him nowhere, and although he didn't lose any credibility from it, he didn't gain any either. A loss for Orton would be the same thing. What's he got to brag about after WrestleMania if he loses to Taker cleanly? He went toe-to-toe with the Dead man? Big fucking deal. So have lots of other people - it doesn't mean shit.

A loss for Orton would be detrimental to his career at this point. Hopefully the WWE realizes this and books him to win, then turn heel the same night, or at least the following night on RAW.

But again, this IS the WWE we're talking about.
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Old 03-10-2005, 01:11 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingofOldSchool
Well Orton officiallly laid out the challenge to Taker on Raw, yet we all knew this match was in the works for months. The actual buildiup could have been a lot better, for example...

At the Royal Rumble before Orton's match against Triple H, Orton is being interviewed. Orton talks about every legend he has taken out, then they could have Undertaker just walking up behind him while glaring. Although Orton never notices Taker's presence, Taker is there listening to Orton talk about all the legends he has taken out.

Then the week after HBK told Orton to make an impact at Wrestlemania, Orton comes out and talks about how last year at Wrestlemania, he gave Mick Foley the worst beating of his life and that this year he wants another legend to do that to. He mentions a lot of legends...Hogan, Rock, Austin, Piper, Savage, and even Sting. However, he doesn't mention The Undertaker.

The weekl after that Orton just defeated Maven in the match and he's in the ring celebrating when...

*the lights go out*

*The Undertaker's music starts to play and The Undertaker comes out*

The Undertaker and Orton stare face to face in the ring ala Hogan and Rock. Undertaker tells Orton that he left out someone from that list and proceeds to tell Orton about all of his Wrestlemania accomplishments. And then tells Orton that if he should face anyone at Wrestlemania it should be the only undefeated wrestler in Wrestlemania history. Orton accepts Taker's challenge and promises to show the whole World at Wrestlemania that he really is "The Legend Killer."

Then in the weeks leading up to Wrestlemania they can have them appearing on the "other" show helping each other out. For instance, Taker is getting beaten up by The Cabinet, so Orton comes out to help Taker out. Then the next week Undertaker shows up to help Orton fight off maybe Christian and Tomko. Thus showing that both guys respect each other and the Mania match is booked as face vs. face.

At Wrestlemania, The Undertaker wins the match after a Tombstone, while Taker is celebrating his victory, Orton gets up and spins Taker around. After an intense staredown, Orton extends his hand out to Taker. Taker accepts the handshake and orton starts to leave the ring, but stops. He goes up to Taker and does the Taker kneel down, arm raised thing iin tribute to Taker...so Taker responds by doing the same, but as Taker starts to kneel down, Orton jumps up and....BAM RKO! Orton snaps and begins to beat the living shit out of Taker. 3 RKO's and some sick looking chair shots as Taker gets busted open as Orton lays Taker out in the middle of the ring at Wrestlemania in a pool of his own blood. To top it off, Orton stands ontop of Taker posing in a "victory."

The next night on Raw, Orton comes out and starts talking about ever since being kicked out of Evolution he worried too much about being accepted by the fans that he forgot who he was. Then, at Wrestlemania, after being pinned by The Undertaker...he realized that it should all be about one person. RANDY ORTON...THE LEGEND KILLER! He says he did what he would've done this time last year...he killed the Wrestlemania legacy and the legend of the Undertaker. He states that not pinning The Undertaker didn't matter, because in the end...Orton was the one left standing.
------
What do you guys think of that scenario?
Only scenario that possibly makes sense if you ask me. Oh wait...you did.
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Old 03-10-2005, 01:14 AM   #34
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AS Lc stated Orton needs to be cocky, he needs to be heel again. I agree with the beatdowns and all that. The thing is, the bookers will be forced to turn him heel, due to us the fans. That's exactly why they are booking this match. This is an easy way for them to turn him heel. To make him a bigger heel, you have him come out the next night on RAW bragging about his win. "She's got Legs" hits and out comes Stacy. She tries to persuade him that he was wrong. Orton responds by saying Stacy, Baby, I'm who I have always been. Then he gets a smile on his face and then bam RKO.

Yes Legends on Raw are dwindling. It's true. That's why he gets drafted to SD. Then he has the Legend of Guererro, the Legend of Kurt Angle, JBL (yeah sorry), Taker, Cena (way down the road though). Big show. I think what will ultimately due Orton good here is have him get shipped over to SD.
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Old 03-10-2005, 01:21 AM   #35
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Yes. Thank you!

You can't be heel if you've got Stacy on your arm. You need to drop the girl and just be a cocky asshole.

Though if you could do a face "Legend Killer" I'd love to see that.
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Old 03-10-2005, 10:34 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Sunday Night
A simple comparison will show the obvious answer to this question:

Chris Jericho vs. Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania XIX

Jericho needed the win to elevate him to main event heel status. Had Booker T beaten Triple H (another match that should've gone the other way... but that's another topic), a heel Jericho with a fresh win over HBK would've been the perfect opponent for him.

Instead, the over the hill and played out Shawn Michaels picked up the win, Jericho suckered him into a handshake and low blowed him (admittedly a cool spot, but not good enough), and that was that.


Now, while comparing Randy Orton to Chris Jericho should be a mortal sin punishable by execution, the Orton vs. Taker set up is very much akin to the Jericho vs. HBK set up. One man is an established superstar with tons of huge victories in his career, the other is an upper mid-card wrestler who has been in the World Title scene before but never really made an impact thanks to politics.

Jericho's loss at WM XIX led him nowhere, and although he didn't lose any credibility from it, he didn't gain any either. A loss for Orton would be the same thing. What's he got to brag about after WrestleMania if he loses to Taker cleanly? He went toe-to-toe with the Dead man? Big fucking deal. So have lots of other people - it doesn't mean shit.

A loss for Orton would be detrimental to his career at this point. Hopefully the WWE realizes this and books him to win, then turn heel the same night, or at least the following night on RAW.

But again, this IS the WWE we're talking about.
But, Jericho and Orton are in two different positions.

Orton is a babyface going into the match, he needs more of a reason to turn heel other than "I'm going to end Undertaker's Wrestlemania streak. Rawr." A loss to Taker at Mania would give him even more reason to snap and turn heel. Yes, a win for Orton at Mania would be good, but with the crap build up they have given for this match and the fact that they tried to push a babyface Orton down our throats for 6+ months should tell us that they need to give a better storyline for an Orton turn.

LC, you were bitching last week how after months of being made to look unstoppable, Cena lost the U.S. title to Orlando Jordan. So, then why is it not okay for Taker to pin Orton at Wrestlemania, ending a 13 year long streak that has been pushed for years with little buildup? I think the scenario I gave would have more long term impact than Orton beating Taker in a somewhat insignificant match. If a babyface Orton were to be pinned by The Undertaker at Wrestlemania, *THEN* Orton would have a reason snap and beat the holy hell out of Taker after the match, thus turning him heel.
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Old 03-10-2005, 10:42 AM   #37
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That is true KOOS. I agree with you 100 percent. Orton has stated though that he would like to stay face because he likes the pop. I think if this kid is smart, and he ever wants to be on top of the wrestling world again he will need to be heel. The thing is, how did we ever grow to love the Rock. We had to love him as a heel, which by turning him face would have been a lot better because we already loved him. As we have stated hundreds of thousands of times, the orton face turn was rushed. If they had not put the title on him and had not have him be a babyface, he could easily be getting the face pops that Batista gets right now. The sad thing is that Orton is getting pops similar to what Jeff Hardy got. Hardy was a ladies face, meaning all the ladies cheered for him, but the guys did not really care about it. That's how I see Orton getting if they do not turn him heel right now.
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Old 03-10-2005, 10:49 AM   #38
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Woah Woah, yea look at the two talents here. Cena and Taker. Cena = the future star of the WWE. Much like Austin when he came up, he NEEDS to be protected. Taker is almost of his way out. HE NEEDS to start doing jobs. Come on, I know you guys learned something from 2001-2003, where the guys like Austin, HHH, Taker and others should of done jobs to guys to elevate the new talent.

And look. Why does Orton NEED to do a heelish act after he loses to turn him heel. The fans are already gradually turning him. You know he's turning. Why can't he get the rub then? Giving him the rub and then making him show no respect is much better then giving him a loss and making him look like a soar loser.

Point: Wrestlemania 13. Austin vs Bret Hart. Bret was a babyface going into the match, correct? What happened, Bret got the win, but kicked Austin when he was down and got tremendous heat for showing no respect. He didn't have a reason to turn heel other then he won and nobody seemed to appreciate it. Just like nobody seemed to care about Orton after he went after HHH. They turned to Batista and left Orton in the dust.

Now, you may say, well shouldn't Austin have got the win if you're arguing that new talent should get the victory. Well not here because Austin came out of the match looking stronger then ever by not quitting. This got both parties over and the angle worked real well.

By giving Taker a win, how does that make Orton look strong? Yea, maybe he'll get his win at Mania 22, but isn't that a little to far down the line to be talking about right now. This is classic Taker. He doesn't and hasn't given one guy a rub in the last 5 years. Cena had a chance to beat him on a major PPV and didn't. Yea, he got his win on Smackdown, but it was made to look like a fluke. You got to protect these young guys, especially Orton and CENA. You can't be jobbing them and expect people to care. More towards Ortan then Cena. He's taken enough hits already, that if he loses at Mania, he may be screwed.

Yea, Taker will probably win and Orton will get a victory over him later. On Mania 22? Very doubtful. But still, the fact of the matter is Taker keeps his streak and Orton becomes just another name on that long and pathetic list.
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Old 03-10-2005, 11:00 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
Woah Woah, yea look at the two talents here. Cena and Taker. Cena = the future star of the WWE. Much like Austin when he came up, he NEEDS to be protected. Taker is almost of his way out. HE NEEDS to start doing jobs. Come on, I know you guys learned something from 2001-2003, where the guys like Austin, HHH, Taker and others should of done jobs to guys to elevate the new talent.

[....]

Point: Wrestlemania 13. Austin vs Bret Hart. Bret was a babyface going into the match, correct? What happened, Bret got the win, but kicked Austin when he was down and got tremendous heat for showing no respect. He didn't have a reason to turn heel other then he won and nobody seemed to appreciate it. Just like nobody seemed to care about Orton after he went after HHH. They turned to Batista and left Orton in the dust.
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Old 03-10-2005, 11:01 AM   #40
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He'd only be screwed, *IF* he doesn't give a massive beatdown to Taker after their Mania match. I mean afterall, like you said, you don't have to win a match to look strong as long as it's booked right.
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