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03-08-2006, 06:05 PM
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#1 |
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It's a blood match!
Posts: 27,382
  
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Who does HBK think he is?
Really try to think about this... HBK was on top of the wrestling work for only about two and a half years... He was running in the IC title division from like 92-95, and then main event status from 95-98... Does that make him the legend he thinks that he is? I don't think so. Sure he has had some of the best matches in WWE History... but name your top five WWE matches of all time, how many of them include HBK? Chances are maybe one or two, most people would say Bret/Austin from WM 13, Austin/Rock from WM 17, Bret/Owen from WM 10, Undertaker/Mankind from KOTR 98, HHH/Cactus Jack from RR 2000 or No Way Out 2000, or Savage/Steamboat from WM 3.... Sure the Razor/HBK ladder match was amazing for the time, but does it hold up now? Not really, its nothing compared to the ladder matches we have today... or how about Bret/HBK at WM 12? Hardly a five star match, we all know it, no matter how much we want to respect it, the first twenty minutes of that match are very dull. At least the Rock/HHH Iron Man match was non-stop. HBK is totally full of himself, yes he has had great matches... however not the best in WWE history. Honestly I think HBK's best matches have been since his return from his back surgery. If HBK is thinking he has nothing left to proove, he is wrong. He has a lot to proove if he wants to justify his huge ego. He is nowhere near the stardom of Austin, Rock, Hogan, Hart, or honestly Triple H. Maybe he has been wrestling for nearly twenty years, but that doens't mean much, name one four star match that The Rockers had? Name more than five four star matches that HBK had for the Intercontinental Title, name more than five for the World Title? Im not saying it can't be done, but you truely have to think. So what im getting at is, if you agree with me post what matches or feuds you think HBK would have to be apart of to be as good as his reputation is? If you disagree, tell me why, and proove it to me.
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03-08-2006, 06:27 PM
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#2 |
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Steve Austin was only on top from 1998 to about 2001 himself, and honestly, I never found his matches to be great myself, so the logic you're using here by itself can't justify the Shawn hate.
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03-08-2006, 06:36 PM
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#3 |
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Temporary
Posts: 15,591
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Of course after coming back from a crippling back injury, and probably being better then you were before the injury when you had all physical abilities that you don't have now and being the MVP since your return...
Yeah I could see how he still has things to prove. |
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03-08-2006, 06:42 PM
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#4 |
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Ron Paul 4 EVA
Posts: 152,467
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Michaels is a legend. He's one of the tops of the roster since the early 90s. He's busted his ass and performed brilliantly. And even if he wasn't in a single "top 5 match" (And he probably would be if I sat down and thought about it), he'd still be a legend.
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03-08-2006, 06:43 PM
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#5 |
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Posts: 1,224
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Personally, I think HBK is a huge prick. His wrestling ability is no doubt excellent, but his whole persona bores the crap out of me. Even his heel turn last year bored the crap out of me. As far as I'm concerned, HBK will never be as big a legend as Foley, Rock, Austin, Hogan etc.
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03-08-2006, 06:58 PM
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#6 | |||||
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est. 1884
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And the ladder match? HBK defined Ladder matches, HBK and Scott Hall set the bar for every other ladder match we have seen and if you would actually watch the match you would see it still holds up today. I would take their WMX match over any of the WWE's recent ladder matches! And furthermore I will take it over any TLC spotfest, their match had ten times the psychology of anything the Dudleyz and Hardy Boyz could throw together! Quote:
Two of the all-time greats in a match that defined this industry, compared to a match between two movie stars. HBK and Bret are probably two of the best wrestlers at bringing psychology to a match, psychology that you clearly can't understand. You do understand that the only reason you think Rock/HHH was so good was because there was so much to distract from the fact that they could not go an hour like HBK/Bret. The Corporation and DX at ringside, HBK as guest referee and the return of the Undertaker! HBK/Bret didn't need any ringside shit. They gave us the best match of all-time, two guys, in a ring, one hour. Maybe you can't appreciate what wrestling really is, maybe you don't enjoy an hour of wrestling. Well, that is what this business was built on, 76-minute World Title matches that would go to a non-contest. If people like you would only respect wrestlers once in a while and stop expecting the next run-in or guest referee or goddamn cheerleading squad to interrupt. Quote:
When did you start watching pro wrestling? 2001? 2000? All you seem to know is Rock and Austin! HBK set the bar for what you are watching today, he redefined ring psychology in the WWE, he carried Kevin fucking Nash to a four star match! He and Marty Jannetty set the bar for every tag team that came after them and they didn't even need to hold the titles (except for five minutes lol). Have you ever watched a Rockers match? He and Marty were going for sixty minutes in a tag match before Rocky Maivia had sprung a single pube. I can't actually believe what I have just read. HBK doesn't need to prove anything, I don't need to prove anything for him, his record speaks for itself, WATCH HIS MATCHES! His is the greatest in-ring psychologist, along with Ric Flair, that I have ever seen. There are two greats in the business, the two best of all-time, the two greatest wrestlers ever... Shawn Michaels and Ric Flair. Someday Kurt Angle's name will hopefully be there too, but frankly Jordan X - Rock, Austin, Hogan, HHH and even Bret... not one of these guys can come close to lacing HBK's boots! |
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03-08-2006, 06:59 PM
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#7 |
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I'm all there is
Posts: 31,811
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Rockers/Orient Express Rumble 91 was a **** right off the top of my head. I'm no HBK mark, but that post is pretty ridiculous. Obviously you have a bias agaist the guy.
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03-08-2006, 07:26 PM
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#8 |
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TPWW's HHH Mark Since '04
Posts: 29,886
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Yeah. The average time a guy has "on top" is 2-5 years. Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair are the exceptions, not the rule.
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03-08-2006, 07:35 PM
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#9 |
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R.I.P Latino Heat
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I am not the biggest HBK fan but I am willing to admit like most people that he is certainly one of the all time greats. However I got to disagree with one thing Avenger said Bret Hart in my opinon is every bit the performer Shawn Michaels is.
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03-08-2006, 07:56 PM
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#10 |
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It's a blood match!
Posts: 27,382
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First of all, Austin, Rock, and Hogan are the most famous wrestlers ever, bar none. Why? Because they entertained the most. Yes, Austin can't out wrestle HBK, nor Hogan or Rock... But (well not really Hogan quite honestly) Austin and Rock were such great entertainers that their style was much more appealing than HBK's.
All I know is Austin/Rock? I grew up in the HBK/Hart/Diesel/Yokozuna/Diesel era... All my life I have researche wrestling history. Hardly any WWE action from the 80's can touch what they do now (not everyone, but im talking guys like Benoit, Angle, Foley, Rock, Austin, HBK, Hart etc...). Don't insult my knowledge on the sport you don't know anything about what I know. Im saying HBK didn't sell tickets, simple fact. Austin and Rock did. Therefore making them better assets to the company BY A MILE than Shawn Michaels. As far as me waiting for the next run in... who cares? If its entertaining its entertaining... the first twenty minutes of Hart/HBK is pure and complete bordome rest holds. The rest is pretty amazing. Im not saying he is a bad wrestler, but he is no where near the level he or most people think he is. Sorry man but Razor/HBK doesn't come close to TLC at WM 17... I don't care how spotty you call it, your just plain out wrong. Ladder Matches are made to be spotty, not psychological, that is boring. You get a ladder match, you do stunts its that simple. It's a great match I KNOW... but it's nowhere near as good as the matches put on today. Austin/Hart is psychology, your an idiot if you don't think so. What is wrestling about to you? Pure tecnical wrestling? That doesn't sale tickets, I love it too man, but it can't compete in the same fucking ball park as the drama you would get from an Austin/Rock match. If you want pure wrestling watch Ring of Honor, its amazing, if you want pure wrestling why would you watch WWE? WORLD WRESTLING ENTERTAINMENT Some of us internet fans don't understand that we are a small small minority... if we stop watching wrestling, it's not gonna kill the buisness. The casual fan doesn't think like we do, they are the majority, and they are what matter. What would I rather watch? Hart/HBK or Austin/Rock? Honestly I would say Austin and Rock because their personalites overshine any flaw that they have technically, and their punch punch kick kick style becomes very real and intense, as apposed to 5 minutes of hard hitting action and 3 minutes of a chin lock. Wrestling has changed, we can't hold onto the 76 minute no contest draws at Shea Stadium... they aren't realistic for our society... This doesn't have to be personal, it shouldn't be I am trying to spark a conversation that hasn't been brought up. You are being too close minded to accept anything but what you belive. |
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03-08-2006, 07:56 PM
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#11 |
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It's a blood match!
Posts: 27,382
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First of all, Austin, Rock, and Hogan are the most famous wrestlers ever, bar none. Why? Because they entertained the most. Yes, Austin can't out wrestle HBK, nor Hogan or Rock... But (well not really Hogan quite honestly) Austin and Rock were such great entertainers that their style was much more appealing than HBK's.
All I know is Austin/Rock? I grew up in the HBK/Hart/Diesel/Yokozuna/Diesel era... All my life I have researche wrestling history. Hardly any WWE action from the 80's can touch what they do now (not everyone, but im talking guys like Benoit, Angle, Foley, Rock, Austin, HBK, Hart etc...). Don't insult my knowledge on the sport you don't know anything about what I know. Im saying HBK didn't sell tickets, simple fact. Austin and Rock did. Therefore making them better assets to the company BY A MILE than Shawn Michaels. As far as me waiting for the next run in... who cares? If its entertaining its entertaining... the first twenty minutes of Hart/HBK is pure and complete bordome rest holds. The rest is pretty amazing. Im not saying he is a bad wrestler, but he is no where near the level he or most people think he is. Sorry man but Razor/HBK doesn't come close to TLC at WM 17... I don't care how spotty you call it, your just plain out wrong. Ladder Matches are made to be spotty, not psychological, that is boring. You get a ladder match, you do stunts its that simple. It's a great match I KNOW... but it's nowhere near as good as the matches put on today. Austin/Hart is psychology, your an idiot if you don't think so. What is wrestling about to you? Pure tecnical wrestling? That doesn't sale tickets, I love it too man, but it can't compete in the same fucking ball park as the drama you would get from an Austin/Rock match. If you want pure wrestling watch Ring of Honor, its amazing, if you want pure wrestling why would you watch WWE? WORLD WRESTLING ENTERTAINMENT Some of us internet fans don't understand that we are a small small minority... if we stop watching wrestling, it's not gonna kill the buisness. The casual fan doesn't think like we do, they are the majority, and they are what matter. What would I rather watch? Hart/HBK or Austin/Rock? Honestly I would say Austin and Rock because their personalites overshine any flaw that they have technically, and their punch punch kick kick style becomes very real and intense, as apposed to 5 minutes of hard hitting action and 3 minutes of a chin lock. Wrestling has changed, we can't hold onto the 76 minute no contest draws at Shea Stadium... they aren't realistic for our society... This doesn't have to be personal, it shouldn't be I am trying to spark a conversation that hasn't been brought up. You are being too close minded to accept anything but what you belive. |
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03-08-2006, 08:03 PM
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#12 |
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He's Here
Posts: 60,735
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How in the name of God could you name Mankind/Undertaker HIAC one of the greatest matches of all time in those examples? It was a good segment, but all it was was like four big bumps.
I wouldn't say that I'm a fan of Shawn Michaels, hell, I'll admit that he was and still is a prick, but to say that he isn't a legend just because he isn't in more than 2 ALL TIME matches in a WWE best matches list is just retarded. If you want to go with that, you better have three of those five be Hulk Hogan matches, and I wouldn't put any of his matches in a top 5 list (even Rock/Hogan or Hogan/Andre). Unless it's for pure entertainment. |
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03-08-2006, 08:08 PM
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#13 | |
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He's Here
Posts: 60,735
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Both Razor/HBK and Rock/Triple H were great matches for different reasons. Rock/Triple H was NOT a spot fest, and what did it do? It launched two of the biggest wrestlers in the past twenty years to the top. I won't say that the TLC matches weren't "good", but they were a completely different style than Razor/HBK and Rock/Hunter. They're virtually impossible to compare. |
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03-08-2006, 08:16 PM
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#14 |
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GO HABS GO!
Posts: 4,018
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These are my top WWE legends ever..when I think wwe and elite, I think these guys...
Not in any order really: Austin Hogan Bret Rock HBK Taker Piper Savage Andre |
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03-08-2006, 08:18 PM
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#15 |
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Temporary
Posts: 15,591
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No HBK is at the level we think he is.
You are comparing him to the 3 biggest draw of all time. How many other people are on Rock, Austin, and Hogan's level? No one is except for Flair. Do I think HBK is better then Rock, Austin, and Hogan? Yes I do. Do I think he is on there on their level? No I don't. Now does that mean he's not legend? No. You can tell just by watching ROH and young wrestler how much of HBK marks they are. So it could easily be argued that Shawn Michaels is one of the most infuential wrestlers of the last 15 years. You talk about Austin and Rock puching and kicking each other seems real. If I am going to wrestle in a 60 mintue match I am obivously going to pace myself, and start out slow. So that match makes a lot of sense. I could understand why people say that match is boring, but IMO it's the quintessential wrestling match. It has everything from Psychology to High spots, and dramtiac ending. The whole match is perfect buildup to the ending. So even the biggest HBK marks (which I am one) would never say he is on The Rock, Austin, or Hogan's level. HBK is a Legend. |
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03-08-2006, 08:30 PM
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#16 |
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love yourself
Posts: 47,788
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legend is a Legend.
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03-08-2006, 08:32 PM
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#17 |
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Temporary
Posts: 15,591
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Nah I'm not. I can accept it though.
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03-08-2006, 08:35 PM
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#18 |
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love yourself
Posts: 47,788
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no you really are. Also you have a match on shockWAVE
 You gunna promo, cause I'm putting you over either way 
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03-08-2006, 08:47 PM
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#19 |
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Instant Credibility
Posts: 2,979
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Mr. X, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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03-08-2006, 08:50 PM
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#20 |
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love yourself
Posts: 47,788
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omg omg PH new sig
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03-08-2006, 08:54 PM
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Ron Paul 4 EVA
Posts: 152,467
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03-09-2006, 12:01 AM
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#22 |
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Haven't read all this but HBK is a legend. No question.
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03-09-2006, 12:51 AM
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So long, Eddie! miss you.
Posts: 1,910
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its onyl lately that i've realised just how good HBK really is.
The unsanctioned match between HHH and HBK was amazing for one. Jericho vs HBK at WM19 was terrific and the angle VS HBK matches, well...i think i've run out of superlatives to describe just how good those matches were. Frankly, whoever started this post...I can't b bothered finding out exactly who it was, obviously knows nothing about the finer art of wrestling |
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03-09-2006, 01:13 AM
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#24 | |
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w0ah
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03-09-2006, 01:21 AM
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#25 |
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I am the cheese
Posts: 51,460
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People who don't watch wrestling know who HBK is ( not ot the extent of Hogan, Austin, Rock or Flair but who is?) thus he is a legend.
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03-09-2006, 07:42 AM
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#26 |
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A Proud MF'R
Posts: 1,429
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the fact is HBK in my personal opinion is the greatest performer in WWE history....not greatest wrestler cause thats Fucking Angle
still to this day my favorite WWE match is HBK/Razor Wrestlemania 10 Ladder match that match revolutionized the business at that point and nobody has topped it because with the exception of 4 ladder matches the rest were spotfests and yes i'll list the 4 i'm talking about HBK/Razor From Summerslam Triple H/Rock From Summerslam The Original TLC From Wrestlemania Eddie Guerrero/RVD From RAW Shawn is a true legend and personally i would like to see him inducted before Bret because while i respect Bret for is in ring performance i think he's a prick for the crap he pulled out of the ring anybody that would sign with another promotion and refuse to drop a title is a piece of shit in my book and since nobody else said this...to answer the thread question who does HBK think he is...... Well he's...THE SHOWSTOPPER...THE ICON....THE MAIN EVENT THE HEARTBREAK KID |
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03-09-2006, 08:05 AM
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#27 |
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Do Unto Others...
Posts: 2,086
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Honestly, I'm about as big a mark for Shawn's matches as anybody, but Mania 12 isn't as good as Rock/HHH, just because Rock/HHH was booked better, meaning they had a better match to work. Keeping people's interest with no pins for an hour doesn't lend itself to good drama. It was still a very good match, but I do think it's overrated. Similarly, despite that Shawn was champ at a bad time, and drew better than Diesel, but Bret drew better in the same time frame. Still, that doesn't detract from the excellence he put out time and again, and then upon return from his injury, at 80%, is still in the upper tier of great wrestlers.
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03-09-2006, 08:07 AM
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#28 |
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Do Unto Others...
Posts: 2,086
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Double Post...
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03-09-2006, 08:18 AM
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#29 |
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It's Clobbering Time!
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Yes what you have just typed is absolutely ridiculous. I have no doubt that HBK was/is one of the biggest pricks in the history of the business, but it is practically impossible to dispute that he is a legend in the wrestling business and one of the greatest in-ring talents ever.
For your point about the Iron Man match with Bret, hey I agree that it wasn't the greatest. I quite frankly believe that his match with Hall at WM X, his match with Jericho at WM19, his match with Angle at WM 21 and the triple threat at WMXX were all better than the Iron Man match. But people within the industry (the one's that really know what they're on about) keep saying it was the greatest so they must have done something right. Oh and as for your top five matches, HBK vs Taker was by far the better HIAC match. |
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03-09-2006, 09:25 AM
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#30 | |
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i def. agree...actually I think its the best hell in the cell theyve ever given us. And yes, HBK is a legend....i dont even feel the need to explain myself there, as everyone else has pretty much given you the argument. |
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03-09-2006, 12:18 PM
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#31 | |
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est. 1884
Posts: 11,488
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I'm a huge prick but that doesn't change how much of a legend I am... wait a second... 
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03-09-2006, 12:21 PM
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#32 | |
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Bent his wookie
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03-09-2006, 12:22 PM
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#33 |
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est. 1884
Posts: 11,488
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I can see where Jordan is coming from in his second post, I respect your opinion's man and it's not personal. But I just can't dispute the fact that HBK is the best wrestler of all-time in my opinion. And in the 90s and noughties there hasn't been a better match than HBK/Bret.
HBK would have sold more merchandise and sold more tickets if he was on top of the wrestling world when Austin, Rock or Hogan where. It was all circumstances, he is four or five times the performer either of them ever were. |
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03-09-2006, 12:33 PM
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#34 | |
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But yeah, I'd much rather see active wrestlers inducted into the Hall of Fame than retired ones. |
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03-09-2006, 12:53 PM
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#35 |
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est. 1884
Posts: 11,488
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Ignore him Pepsi Man he clearly doesn't know the whole story. I am the last person to side with Bret, but this guy is talking shit.
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03-09-2006, 12:56 PM
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#36 |
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He's Here
Posts: 60,735
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Bret did it... FOR THE ROCK!
Wait, that makes no sense. |
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03-09-2006, 01:07 PM
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#37 |
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Tacos!
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Shawn = legend, also Shawn = prick
But so what? its like the baseball hall of fame, there are a ton of assholes in the MLB HOF. Bring pricks doesn't make them any less of legends. HBK, isn't on the level of a Rock, Austin, or Hogan. Those guys were much better entertainers. In ring wise, he's superior to all of them. To me, what makes him great is his in ring ability, as well as some intangibles. I find him so believable in the ring and find his matches to be like a smooth flowing story. HBK would have sold more merchandise and sold more tickets if he was on top of the wrestling world when Austin, Rock or Hogan where. It was all circumstances, he is four or five times the performer either of them ever were. Incorrect. HBK was NEVER the draw any of those 3 were. In ring wise, he's past those guys, as a draw, absolutely not. |
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03-09-2006, 01:09 PM
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#38 | |
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03-09-2006, 01:31 PM
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#39 | |
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est. 1884
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Rock Austin and Hogan are the three luckiest guys in wrestling! They all road the wave of a boom in wrestling. If Rock was HBK it would have been a very similar story. |
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03-09-2006, 02:12 PM
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#40 | |
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Do Unto Others...
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Linear Mode
