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Old 10-20-2006, 07:18 AM   #1
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Originally Posted by Destor
The music is definitely going to take some getting used. Though I was having a herd time hearing it over the insane pop, so I dunno, I have to hear it again. It's just that Kurt's WWE music was so perfect, change always sucks...
Yeah, to be honest, I didn't even really dig the remix they used starting when he was drafted to ECW while he was still in the WWE.
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Old 10-20-2006, 05:24 AM   #2
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You guys obviously haven't seen the TWC thing. 4 hours of Joe's best matches will win you over.
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Old 10-20-2006, 05:26 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by TL
You guys obviously haven't seen the TWC thing. 4 hours of Joe's best matches will win you over.
Many wrestlers could have a video produced with 4 hours of great matches, but couldn't carry "just about anyone" to a great match.
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Old 10-20-2006, 05:25 AM   #4
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Name some of the matches, I have seen A LOT of his indy work. (You could post a link if you wanted, but I would still like to see a short list of his opponents.)
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Old 10-20-2006, 05:30 AM   #5
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Thing is some of the opponents I can't remember the names of, cause I rarely watch indy stuff, however the one I can pick out was Joe Vs Aj Styles, which is actually the first match I saw of Joe's. Also Joe Vs CM Punk. I admit those other two have enough talent to work with, but there were others. I think the way he gets the crowd going can really get you into a match.
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Old 10-20-2006, 05:39 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
Thing is some of the opponents I can't remember the names of, cause I rarely watch indy stuff, however the one I can pick out was Joe Vs Aj Styles, which is actually the first match I saw of Joe's. Also Joe Vs CM Punk. I admit those other two have enough talent to work with, but there were others. I think the way he gets the crowd going can really get you into a match.
Actually, no, it really can't get me into a match.
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Old 10-20-2006, 05:53 AM   #7
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I don't think there's gonna be a match between these 2 yet, this is a good way to build a feud straight off the bat.

But they have different matches and angles to deal with at the next PPV

I keep hearing that Angle's first match proper would be against Christian

Have Sting win the title or Jarrett retain (it doesn't really matter), Joe feud with the winner over it, hopefully makes Jarrett Job (who can then move to a lower level feud with Eric Young)

Then have Joe/Angle title match

That who thing if booked right could last 4 months before the Joe/Angle match happens
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:04 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Youell
I don't think there's gonna be a match between these 2 yet, this is a good way to build a feud straight off the bat.

But they have different matches and angles to deal with at the next PPV

I keep hearing that Angle's first match proper would be against Christian

Have Sting win the title or Jarrett retain (it doesn't really matter), Joe feud with the winner over it, hopefully makes Jarrett Job (who can then move to a lower level feud with Eric Young)

Then have Joe/Angle title match

That who thing if booked right could last 4 months before the Joe/Angle match happens
Angle said in his press conference that his first feud will be Joe.
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:30 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Avenger
Angle said in his press conference that his first feud will be Joe.
D'oh!

Well fuck TNA then, just blow out your best feud straight away
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Old 10-20-2006, 05:55 AM   #10
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That segment was indeed awesome. I just hope they can run with it.
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:03 AM   #11
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OK Joe is not one of the best in the world. He just isn't.

He has bags of talent but he can't carry "just about anyone" to a five star match.
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:31 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avenger
OK Joe is not one of the best in the world. He just isn't.

He has bags of talent but he can't carry "just about anyone" to a five star match.
He can carry work with just about anyone and bring out a better performance than can be expected
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Old 10-20-2006, 01:00 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Dave Youell
He can carry work with just about anyone and bring out a better performance than can be expected
I do agree that Joe is awesome.
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:23 AM   #14
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Pepsi man, I'm not surprised you disagree with me as you always seem to. Even if you're obviously wrong. The crowd really can make a match, and the crowd seems to get behind Joe all the time, so he must be doign something right don't you think? Or are you to stubborn to realise this?
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
Pepsi man, I'm not surprised you disagree with me as you always seem to. Even if you're obviously wrong. The crowd really can make a match, and the crowd seems to get behind Joe all the time, so he must be doign something right don't you think? Or are you to stubborn to realise this?
The crowd seemed to get behind Monty Brown all the time...
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:29 AM   #16
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HOYT HOYT HOYT HOYT!
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:33 AM   #17
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^ Thanks Dave, that's what I was saying. Also he moves quicker around the ring than I would've thought for a guy like him.

And btw pepsi man you can't compare Brown and Joe, you just can't. Joe is far better. TNA fans will chant for anything, except Jarrett.
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:39 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by TL
^ Thanks Dave, that's what I was saying. Also he moves quicker around the ring than I would've thought for a guy like him.

And btw pepsi man you can't compare Brown and Joe, you just can't. Joe is far better. TNA fans will chant for anything, except Jarrett.
My point exactly.
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:45 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Pepsi Man
My point exactly.

I see where you're coming from, you are only looking at the stuff he's done in TNA. The best matches i've seen of him weren't just from TNA, every different crowd he wrestled to went mad for him.
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:34 AM   #20
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Yea and pit your newest big name against your young rising star. Its kinda hard for Angle to put Joe over by just beating him, which is what will happen since hes their new savior.
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:35 AM   #21
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I can just imagine how great Joe V Angle will be, can't get the thought out of my head. Hope the writers don't fuck it up and also hope they do it before Angle gets injured.
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:42 AM   #22
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I hope they design and introduce a new title belt before anyone worth watching wins it. Am I the only one who think that thing looks like a glorified belt buckle?
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:54 AM   #23
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Joe can wrestle but that only gets you so far in wrestling these days, as ironic as that is. its just that the crowds hes performed in front of mark for actual in ring talent, which is a good thing but not a trait of the mainstream. Angle could give him a huge rub tho.
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:56 AM   #24
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Ya know it's funny how you guys under-rate Joe, but that's just your opinion at the end of the day. Just because Joe might not suit WWE doesn't mean he hasn't got talent or charisma. I just think he would be toned down so much in WWE, like down to Umaga's level, and that's why the WWE crowd wouldn't get behind him, they wouldn't see the real Joe.
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Old 10-20-2006, 07:00 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
Ya know it's funny how you guys under-rate Joe, but that's just your opinion at the end of the day. Just because Joe might not suit WWE doesn't mean he hasn't got talent or charisma. I just think he would be watered down so much in WWE, like down to Umaga's level, and that's why the WWE crowd wouldn't get behind him, they wouldn't see the real Joe.
Can Joe draw the money of his peers in the WWE? I don't think so. And all the ring talent in the world (which I feel he has a great deal of) can not help him there. Ask Bret Hart.

And hey, can you do me a favor? Don't condesend to people just becuase they aren't Joe marks.



Thanks.
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Old 10-20-2006, 07:27 AM   #26
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Can Joe draw the money of his peers in the WWE? I don't think so. And all the ring talent in the world (which I feel he has a great deal of) can not help him there. Ask Bret
This is totally irrelevent.

You can't compare Samoa Joe in temrs of money to guys in the WWE.

People like HBK and HHH may draw ten fold what Samoa Joe does... However, they also have the audience to do so.

WWE has been around forever. This includes when wrestling was popular. THey have had time to build a market.

TNA and ROH have come around during what is easily a dark period for wrestling.

You can't argue that if Joe were that great, they'd be doing WWE sales, because it's just not realistic. Just like it's not realistic to say WWE's success can be attributed to one or two men.

You have to look at Joe in relation to the place of TNA/ROH. He is going GREAT there in terms of drawing people in, and selling merchandise.

Of course, people in WWE will still outdraw and outsell him because they are a bigger company with a bigger reach.

It's also extremely difficult to get even the most devout wrestling fans to watch a new product. I have tried to get people who watch WWE every week and who love good wrestling to spend ten bucks on an ROH ticket, but they won't. I've meant to watch TNA more, but I haven't. It's not in my routine. It's not because of the quality of the product, it's just because I haven't got around to it. It hasn't even been a year since I got into ROH.

I'm rambling a bit... But the point I'm trying to make is that it's not fair to compare an ROH/TNA guy to WWE guys in terms of drawing, when one business is years ahead in both financial and fan build up.
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Old 10-20-2006, 08:33 AM   #27
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This is totally irrelevent.

You can't compare Samoa Joe in temrs of money to guys in the WWE.

People like HBK and HHH may draw ten fold what Samoa Joe does... However, they also have the audience to do so.

WWE has been around forever. This includes when wrestling was popular. THey have had time to build a market.

TNA and ROH have come around during what is easily a dark period for wrestling.

You can't argue that if Joe were that great, they'd be doing WWE sales, because it's just not realistic. Just like it's not realistic to say WWE's success can be attributed to one or two men.

You have to look at Joe in relation to the place of TNA/ROH. He is going GREAT there in terms of drawing people in, and selling merchandise.

Of course, people in WWE will still outdraw and outsell him because they are a bigger company with a bigger reach.

It's also extremely difficult to get even the most devout wrestling fans to watch a new product. I have tried to get people who watch WWE every week and who love good wrestling to spend ten bucks on an ROH ticket, but they won't. I've meant to watch TNA more, but I haven't. It's not in my routine. It's not because of the quality of the product, it's just because I haven't got around to it. It hasn't even been a year since I got into ROH.

I'm rambling a bit... But the point I'm trying to make is that it's not fair to compare an ROH/TNA guy to WWE guys in terms of drawing, when one business is years ahead in both financial and fan build up.
Sorry you had to on that tangent, but that's not what I was saying. If Joe was THERE could he draw that amount of money? If Joe was playing at that level could/would he still be a draw? I don't think so. Has done great on the indy circut? For sure. Has he done good for TNA? Most likely. But can he translate to BIG money? I, personally, don't think so.

But ftr, If TNA is wanting to play with the big dogs they should be held to the same standerds.

Anywho I like to compair Joe to Wahoo McDaniel, their styles are similar, their looks are similar, and I hold in the same high asteem. But niether of are going to a make anyone wealthy. Joe will put on great matches, Joe will have wrestled all the best names and the title of having their best matches, he will have quite the cult following, make a few small time promoters a dime, but when it's all said and done he will most likely be the guy who passed the tourch to the true great, and not as that great himself. Now tha's just specualtion on my part, but I'd believe that to Joe's future.

If Joe was in the WWE, do you really believe he could be a JBL level draw? Let alone a Triple or Rey Mysterio draw? I cant see it. Yes, in small time wrestling he is doing FANTASTIC. I am a Joe fan don't get me wrong, he just not deserving of the accolades that he was given.

There is little no interest in the product right now, just certian charectors. And in light of that Joe has wisely appealed to the (very) few fans who want a wrestling product. But most people aren't wanting wrestling, they are wanting Stone Cold or The Rock. People...not the product. Does Joe really have this alledged charisma to get to that level? No. Definatly not.

Joe is great athlete and a great worker, but he does not tranlate to a wide array of people. Sure he works great for these select few, who like a certain type of product, but the masses? I certantly don't think so.
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Old 10-20-2006, 07:43 AM   #28
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Can Joe draw the money of his peers in the WWE? I don't think so. And all the ring talent in the world (which I feel he has a great deal of) can not help him there. Ask Bret Hart.

And hey, can you do me a favor? Don't condesend to people just becuase they aren't Joe marks.



Thanks.

Did you read my point where I was saying' just because Joe doesn't suit WWE doesn't mean he isn't as good as I think?'...slightly re-worded version but basically the samething. And I never condescended anyone. Show me where you think I did.
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Old 10-20-2006, 07:03 AM   #29
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Ya know it's funny how you guys under-rate Joe, but that's just your opinion at the end of the day.
While that's true, it's a two-way street.
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Old 10-20-2006, 07:02 AM   #30
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Umagas trash. Joe is great no doubt, I dont think hes underrated tho. Joe would get his time in the ring, his time on screen and prob a decent push off the bat to get over. If his charisma and level of talent is what you say it is, he wouldn't have much of a problem.
Guys like RVD and Benoit got over based on previous reputation in other promotions and their in ring ability, so if hes the same there shouldnt be much of a problem.

With that being said, its not right to say "Joe wouldnt work in WWE cuz they suck" If hes so great and can win over any crowd in the ring, he should be able to draw, which he wouldnt.
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Old 10-20-2006, 07:46 AM   #31
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Umagas trash. Joe is great no doubt, I dont think hes underrated tho. Joe would get his time in the ring, his time on screen and prob a decent push off the bat to get over. If his charisma and level of talent is what you say it is, he wouldn't have much of a problem.
Guys like RVD and Benoit got over based on previous reputation in other promotions and their in ring ability, so if hes the same there shouldnt be much of a problem.

With that being said, its not right to say "Joe wouldnt work in WWE cuz they suck" If hes so great and can win over any crowd in the ring, he should be able to draw, which he wouldnt.

If they let him be who he really is then yes, he could draw. But none of us know for sure, it's all just opinion.
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Old 10-20-2006, 07:06 AM   #32
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Why are we not talking about that head-butt? It was unreal.
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Old 10-20-2006, 07:08 AM   #33
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Why are we not talking about that head-butt? It was unreal.
Meh, it was a regular Kurt Angle move during his brief ECW tenure.
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Old 10-20-2006, 07:09 AM   #34
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Meh, it was a regular Kurt Angle move during his brief ECW tenure.
The difference is it was a Potato head butt.
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Old 10-20-2006, 07:10 AM   #35
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Meh, it was a regular Kurt Angle move during his brief ECW tenure.
Perhaps, but he busted Joe open. People aren't supposed to bust Samons open with head-butts.
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Old 10-20-2006, 07:11 AM   #36
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Perhaps, but he busted Joe open. People aren't supposed to bust Samons open with head-butts.
Perhaps years of watching pro wrestling has desensitized me.
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Old 10-20-2006, 07:08 AM   #37
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Why are we not talking about that head-butt? It was unreal.
Fuck'n A right. That was one stiff head-butt. Sweetness. I hope Kurt is ready to work a stiff match, cause I'm sure Joe is wanting to give a receipt.
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Old 10-20-2006, 07:21 AM   #38
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New entrance themes always take a while to grow. I think its because you associate so much with them and suddenly its different. Even his original WWE music was strange until he got over, because it was formerly the Patriots music and Sgt. Slaughters for a while too.
The only entrance them changes I really can remember growing to like was the Undertakers new theme in 98, HHH's motorhead theme in 2000, and even Goldbergs WWE theme. I hated all of them at first but after I had associated them with some memories it certainly took
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Old 10-20-2006, 07:58 AM   #39
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yesssss this one one of the greatest moments in wrestling people.i damn near jump out of my skin the first second i heard kurt angle music.this is electrifyin at its finest
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Old 10-20-2006, 08:00 AM   #40
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I think percentage wise for the size of the companies they represent, Joe can draw more than HHH/HBK in the example given.

But it would never work in a real enviroment, so it's not worth discussing.

Have to agree why the head butt isn't being discussed more.

As for people saying that Angle is going to be in for a brutal match, I'd like to raise something about Joe, the guy is such a fucking fantastic worker because he 'works' I can't think of anyone that's he's seriously injured, and the only injuries i've heard him causing are bumps, bruises and gashes.

He's not even the stiffest worker in that company (Senshi is just dangerous, but that's another discussion), so yes this will be stiff, but no worse than a Benoit/Regal match in terms of potential outcome/injuries.

My proposed finish for this match would be a time limit draw, saves both guys face, it would be awesome and it doesn't give us a shitty dq finish. Either that or an ironman match with a draw finish.

TNA can't afford to have either man job IMO
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