this years wrestlemania is MAKE IT OR BREAK IT for the WWE

[Shadow]

Wow kid...you've certainly got balls. Indeed. But hold on a tic....explain to me this.

HOW THE HELL DOES SAYING A GOOD MAN IS NOW ROASTING IN HELL FOR CHEAP HEAT A WAY TO HONOR HIS MEMORY!?

I went back to the third page for that.

Originally Posted by Shadow Wow kid...you've certainly got balls. Indeed. But hold on a tic....explain to me this. HOW THE HELL DOES SAYING A GOOD MAN IS NOW ROASTING IN HELL FOR CHEAP HEAT A WAY TO HONOR HIS MEMORY!? I went back to the third page for that.

I always criticized Orton for this crap. I meant Mysterio referring to Eddie and dedicating matches to him is honoring memory. Not orton.

and people who boo faces often do it to Rebel. A face is a face for a reason, you are meant to cheer him.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Vermaat A face is a face for a reason, you are meant to cheer him.

That, my friend, has many exceptions.

Look at Stone Cold Steve Austin (most famous example). Originally a heel. The WWE tried their damnedest to get him over as a heel, but the fans wouldn't boo him. He became the biggest face in the last 20 years.

On the flip side, look at Rock. The WWE tried (not as hard as Austin, though) to keep him face, but the fans turned on him. He became one of the biggest heels in the last 20 years.

So, while faces are made to be cheered, when a good portion of the fanbase is turned off by them, and boo them, they have to turn heel. It's just natural.

The problem here, though, is the WWE doesn't WANT to turn Cena because he has a grip on the most prized demographic, the younger ones. Not prized because they go to the shows or even watch the TV shows all the time, but prized because kids always WANT WANT WANT and more often than not parents GET GET GET/BUY BUY BUY.

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 That, my friend, has many exceptions. Look at Stone Cold Steve Austin (most famous example). Originally a heel. The WWE tried their damnedest to get him over as a heel, but the fans wouldn't boo him. He became the biggest face in the last 20 years. On the flip side, look at Rock. The WWE tried (not as hard as Austin, though) to keep him face, but the fans turned on him. He became one of the biggest heels in the last 20 years. So, while faces are made to be cheered, when a good portion of the fanbase is turned off by them, and boo them, they have to turn heel. It's just natural. The problem here, though, is the WWE doesn't WANT to turn Cena because he has a grip on the most prized demographic, the younger ones. Not prized because they go to the shows or even watch the TV shows all the time, but prized because kids always WANT WANT WANT and more often than not parents GET GET GET/BUY BUY BUY.

Those are unique cases, and let's face it, crowds were all about rebellion then so that played a role. But when you look back both Austin and Rock turned out to be great at both roles. Austin got most fame as a face but he was a great heel during invasion. WHAT?! lol !!!

Rock of course turned to be one of the greatest faces ever. It is just that these "rebbelious" fans don't give these characters a chance at their roles. If they gave them a chance, they could show what they can, and they did later. I can already see Cena as a great face and so can a lot of other fans, but like I said, these fans and the facts that the heels he has been facing haven't been doing their right role all come together to screw him out of a chance to shine. WWE shouldn't cave in to the fans because often they don't know what is good for the business.

I think to boo a face is disrespectful give them a chance because you never know (look at rock and austin)
As I said, the demographic has been EXPANDED by Cena not changed.

Yeah, it is. And the way they're running it, especially in this slump, is wrong.

SLUMP? Yeah a slump is when your company is the best in the business as the ONLY company on primetime in the U.S and that put out it's competition OUT OF BUSINESS. Sounds like a slump to me. WWE is making a lot of money, not a slump in any WAY, SHAPE or FORM.

As far as his matches, yeah they are similar, but that works. That's the traditional face. That's what Hogan did. That's what Rock did. That's what Austin did. Just because it's tradition, doesn't mean it doesn't work, it does work and I enjoy his matches because they allow you to wait for that big move and comeback. It works good for a face character.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Those are unique cases, and let's face it, crowds were all about rebellion then so that played a role. But when you look back both Austin and Rock turned out to be great at both roles. Austin got most fame as a face but he was a great heel during invasion. WHAT?! lol !!! Rock of course turned to be one of the greatest faces ever. It is just that these "rebbelious" fans don't give these characters a chance at their roles. If they gave them a chance, they could show what they can, and they did later. I can already see Cena as a great face and so can a lot of other fans, but like I said, these fans and the facts that the heels he has been facing haven't been doing their right role all come together to screw him out of a chance to shine. WWE shouldn't cave in to the fans because often they don't know what is good for the business. I think to boo a face is disrespectful give them a chance because you never know (look at rock and austin) As I said, the demographic has been EXPANDED by Cena not changed.

Do you even know what I was referencing when I was talking about Rock? I was talking about his ORIGINAL heel turn from just after he left the Rocky Maivia gimmick and joined the Nation. He had to BECAUSE the fans BOOED him.

If they turned Cena RIGHT NOW, he could be a great heel. If they keep him as a face, in the current gimmick, after (not if) he loses to Hunter at Mania, he's going to fade into the background for a long, long while.

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by Vermaat I always criticized Orton for this crap. I meant Mysterio referring to Eddie and dedicating matches to him is honoring memory. Not orton. and people who boo faces often do it to Rebel. A face is a face for a reason, you are meant to cheer him.

Again....why? Belive it or not, Orton can get credible heat. Really. He can. The WWE just killed him when he won the championship. So please, please, tell me how, by bringing up Eddie, do they keep the memory alive?

Originally Posted by Shadow Again....why? Belive it or not, Orton can get credible heat. Really. He can. The WWE just killed him when he won the championship. So please, please, tell me how, by bringing up Eddie, do they keep the memory alive?

when they do it in a respectful way, such as with Mysterio, they are thanking him for all that he has done for the business by including him the program. But this is only if it's done with respect, not in the way with Orton, so they are helping keep his memory alive.

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by Vermaat when they do it in a respectful way, such as with Mysterio, they are thanking him for all that he has done for the business by including him the program. But this is only if it's done with respect, not in the way with Orton, so they are helping keep his memory alive.

But they didn't. They really didn't. Having him dedicate his royal rumble win to Eddie is ok. Really. I'm fine with that. The shit that happened afterwards....no.

But hey, I guess that's the type of reasoning I get for talking to the number one Cena mark.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Vermaat when they do it in a respectful way, such as with Mysterio, they are thanking him for all that he has done for the business by including him the program. But this is only if it's done with respect, not in the way with Orton, so they are helping keep his memory alive.

But, you see, Rey may be doing it for memorial purposes (storyline-wise), it has in turn lead to Orton bashing Eddie.

Had Rey not been told to call out for Eddie, Orton would never have bashed Eddie.

[KillerWolf]

Originally Posted by Vermaat when they do it in a respectful way, such as with Mysterio, they are thanking him for all that he has done for the business by including him the program. But this is only if it's done with respect, not in the way with Orton, so they are helping keep his memory alive.

FUCK YOU, VARMINT! WRESTLING IS FAKE! ORTON AND REY ARE ONE. DON'T YOU GET IT?! REY IS JUST AS GUILTY FOR THE THINGS THAT WERE SAID AS ORTON! REY IS A SCUMBAG FOR BEING A PART OF THIS FEUD WHICH HAS PISSED ON THE SANCTITY OF THE MEMORY OF EDDIE GUERRERO! YOU ARE FUCKING INCREDIBLE! HOW OLD ARE YOU, 10...11?! HOLY FUCK, I JUST REALIZED THAT YOU THINK THIS SHIT IS REAL!

not really bud

[Kalyx triaD]

Like it or not, the way this Vermaat kid is thinking is exactly how WWE is running it's business right now.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD Like it or not, the way this Vermaat kid is thinking is exactly how WWE is running it's business right now.

Yeah, it is. And the way they're running it, especially in this slump, is wrong.

[anandraval]

I used to enjoy cena way back in 2003. Suddenly as time passed I realised that this guy is not as cool as I thought he was. His in-ring ability is a major point. What do we get out of his match.
1. The start off-bang! bang! punches

2. next 10 minutes he gets beaten up


3. after the 10 minutes TADA !!! SUPERMAN suddenly builds up momentum with some awfully idle clotheslines, 5 knuckle shuffles (even Candice can move outta that move)
and wraps the match up with a stupid F-U where he seems to just lift his opponent and slams him delicately with all due care for the pin.

No way chain gang soldier, cena doesn't deserve a goldberg-like run nor does he deserve to represent the wwe as the world heavyweight champion.

God Bless your ignorant soul...

[Kalyx triaD]

Originally Posted by anandraval I used to enjoy cena way back in 2003. Suddenly as time passed I realised that this guy is not as cool as I thought he was. His in-ring ability is a major point. What do we get out of his match. 1. The start off-bang! bang! punches 2. next 10 minutes he gets beaten up 3. after the 10 minutes TADA !!! SUPERMAN suddenly builds up momentum with some awfully idle clotheslines, 5 knuckle shuffles (even Candice can move outta that move) and wraps the match up with a stupid F-U where he seems to just lift his opponent and slams him delicately with all due care for the pin. No way chain gang soldier, cena doesn't deserve a goldberg-like run nor does he deserve to represent the wwe as the world heavyweight champion. God Bless your ignorant soul...

Damn. Sounds like a The Rock match. Although Cena doesn't have anywhere near the charisma Sarge has. It is kinda silly to put down the 5-Nuckle Shuffle when it's born from the same silly-ass move types as the People's Elbow and the WORM.

Gotta admit, though; I like doing them all in the videogames.

[Xero]

Thing is, that's what started the entire Rey/Eddie thing. Sure, dedicating a match or using a move isn't bad, but this entire thing got off to a horrible start and has been horrible ever since.

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 Thing is, that's what started the entire Rey/Eddie thing. Sure, dedicating a match or using a move isn't bad, but this entire thing got off to a horrible start and has been horrible ever since.

Not Rey's fault that other guys took it too far

[Shadow]

Rey could've stopped it at any time dippy.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Shadow Rey could've stopped it at any time dippy.

Yeah, really. I'm sure that had Rey gone up to Vince and said that he didn't want to have any part in this he would have gone with it considering the circumstances.

[Kalyx triaD]

Vermaat, how long were you a fan of Cena? Since his Prototype days or more recently? Just asking out of curioustity.

[Kane Knight]

Rey's even worse. Rey's supposed to be his friend.

Orton is berating a coworker's memory.

Rey is a willing participant in the desecration of someone who was supposed to be his friend's memory

[KillerWolf]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight Rey's even worse. Rey's supposed to be his friend. Orton is berating a coworker's memory. Rey is a willing participant in the desecration of someone who was supposed to be his friend's memory

[Indifferent Clox]

never fucking mind

[Kane Knight]

Anything to keep from accepting reality, right?

I just want to say this, if people are being bad apples in the audience. How come its only happening when it involves John Cena? Is it merely a coincidense? If you say it is then this should be happening more often but it doesn’t, so its ridiculous. This only happens when John Cena is involved. Face it bro, its not a trend some people just don’t like John Cena at his current state right now.

This is because of baldie. This small group began showing during the angle/cena feud because Angle has not been playing an effective heel character. Thus, the "cool" guys began to boo Cena and it caught on so now everyone associates "Cena" with doing the wrong reaction. This is why it only happens when it involves John Cena. They know everyone has associated this with him and it would be harder to star the chant against someone else.

Mark Henry does not have any gas in the tank. He never did. He’s always injured, and you can’t focus anything on a guy that unpredictable, as far as health goes. I don’t like the undertaker but let him win this one.

Mark Henry deserves a chance. Look at him. He is huge and huge guys work as heels. Besides being Huge Mark Henry also has awesome mic skills, a lot of charisma and he is also fast for a huge guy in the ring. He has a lot of moves and in general, he works the BIG MAN MATCH very well. Of course he is not gonna fly around like a cruiserweight, he is a BIG MAN WRESTLER.

And Cena is being targeted for Women and Kids along with the males because wwe EXPANDED his demographic.

WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK PAYS THEIR PAYCHECKS!?!?! I can't believe that you just said that. WRESTLING COMPANIES CAN'T SURVIVE WITHOUT LISTENING TO THE FANS! The fans dictate who is going to get over and who isn't, that's not decided in the WWE creative room! You should just stop arguing this thread, because anyone that makes a statement like that doesn't know their asshole from their ear. Any business MUST listen to their customers and change the product accordingly. Without the customers/fans...you don't have a goddamn business! If you owned a restaraunt Vermaat, according to your logic..you wouldn't have to change the menu if the customers didn't like the food. FUCK EM right? Customers don't know how to run a profitable business, so they'll eat what ever the fuck I give them..right!?!

In a small manner they do. Of course in a small way you have to listen to the fans, but you can't go 100% by them. It will not be smart for business. Fans don't know the business. They do not understand the business. They will be wanting stuff that is NOT GOOD for the business because it looks "cool". So you can listen to them to a small extent, but to base your business around them would be foolish. You will end up with cards full of hardcore matches.

I'm willing to bet that alot of fans who don't watch the current crap WWE shells out, still watch wrestling DVD's or get their wrestling fix from another source. They didn't just stop cold turkey because wrestling "wasn't cool" anymore. Once again, you place the blame on the fans and not the WWE. The problem is the product, not the fans who stopped buying the product.

Yeah they aren't real wrestling fans. They watch DVDs? Right, so they moved on to the "cooler" new thing to the "cooler" new feds. They were never real fans of the WWE. The problem is not the product. The product is at it's best right now. Look at the quality of wrestlers now and in the stone cold era. In the stone cold era we had guys like mideon on and now everyone is a quality wrestler and we don't have crappy brawlers like Mideon anymore and if we do, they are not on T.V often.

And as far as a psychiatric institution, maybe you need to join your patients because YOU are the one resorting to personal insults.

Smaller venues? Less production work? Besides, if they're cutting bad wrestler,s why are there so many on the roster?

Yes, because a lot of the FAKE FANS left because they weren't true fans. WWE is simply restructuring to their new fanbase.

I am not sure what you mean by "less production work" but it seems the production is the same.

Yes, there are still some bad wrestlers on the roster, but a lot have been cut. WWE makes mistakes, sometimes they sign bad wrestlers, but they quickly get rid of them. For example look at The heart throbs and the dicks. They were crap, that's why WWE fired them.

WWE realized they have no potential so they fired them. They keep some bad wrestlers like Tomko because they know they have potential.

A shame these were in legit interviews, some of which could be seen on TV or heard on radio.

Of course the wrestlers aren't gonna say that they got lazy, they will blame bad vince for their own BAD ATTITUDES !!!

Yeah, it was a dumb move for Spike to not pay more for a product whose ratings were on a steady decline at the time.

It still gets very good ratings.

It really doesn't. You're still trying to insist that people will fold to peer pressure of a much cmaller group against something they're inclined to do. You can try and argue how other examples don't work, but the fact remains yours doesn't pan out.

It works because it is what happened. Wrestling is a weird world, odd things happen.

He's ignored this like 8 times. He has no argument.

I thought I adressed this, well I now adressed this.

In his argument, he admitted ratings were down, which basically was admitting his argument was flawed. He then tried to change the subject, but it's moot.

Yes ratings are a little down. That doesn't mean my argument is flawed, WWE is still a very sucesful company and until there is a competitor, WWE is leading a very good business, because FACE IT, they destroyed the competion and are not allowing anyone to compete.

FUCK YOU, VARMINT! WRESTLING IS FAKE! ORTON AND REY ARE ONE. DON'T YOU GET IT?! REY IS JUST AS GUILTY FOR THE THINGS THAT WERE SAID AS ORTON! REY IS A SCUMBAG FOR BEING A PART OF THIS FEUD WHICH HAS PISSED ON THE SANCTITY OF THE MEMORY OF EDDIE GUERRERO! YOU ARE FUCKING INCREDIBLE! HOW OLD ARE YOU, 10...11?! HOLY FUCK, I JUST REALIZED THAT YOU THINK THIS SHIT IS REAL!

lol !!! yes personal insults and a red font is going to make your point more correct. Buy a keyboard with caps locks first and GROW UP KID. Rey is not as guilty as Orton is. Orton chose to say a line that was WRONG. Rey never said such a line.

I don't think it is real, I know it is scripted.

Rey's even worse. Rey's supposed to be his friend. Orton is berating a coworker's memory. Rey is a willing participant in the desecration of someone who was supposed to be his friend's memory

Rey didn't desecrate anyone, he did not do a bad thing. Orton did. Sure Rey could have walked off for Orton doing it, but where would that put Rey? Out of a job and it would not punish Orton in any way. Rey just didn't do anything to try and protest this because he knew he can just get fired and he just went on being as respectful as he can and rey was respectful.

ok, calm. calm. ok. varmint, you are without a doubt the biggest DICKHEAD to ever post here. i think you deserve some sort of an award for your stupidity. at first, i thought, "maybe this guy is John Cena". but now i am wondering if you are in fact Vince McMahon.

More personal insults? Real mature there kid. And hey saying that I could be Vince McMahon, the most succesful businessman in wrestling, the promoter that dominated the business and destroyed his competion and is now running the ONLY wrestling show on prime time in the U.S is a compliment so thanks.

You know your trying to say everyone likes cena but 90% of the people here don't

Well people on websites like this are all part of the internet clique that think it's cool to go against things WWE does. The fact is, Cena is one of the best new stars in the WWE in a long time and no amount of "dislike" is going to change that. He is the future !!!

Anything to keep from accepting reality, right?

Yeah I guess that's the way you think

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Yeah they aren't real wrestling fans. They watch DVDs? Right, so they moved on to the "cooler" new thing to the "cooler" new feds. They were never real fans of the WWE. The problem is not the product. The product is at it's best right now. Look at the quality of wrestlers now and in the stone cold era. In the stone cold era we had guys like mideon on and now everyone is a quality wrestler and we don't have crappy brawlers like Mideon anymore and if we do, they are not on T.V often. And as far as a psychiatric institution, maybe you need to join your patients because YOU are the one resorting to personal insults.

So, what you're saying is that you're ONLY a real wrestling fan if you watch the WWE? What the fuck are you on? Seriously, that just proves that you've been brainwashed by the WWE. I'll be the first to admit that I've been a WWE mark since 1997, but Jesus Christ that's ridiculous.

Also, "crappy" wrestlers in the Attitude era?

Talking 98-2001 here...
Austin
Jericho
Triple H
Rock
Benoit
Jericho
Angle
Edge
Christian
Ken Shamrock
Owen Hart
Mick Foley

And that's only the upper-card!

lol !!! yes personal insults and a red font is going to make your point more correct. Buy a keyboard with caps locks first and GROW UP KID. Rey is not as guilty as Orton is. Orton chose to say a line that was WRONG. Rey never said such a line.

Guess what? Rey is at fault here as well. Why wouldn't Rey say no to this storyline? What is a good reason for Rey to stand around and be in an angle where his best friend, who recently passed away, is bashed to no end?

Forget the logic of the storyline, and let's talk about morals. Would you stand around if you knew someone was going to make fun of your dead best friend? Would you say "okay, yeah, it's fine if you say he went to hell and that he was worthless as long as I get to punch you in the face"? Because, if you would, you are a piece of shit.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Originally Posted by Vermaat This is because of baldie. This small group began showing during the angle/cena feud because Angle has not been playing an effective heel character. Thus, the "cool" guys began to boo Cena and it caught on so now everyone associates "Cena" with doing the wrong reaction. This is why it only happens when it involves John Cena. They know everyone has associated this with him and it would be harder to star the chant against someone else.

Is this when you started watching wrestling? Because the "boo's" started LONG before the Angle feud. Go and watch the Jericho feud for example. This has been brewing for a long time. And go fuck yourself with a weed wacker for blaming Angle.

Originally Posted by Vermaat In a small manner they do. Of course in a small way you have to listen to the fans, but you can't go 100% by them. It will not be smart for business. Fans don't know the business. They do not understand the business. They will be wanting stuff that is NOT GOOD for the business because it looks "cool". So you can listen to them to a small extent, but to base your business around them would be foolish.

What the fans like/dislike determines the success of a wrestling company...period!

FANS buy the products, buy the tickets, buy the merchandise, etc. Without that, there is NO BUSINESS. "Business decisions" (marketing, budget cuts, etc.) have to be done within the company, but the decision of who is over or not over is TOTALLY decided by the fans. That is what generates ANY BUSINESS period. Therefor, if you don't listen to the fans and alter your "business" according to what they want, you will lose money because they won't buy your product. And as many have posted, this is the trend because WWE is declining in the ratings and not making as much money as they once did. Maybe you are their advisor and have been listening to your theories...that would explain everything.

Originally Posted by Vermaat Yeah they aren't real wrestling fans. They watch DVDs? Right, so they moved on to the "cooler" new thing to the "cooler" new feds. They were never real fans of the WWE. The problem is not the product. The product is at it's best right now. Look at the quality of wrestlers now and in the stone cold era. In the stone cold era we had guys like mideon on and now everyone is a quality wrestler and we don't have crappy brawlers like Mideon anymore and if we do, they are not on T.V often.

Someone already touched on this you brainwashed WWE mark. There is wrestling life outside of WWE. You obviously were not watching wrestling back in the "Monday Night War" era, because that is when (arguably)wrestling was at an all time high as far as product is concerned. (if you think I'm basing this on personal opinion, you are wrong. This has been stated in numerous interviews and documentaries by people in the industry.)

Competion = a better product. No competion = WWE current crap.
This is obvious to everyone but you apparently.

Originally Posted by Vermaat And as far as a psychiatric institution, maybe you need to join your patients because YOU are the one resorting to personal insults.

Keep whining about the insults and keep ignoring anything relavent. That seems to work best for you in "Happy Land."

Originally Posted by Arnold HamNegger Is this when you started watching wrestling? Because the "boo's" started LONG before the Angle feud. Go and watch the Jericho feud for example. This has been brewing for a long time. And go fuck yourself with a weed wacker for blaming Angle. What the fans like/dislike determines the success of a wrestling company...period! FANS buy the products, buy the tickets, buy the merchandise, etc. Without that, there is NO BUSINESS. "Business decisions" (marketing, budget cuts, etc.) have to be done within the company, but the decision of who is over or not over is TOTALLY decided by the fans. That is what generates ANY BUSINESS period. Therefor, if you don't listen to the fans and alter your "business" according to what they want, you will lose money because they won't buy your product. And as many have posted, this is the trend because WWE is declining in the ratings and not making as much money as they once did. Maybe you are their advisor and have been listening to your theories...that would explain everything. Someone already touched on this you brainwashed WWE mark. There is wrestling life outside of WWE. You obviously were not watching wrestling back in the "Monday Night War" era, because that is when (arguably)wrestling was at an all time high as far as product is concerned. (if you think I'm basing this on personal opinion, you are wrong. This has been stated in numerous interviews and documentaries by people in the industry.) Competion = a better product. No competion = WWE current crap. This is obvious to everyone but you apparently. Keep whining about the insults and keep ignoring anything relavent. That seems to work best for you in "Happy Land."

1. Jericho was not really playing a proper heel and needed Eric Bischoff to get over, but even then, the boos were not really noticeable.

2. Fans do buy the product, but that doesn't mean that you have to do what they want. Fans don't know what they want, they want all sort of ridiculous things that would be stupid for the WWE to do. Fans want Stone Cold, but Stone Cold has been hard to work as of late and might want too much money and refuse to job to anyone. Does that mean WWE needs to bring Stone Cold because the fans want it? Like I said, you can cater to an extent, but sometimes fans want something that is not wise for the business. I already explained why WWE is not making as much money and it has nothing with listening less to the fans, as a matter of fact, WWE listens more to the fans, because if you look at the attitude era there were so many bad wrestlers and now the roster is mostly at the best of the best in the wrestling world.

Even if WWE is making less money that just means the market shrunk, nothing they can do if people decided to move on to something "cooler", it's just that the market of TRUE wrestling fans that want to watch wrestling has shrunk. WWE is still the most dominant and sucesful qwrestling company of all time.

3. I watched in the monday night war era and it was just as entertaining as it is today. Back then it was more hardcore wrestling and less technical wrestling then today, so it was different, but I can't say it was better then it is today. It is just a DIFFERENT FLAVOR !!!

Competition is good, but WWE still does fine and it is not the WWE's fault that the other companies like TNA are so crappy that they can't be proper competition. Any business looks to have a complete hand on the market, look at Microsoft. Competition is good for the consumer but bad for the business.

4. I am not whining, I'm just saying that personal insults show people's maturity level. Mature people will not resort to personal insults and the only thing that it shows when you do is that you have not graduated from the 7th grade yet.

[Goulet]

Originally Posted by Vermaat 1. Jericho was not really playing a proper heel and needed Eric Bischoff to get over, but even then, the boos were not really noticeable.

You are a retard. Chris Jericho needs NOBODY else to get over

Originally Posted by Vermaat 2. Fans do buy the product, but that doesn't mean that you have to do what they want. Fans don't know what they want, they want all sort of ridiculous things that would be stupid for the WWE to do. Fans want Stone Cold, but Stone Cold has been hard to work as of late and might want too much money and refuse to job to anyone. Does that mean WWE needs to bring Stone Cold because the fans want it? Like I said, you can cater to an extent, but sometimes fans want something that is not wise for the business. I already explained why WWE is not making as much money and it has nothing with listening less to the fans, as a matter of fact, WWE listens more to the fans, because if you look at the attitude era there were so many bad wrestlers and now the roster is mostly at the best of the best in the wrestling world. Even if WWE is making less money that just means the market shrunk, nothing they can do if people decided to move on to something "cooler", it's just that the market of TRUE wrestling fans that want to watch wrestling has shrunk. WWE is still the most dominant and sucesful qwrestling company of all time..

When you have the mindset that you know what the fans want better than they do then you become WCW in 2000, people didn't move on to something "cooler" they moved on to something less crappy. It's not cause wrestling wasn't "cool" anymore, it's because WWE isn't nearly as entertaining as it used to be!

Originally Posted by Vermaat 3. I watched in the monday night war era and it was just as entertaining as it is today. Back then it was more hardcore wrestling and less technical wrestling then today, so it was different, but I can't say it was better then it is today. It is just a DIFFERENT FLAVOR !!! Competition is good, but WWE still does fine and it is not the WWE's fault that the other companies like TNA are so crappy that they can't be proper competition. Any business looks to have a complete hand on the market, look at Microsoft. Competition is good for the consumer but bad for the business.

The flavor back then Chocolate, the flavor now Shit, if you prefer Shit to Chocolate that's your choice

Originally Posted by Vermaat 4. I am not whining, I'm just saying that personal insults show people's maturity level. Mature people will not resort to personal insults and the only thing that it shows when you do is that you have not graduated from the 7th grade yet.

You are insulting me personally with your lack of intelligence and logic

[¡Coñaso!]

Originally Posted by Vermaat 1. Jericho was not really playing a proper heel and needed Eric Bischoff to get over, but even then, the boos were not really noticeable.

I'm sorry but Chris Jericho does not need ANYBODY to get over.
It's Chris FUCKING Jericho. Not Mark Henry.
Mark Henry is useless, and your argument that he had shitty storylines and gimmicks well... that's true for EVERYBODY.
There was a point in time where Test was the shit! He had a nice story going with Triple H.
Then Test went on to do nothing but hang out with Albert...
Don't make it sound like Mark Henry is unfairly being treated.

And to consider John Cena a rapper is just wrong on every level.

[The One]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Competition is good, but WWE still does fine and it is not the WWE's fault that the other companies like TNA are so crappy that they can't be proper competition. Any business looks to have a complete hand on the market, look at Microsoft. Competition is good for the consumer but bad for the business.

TNA is so crappy...but if John Cena doesn't retain and Mark Henry doesn't win at WrestleMania (which by the way NEITHER will happen) then TNA will take over WWE?

Vermaat, you have made a lot of bitching noises about a lot of things. Being personally attacked and what not. Well sir it is kind of hard to attack your statements when they simply are not true. You talk about how everyone loves and cheers for John Cena and he is the most over person...blah blah blah...and yet when John Cena makes radio appearences and is asked about his mixed reaction he talks about how he DOES get a lot of boos. But even John Cena doesn't know what kinf of reaction he gets...is that right?

You made the same argument time after time, so and so isn't play a good enough heel to counter this super face John Cena. Does it not seem slightly more possible that Triple H, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, and Edge DO play a perfectly good heel (as they get Boos when facing ANYONE else) and maybe just MAYBE it's John Cena...or no, it was just a bad years for Cena wasn't it.

Now listen to the words I am saying, I personally think John Cena isn't entertaining (always thought he was boring...including his time as Prototype)...but I even I can say he has talent and certainly has the ability to connect with the fans. I don't place the blame on John Cena, I place it on WWE. They took this guy who was getting over being edgy and a heel and made him bland and a face. Then they stacked the deck against him every single week, and every single week he walked out on top. The Rock said it best in an interview a few years back, you can't book someone to be Superman...you have to be human to be relatable. Show John Cena in handicap matches...but have him lose. Beat the shit out of him and he gets sympathy reaction...or at least thats the way it would have been unfortunatly WWE has shoved this shit down our throats for so long most people don't even want to give Cena another chance.

Now on a personal note; you are one of the WORST debators I have ever seen. Hell a few years ago I had an entire thread devoted to people taking shots at Billy Gunn...BILLY FUCKING GUNN...you know that guy that nearly every smart hates, and I am not a strong debator. But when I argued I at least stuck with facts. You make shit up and pass it off as realitiy.

And now I have to ask the question I ask all trools and tools; why do you come back here? Why do you continue to interact with people who don't like you? This is the internet! Millions and millions of people are on the internet right now. Surly you can find someone who doesn't hate you to talk with. Hell if you like I will personally make you a "John Cena is Great" forum where you and some John Cena fans can sit around and talk about how great he is, how great of a rapper, how many cheers he gets...blah blah blah. Really...do you have an answer as to why you continue to interact with people who want NOTHING to do with you?

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Vermaat This is because of baldie. This small group began showing during the angle/cena feud because Angle has not been playing an effective heel character. Thus, the "cool" guys began to boo Cena and it caught on so now everyone associates "Cena" with doing the wrong reaction. This is why it only happens when it involves John Cena. They know everyone has associated this with him and it would be harder to star the chant against someone else.

Do you actually buy this shit?

Yes, because a lot of the FAKE FANS left because they weren't true fans. WWE is simply restructuring to their new fanbase.

Stop stepping away from your argument. The "true fans" bullshit is beside the point. You aregued the success and dominance of WWE, and you cannot ignore the fact that revenue is down, that they are drawing significantly smaller ratings than they were, that they can't fill the same number of venues as before. True fans or not, you admitted that, by measures of success, WWE are slipping.

Their "new fan base" is smaller. You admit that, and since that's the marker of success (ratings, cash, buyrates), you contradict your original claims.

Blame fake fans. Your statement is still false. To quote a Nazi horse, QED.

Yes, there are still some bad wrestlers on the roster, but a lot have been cut. WWE makes mistakes, sometimes they sign bad wrestlers, but they quickly get rid of them. For example look at The heart throbs and the dicks. They were crap, that's why WWE fired them.

If the only wrestlers who are cut are bad ones, why are people like Spanky and Polumbo rehired? In other words, you assert they released people because they were bad wrestlers. Why then go and hire bad wrestlers again?

WWE realized they have no potential so they fired them. They keep some bad wrestlers like Tomko because they know they have potential.

Caught in your own web of conspiracy and lies.

Of course the wrestlers aren't gonna say that they got lazy, they will blame bad vince for their own BAD ATTITUDES !!!

Again, you try and dodge the argument. They're not rumours, because they've been stated by the wrestlers. Whether or not your retarded brain thinks they're true, they're still not rumours. A rumour is something unsubstantiated. When the people involved comment on it, you can no longer hide behind "it's only rumours."

Honestly, why would Vince continue to keep on lazy workers though? I want to hear this conspiracy theory. Okay, so say they're lazy and nobody told them to stop flying, or in the case of folks like Helms, stop using his finisher. You're saying that Vince is okay with that, that he's fine with his workers being lazy, not doing the moves they're famous for, and disappointing the fans with "lazy" matches?

Your argument would require that the entire management team be a group of idiots anyway, and it contradicts your notion that they fire the bad wrestlers, since they keep hiring back these lazy bastards.

It still gets very good ratings.

Beside the point. When ratings are steadily going down, you'd have to be stupid to assume that paying more money for it is a good idea, especially when the desire for wrestling was in an apparent decline.

Instead, WWE took a CUT to get on USA. And yes, ratings are more stable now

It works because it is what happened. Wrestling is a weird world, odd things happen.

You have no way to back this statement up.

And yes. Weird things happen in wrestling. They're called storylines and matches. The audience is not some elaborate soap opera complete unto itself.

Yes ratings are a little down. That doesn't mean my argument is flawed, WWE is still a very sucesful company and until there is a competitor, WWE is leading a very good business, because FACE IT, they destroyed the competion and are not allowing anyone to compete.

Ratings went from 6-8 down to 3-4.

If you think this is a little down, you either have no grasp of mathematics or are legitimately retarded.

They're not leading a good business. FACE IT. ECW was destroyed by Heyman, and WCW was destroyed by the owners as well. Hell, the former is even brought up right on at least one of WWE's ECW DVDs. Come on, are you going to call WWE liars?

Rey didn't desecrate anyone, he did not do a bad thing. Orton did.

It's funny you say this right after you say you know wrestling is scripted.

Rey agreed to a storyline which totally drags Eddie through the mud, one in which not only does Orton attack him, but in which his character fails to defend his honor. Rey knew all this, and went along with it for the paycheck. He seriously deserves to burn in Hell for letting this shit go on.

Well people on websites like this are all part of the internet clique that think it's cool to go against things WWE does. The fact is, Cena is one of the best new stars in the WWE in a long time and no amount of "dislike" is going to change that. He is the future !!!

It's funny, because all the evidence flies right in the face of your claims.

[Xero]

You know, just saying things that make you think you look like you know what you're talking about doesn't mean we don't know you're full of shit.

You're just pulling shit out of your ass now.

[¡Coñaso!]

is is because of baldie. This small group began showing during the angle/cena feud because Angle has not been playing an effective heel character. Thus, the "cool" guys began to boo Cena and it caught on so now everyone associates "Cena" with doing the wrong reaction. This is why it only happens when it involves John Cena. They know everyone has associated this with him and it would be harder to star the chant against someone else.

Are you aware that crowd changes? They do wrestle in different arenas. Your aware of that right?
You know, "Welcome to Raw, where we're live from Chicago, Illinoise" and then next week, you hear, "Welcome to Raw, where we're live from Albequerqui, New Mexico".
Its DIFFERENT! Different people, different parts of the country, different!

Mark Henry deserves a chance. Look at him. He is huge and huge guys work as heels. Besides being Huge Mark Henry also has awesome mic skills, a lot of charisma and he is also fast for a huge guy in the ring. He has a lot of moves and in general, he works the BIG MAN MATCH very well.

He doesn't deserve a chance. He's been given a chance ever since he came here in what? '96? Sure he's big but that makes him a heel? Alright pal, now you've crossed the line, now your stereotyping and your racist. Because he's black he's a a big bad heel!!?
He has no mic skills (which would explain Melina), He has no charisma (which would explain Melina) He is not fast for his size, and his moves suck, his matches are boring.
Are you on drugs?

And Cena is being targeted for Women and Kids along with the males because wwe EXPANDED his demographic.

No he's not! Look for the definition of "targeted" he's not being TARGETED for that. THey don't need to target him for that. I mean if you like him that's okay (well not really, pussy),
But he's not being targeted for you. It's like a boy that has a barbie, if he has one, cool, Matel ahs amde thier money, but its not for him.

So, what you're saying is that you're ONLY a real wrestling fan if you watch the WWE? What the fuck are you on? Seriously, that just proves that you've been brainwashed by the WWE. I'll be the first to admit that I've been a WWE mark since 1997, but Jesus Christ that's ridiculous.

Pretty much, how can you be a fan of wrestling if you don't want a best promotion? WWE is where most of the best wrestlers are. Cena, Batista, Benjamin, Mysterio, Angle etc etc. You can't be a genuine wrestling fan and not watch the best.

For an example, you can't say that you're a car fan and refuse to buy cars from the best companies like GM and Ford and Toyota and drive a Yougo.

Also, "crappy" wrestlers in the Attitude era?

There were good wrestlers, but overall, there were more bad wrestlers on the roster then today.

1. Rey did not want to be fired.
2. Rey himself did not do anything evil.

Are you aware that crowd changes? They do wrestle in different arenas. Your aware of that right? You know, "Welcome to Raw, where we're live from Chicago, Illinoise" and then next week, you hear, "Welcome to Raw, where we're live from Albequerqui, New Mexico". Its DIFFERENT! Different people, different parts of the country, different!

Yes the crowd changes, but on the whole, it's one WHOLE. The fans go and watch at home and catch on. They see it on their T.V and go and do it, in that way all the fans are really one and that is what I meant, I meant the fans as a WHOLE SET UNIT.

He doesn't deserve a chance. He's been given a chance ever since he came here in what? '96? Sure he's big but that makes him a heel? Alright pal, now you've crossed the line, now your stereotyping and your racist. Because he's black he's a a big bad heel!!? He has no mic skills (which would explain Melina), He has no charisma (which would explain Melina) He is not fast for his size, and his moves suck, his matches are boring. Are you on drugs?

A lot of time has been wasted with Mark Henry like when they sent him to OVW and like when they had that stupid storyline with Mae Young. WWE wasted a lot of time with him and that is why he seems bad to you when really he is great. And I NEVER said that he is a good heel because he is black. The only racist here is you because that association came in YOUR head and you are the one that just started talking about it when I didn't so maybe you should check yourself next time!

The only thing I said was that he was a good heel because is big. That is true. Big guys make good heels because it's easier to see a big guy as a big monster then a small guy because big guys have credibility just for being big and make better heels. And I do think he is pretty fast and innovative. Did you see the way he reversed Mysterio's pin into his finisher? That's INNOVATIVE. How about his SPLASH recently on the Undertaker. That's innovative, I haven't seen a big guy do something like that. He has tons of charisma, he is great on the microphone, I don't see how you can not see that. Melina was added to add heat to Batista being out.

And as far as being targeted, nice way to hide a personal insult there but it didn't work. It's funny how you people need to resort to personal insults to support your points but guess hat all it really shows is your maturity level or lack of thereforth. Of course Cena is being targeted for "me" as a male because rap music is most popular with males (and people in general today) and it is a FUNDAMENTAL part of culture, so yeah that targers him to me and you and it is for all.

[Goulet]

Nobody will take you seriously when you think Mark Henry is anything more than a fat sack of shit who is only getting these opportunities because Vince McMahon fucked up and signed him to a 10 year contract and he doesn't want to waste his money on having to buy Henry out... Henry will be gone shortly after WM when his contract expires... oh... and please kill yourself now... thank you

[Xero]

1. Rey did not want to be fired. 2. Rey himself did not do anything evil.

Answer my question. Would you stand around and let someone bash your dead best friend? Rey is an asshole for going along with it, whether it meant being fired or not.

You know, you really amaze me. No one, and I mean NO ONE could be as stupid as you. If I had to guess, you were someone from here who LC and/or Funky don't want to give away. If I had to say, I'd have to say Heyman.

[Goulet]

You must spread some BAD Reputation around before giving it to Vermaat again.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 Answer my question. Would you stand around and let someone bash your dead best friend? Rey is an asshole for going along with it, whether it meant being fired or not. You know, you really amaze me. No one, and I mean NO ONE could be as stupid as you. If I had to guess, you were someone from here who LC and/or Funky don't want to give away. If I had to say, I'd have to say Heyman.

This isn't Heyman's style.

I've got to say that much. If it's him, my hat goes off to him for creating something above and beyond his normal, but seriously. This so doesn't reek of him.

In terms of whether or not he'd let someone bash his best friend...

...I have no respect for someone who would not only DO that, but sign on to play a part in it. It's one thing to tolerate someone berating your dead friend, it's another entirely to tolerate it on a national scale, and then on another level entirely to stand up and sign on.

Especially if you're Mysterio. Mysterio wouldn't be fired for this. He's got too much star power to risk going to TNA. Say what you want about the quality of TNA, but this is one guy who could still draw the attention of people if there was even a CHANCE he could go over there. He's the only Cruiser (Even though he's no longer one) who has job security for certain.