In defense of Hogan.

[Zeeboe]

Originally Posted by FourFifty Okay Mr. Venis, IF THAT'S YOUR REAL NAME, defend Hogan for the last few years. He has lost ONE major match, when there were a few people who could have made an impact if they would have gotten a rub from him. HBK is still going stong and yet he did the job to Hogan, Randy Orton would have been able to become a solid main eventer, I don't even need to mention Hassan, and he thinks he's still worth half the gate (as per WM23). Defend Hogan in his WCW days where he wouldn't lose a match for the sake of the company. Trash at the Beach 2000 for fuck's sake! Defend Hogan bringing The Warrior into WCW just so he could beat him. Defend Hogan when he was holding down Booker T and Rey. Let's hear you defend Hogan on his claims that he was a better wrestler than Ric Flair.

Hulk Hogan never brought the Warrior in just to beat him. That is just an internet smark myth. Did you ever see the Warrior DVD? That topic was brought up.

And I thought I read a few years ago that the Bash at the Beach thing was a work. WCW was trying to appeal to the Internet fan base and look what happened to WCW. Hogan haters can blame Hogan all they want for the death of WCW but the fact of the matter is from 1994 to 2000, Hogan put asses in the seats and money in the bank for WCW. It was when Russo came along and when Bischoff left that WCW began to die.

And with all due respect to guys like Booker T, Rey and the other guys who you all claim Hogan held down....none of those guys could get seventy-five people in a building and have them standing and cheering for ten minutes when they came out even if they paid them.

Hulk Hogan could has gotten people to do that for free.

I know some of you think Hogan's book is BS...but really....who should I believe? Someone who is actually in the wrestling business or a bunch of guys on their parent's computers who are not in the wrestling business? Common knowledge says listen to the guys who are actually in the business.

[FourFifty]

Originally Posted by Val Venis I know some of you think Hogan's book is BS...but really....who should I believe? Someone who is actually in the wrestling business or a bunch of guys on their parent's computers who are not in the wrestling business? Common knowledge says listen to the guys who are actually in the business.

..............................Do you even read what you type?

Hogan is the biggest self promoter in the industry, and you are going to take a ghost written book as legit fact?



















Can I buy some pot from you?

[Zeeboe]

Originally Posted by FourFifty ..............................Do you even read what you type? Hogan is the biggest self promoter in the industry, and you are going to take a ghost written book as legit fact?

Where's the proof? See, you guys are the ones who are full of it. You say this random stuff that you wish was true and yet you have no proof for it.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Val Venis Where's the proof? See, you guys are the ones who are full of it. You say this random stuff that you wish was true and yet you have no proof for it.

Where's your proof? I mean, besides Hogan's own words, which have been demonstrated to change over time.....

[FourFifty]

Originally Posted by Val Venis Where's the proof? See, you guys are the ones who are full of it. You say this random stuff that you wish was true and yet you have no proof for it.

If Hogan's book is totally legit, then read Ric Flair's book and read Eric Bichoff's book.

[Kane Knight]

Are you calling the Knight a liar? Well let me tell you something, brother! It doesn't matter what you think! The Knight's gonna take his size 15 4E shoe, shine it up reeeeeeeeeal nice, turn that sumbitch sideways, and stick it straight up your candy ass! John Wayne's not dead, he's frozen. And when we find a cure for cancer, we're gonna thaw out the Duke, and he's gonna be pretty pissed off! You know why? Ever taken a cold shower? Well multiply that by about 15 million times, that's how pissed off the Duke's gonna be....

[Kane Knight]

I was thinking Savage. Backlund doesn't reach that level of crazy, and Angle is too new a player.

[Theo Dious]

That was my thought too. Backlund my try to drink human blood substitute, but that's just eccentric. Angle MAY be putting up some kind of act, we don't know yet. Savage suffers from extreme paranoid delusions and cut a rap album in an attempt to punk out Hogan. Honestly, if he would ever legally change his name to "SAVAGE," he might be able to challenge Warrior for the title.

Can I also suggest that the Honky Tonk Man needs to be in the top 5?

[Kane Knight]

Honky Tonk man might even beat out Hogan, but I ain't followed his shennanigans.

I mean, you can't follow wrestling without reading about Hogan or Warrior. It's like going on TPWW. Odds are, you're going to trip over Fuky's dick, or if not his, DMI's.

Honky Tonk seems pretty crazy when he comes up. But with less of a frequency of antics reported....Well, we'll never know.

[Theo Dious]

Yeah, plus lately he's been playing nice-nice with WWE. He really was like Warrior Jr. there for a while though. Except with grammar and punctuation.

[Theo Dious]

So wait, you mean I should listen to everything that George Bush says, because he's in the government and I'm not?

[Zeeboe]

Originally Posted by DarthTedious So wait, you mean I should listen to everything that George Bush says, because he's in the government and I'm not?

No, because others in the goverment disagree with him. If you guys can find me some sources from people who are actually in the business that say Hogan never had the idea to be a heel or that someone else was using theme music to come out to the ring long before Hogan had the idea or that promoters and wrestlers were selling wrestling related merchandise before Hogan and McMahon then post it. Or if there are any books written by people in the business that beg to differ with Hogan then give me a title.

Originally Posted by DarthTedious Oh and if the BATB thing was a work, howcome there were lawsuits over it?

I never said I believed that the Bash at the Beach thing was work. I just said I read that it was and I believe it was actually Russo who said it.

And I watched the clip recently on you tube and it just seemed like a work to me based on how the announcers were acting. Here, judge for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGW2IaLqNic

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by Val Venis I just said I read that it was and I believe it was actually Russo who said it.

...do I even have to point out the flaw here?

[M-A-G]

Originally Posted by Val Venis I never said I believed that the Bash at the Beach thing was work. I just said I read that it was and I believe it was actually Russo who said it. And I watched the clip recently on you tube and it just seemed like a work to me based on how the announcers were acting. Here, judge for yourself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGW2IaLqNic

People don't go to court over phony lawsuits considering the lawyers involved could be disbarred (in fairness, the lawyers would have to be oblivious to the fact that they're being worked, too). What started as a work ended up being a lawsuit when Hogan got all pissy with what Russo said at Bash at the Beach when he started pouring on the insults.

[Theo Dious]

Oh and if the BATB thing was a work, howcome there were lawsuits over it?

[DAMN iNATOR]

Originally Posted by DarthTedious Oh and if the BATB thing was a work, howcome there were lawsuits over it?

And how come Wikipedia has this to say about the incident on Hogan’s page?:

[Dan Rather]And I quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia at Bash at the Beach 2000, Hogan was involved in a very controversial, real-life incident with Russo. Hogan was scheduled to wrestle Jeff Jarrett for the WCW World Heavyweight Championship. Hogan felt that he should win because he suspected Russo wasn't going to use him in any future storylines. At that time Hogan still had several months left on his contract and was obligated to appear at more Pay-Per-Views, so he invoked the clause in his contract that gave him creative control over all the finishes of his matches. According to Hogan, it was the only time he ever used that clause in his tenure with WCW. Russo was furious at Hogan because he did not think that Hogan should be the champion. Unbeknownst to Hogan, Russo told Jarrett to lie down in the middle of the ring and asked Hogan to pin him straight away. A visibly confused Hogan complied with a foot on Jarrett's chest after getting on the microphone and telling Russo "That's why this company is in the damn shape it's in, because of bullshit like this!" Russo responded by coming out and saying that "from day one, that I've been in WCW, I've done nothing... nothing... but deal with the bullshit of the politics behind that curtain" and that since Hogan refused to job to Jarrett, a new WCW World Heavyweight Championship would be created, setting the stage for a title match between Booker T and Jeff Jarrett later that night.

Answer THAT, BITCH!

[Theo Dious]

Dude, fucking Hogan said it himself on some TV show I saw, might have been Biography. Basically Hogan was saying that they were discussing how to revitalize the program and Bischoff said to Hogan "How about we have you be a bad guy?" and Hogan said that he felt his blood go cold at the idea. The man can't even keep his own damn stories straight.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by DarthTedious Dude, fucking Hogan said it himself on some TV show I saw, might have been Biography. Basically Hogan was saying that they were discussing how to revitalize the program and Bischoff said to Hogan "How about we have you be a bad guy?" and Hogan said that he felt his blood go cold at the idea. The man can't even keep his own damn stories straight.

Yup. I remember that, too.

I love the whole "WCW was trying to please the smarks and look where it ended up."

Yeah, Vince is trying to be an entertainment mogul, and look where he's ended up. Apparently, please the smarks or casuals, you draw about the same ratings, Val.

[Goulet]

Hulk Hogan is MAKE IT OR BREAK IT for WWE

[M-A-G]

It was all a work. Russo and Hogan hatched a scheme for the World Championship picture between themselves. Jarrett was the one out of the loop. In an attempt to appeal the Internet crowd (you know, because that's what every wrestling fan does 24/7: scour the Internet for backstage news) Russo played off of Hogan's creative control clause and created the scenario at Bash at the Beach. All of this done with the excuse to phase Hogan out for a while and bring him back later to feud with the champion at that time with the logic being that no one had beaten him for his title (in storyline terms). The problem was that Russo went a little too far with the speech later that night and Hogan was upset with some of the things he said and stormed out of the building. He later sued for character defamation. It was a very real lawsuit considering Hogan didn't want to work for TNA while Russo was on the payroll (to be fair, this might just be an excuse) and the fact the lawsuit was still ongoing three years after WCW got bought out.

[Zeeboe]

Originally Posted by DAMN iNATOR And how come Wikipedia has this to say about the incident on Hogan’s page?: [Dan Rather]And I quote: Answer THAT, BITCH!

You insult me and yet you think Wikipedia...a place where anybody can submit anything....is a reliable source. Oh, nice one.

Hey, did you know the Fink and Vince's daughter are married? It's true...the IMDB said that.

In regards of Russo.....hey, I never said I believed him. I'm just saying what I read.

[M-A-G]

Originally Posted by Val Venis You insult me and yet you think Wikipedia...a place where anybody can submit anything....is a reliable source. Oh, nice one. Hey, did you know the Fink and Vince's daughter are married? It's true...the IMDB said that. In regards of Russo.....hey, I never said I believed him. I'm just saying what I read.

So you're just going to blindly take the word of the guy you just happen to be devoted to basically.

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by M-A-G It was all a work. Russo and Hogan hatched a scheme for the World Championship picture between themselves. Jarrett was the one out of the loop. In an attempt to appeal the Internet crowd (you know, because that's what every wrestling fan does 24/7: scour the Internet for backstage news) Russo played off of Hogan's creative control clause and created the scenario at Bash at the Beach. All of this done with the excuse to phase Hogan out for a while and bring him back later to feud with the champion at that time with the logic being that no one had beaten him for his title (in storyline terms). The problem was that Russo went a little too far with the speech later that night and Hogan was upset with some of the things he said and stormed out of the building. He later sued for character defamation. It was a very real lawsuit considering Hogan didn't want to work for TNA while Russo was on the payroll (to be fair, this might just be an excuse) and the fact the lawsuit was still ongoing three years after WCW got bought out.

Even in that scenerio, it's still a shoot because Jarrett didn't know what was going on, and Russo basically (shot? shooted?) on Hogan during the unfolding. Montreal isn't a work just because Hart was the only one who didn't know, right?

Anyways it's all still a shoot to me, dammit.

[M-A-G]

Originally Posted by DarthTedious Even in that scenerio, it's still a shoot because Jarrett didn't know what was going on, and Russo basically (shot? shooted?) on Hogan during the unfolding. Montreal isn't a work just because Hart was the only one who didn't know, right? Anyways it's all still a shoot to me, dammit.

Russo didn't really shoot so much as he got carried away. Jarrett knew about the whole 'lay down' part but not so much about the reasoning behind it all if that makes sense. Ah, f*ck it, listen to me. I'm trying to make sense out of friggin' VINCE RUSSO.

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by M-A-G Russo didn't really shoot so much as he got carried away. Jarrett knew about the whole 'lay down' part but not so much about the reasoning behind it all if that makes sense. Ah, f*ck it, listen to me. I'm trying to make sense out of friggin' VINCE RUSSO.

That's the problem. To quote an old friend of mine, everything Vince Russo does on the air is technically a shoot.

[M-A-G]

Mind you, I don't believe anyone here has spat on what Hogan has done for wrestling in general. Anyone who has a good mind for the business or been a fan for at least 15 or so years can tell you that Hogan was a positive influence on the WWE in the 80s playing a role that was just meant to be played by someone with his stature and his speaking style. Does he deserve recognition? Absolutely. The main beef here is that all of that was done in a time long ago that really doesn't matter anymore. The video game market also crashed in 1980s. Did we get hung up on that for the last score? The question asked now is what has Hogan done recently? Wrestling has done fine without him and the WWE experienced some of its greatest success not just without him but with him working for the competition. If you want to talk about people who have struck out, you have to start with Hogan as the whole basis of his heel turn was the fact that he was being booed and he needed something to bring his career out of the vegetative state it was in. Once the thrill of the heel turn passed, it was the same old stuff over and over again as he just wasn't adding anything positive to WCW. The man who could've done something about that (Goldberg anyone?) ended up getting screwed over by the kind of crap Hogan used to pull. How is hurting a valuable asset doing something good? Is Hogan a legend? Yes. No question. Is he someone we're supposed to worship just because he's Hogan? Hell, no.

[Theo Dious]

Common knowledge over time has told us that the world is flat, that the sun revolves around the Earth, that a human being could never travel faster than 30 mph and survive, that eggs are the worst things for our health, that eggs are the best thing for our health, and that the best way to treat a person for injuries was to allow blood to flow freely.

But hey, Hulk Hogan is a real American, and it's common knowledge that Americans don't lie.



God dammit.

[Zeeboe]

Like I said brother, find me two sources from people in the business that disagree with Hogan and I might change my mind.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Val Venis Like I said brother, find me two sources from people in the business that disagree with Hogan and I might change my mind.

The mark of a retard.

Sorry, "brother," It's been demonstrated that Hogan's "story" is not reliable. That he's contradicted himself on top of being one of the most full of shit guys in the business.

Nobody's going to bother trying to change your mind. they're just going to laugh at your football helmet.

[Zeeboe]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight The mark of a retard. Sorry, "brother," It's been demonstrated that Hogan's "story" is not reliable. That he's contradicted himself on top of being one of the most full of shit guys in the business. Nobody's going to bother trying to change your mind. they're just going to laugh at your football helmet.

Right. So anyway, where is the proof at that his book is not reliable? Let me guess what the proof is...it's in the magical land of Oz.....

[DAMN iNATOR]

Originally Posted by Val Venis Also keep in mind that Bret Hart was supposed to be the third nWo member but when that did not work out, Hogan jumped on the nWo ship. That sounds realistic to me and makes more sense then Bischoff randomly picking one of the top babyfaces in the company to turn heel. McMahon never wanted Hogan to be heel according to his book, even though Hogan suggested it a few times and it would make sense that Bischoff wouldn't want him to turn heel either since Hogan was a huge money maker as a babyface so turning Hogan heel would be a huge risk. But Hogan talked him into it and the rest is history.

And you criticized me for posting something from Wikipedia, because you thought I believed it? Well, let me tell you something, “BROTHER”...Me actually contributing something useful to this thread is nothing like reading a WWE book and believing it, because just look at all the spin they (WWE) put into their books to tell it from a kayfabe point of view only and not a real life point of view. Nice going, you completely missed that.

Originally Posted by Val Venis HBK and Orton are heels...heels for the most part are pretty much jobbers...and McMahon wants to send the people home happy and seeing heels win big matches isn't going to make the people happy.

Oh, they’re both heels? Really? Because I could’ve sworn that Michaels agreed to a match with Orton for Judgment Day this Sunday...oh, wait that’s right...THEY DID! And guess what? Here’s a ‘fun fact’ you and your butt-buddy, taker707 will surely find surprising...Michaels is a babyface, and Orton is a heel! (WW...TRUE STORY AND PICS! CLICK HERE[>>] ) So check your facts before you just go about posting random things that are true in your own little fantasy world, will ya?

[Mooияakeя™]

I liked Kidman for 3 things.

The Shooting Star Press
Torrie Wilson
and he strangely reminded me of Bret Hart.

Venis rules. The wrestler that is. - The best thing the Hoganoid did was the comedy match vs. Shawn Michaels.

Originally Posted by M-A-G Jeritron needs more Cowbell

Having only searched the inet for more SNL last week (cos in the UK, it's well out of sync), I know what that means now, and ja, I agree! - Either that or a dick in a box.

[Kane Knight]

You really are retarded.

Hogan has contradicted himself and your precious evidence. You don't really need more proof than that. And it comes from Hogan himself.

As such, you should really be the one trying to come up with a real source that verifies this. But you won't. You have no evidence, and you can't find any.

[Zeeboe]

I was talking about Hogan's matches with HBK and Orton. HBK was a heel when he did his program with Hulk Hogan...that is how he lost to Hogan. Orton was also a heel when he wrestled Hogan...and that is how he lost to Hogan. Get it now brother?

Do you even know what kayfabe means? If Hogan was writing the book in kaybabe, it would have been just like that Hulk Hogan magazine that came out in spring of 2002 where everything was written in character.

Hulk Hogan did not write his book in character. Hell, the book is not even about the character "Hulk Hogan". It's about the man who played the part of the character "Hulk Hogan".

Get it now brother?

[DAMN iNATOR]

Originally Posted by Val Venis I was talking about Hogan's matches with HBK and Orton. HBK was a heel when he did his program with Hulk Hogan...that is how he lost to Hogan. Orton was also a heel when he wrestled Hogan...and that is how he lost to Hogan. Get it now brother?

No, the reason why Hogan won those matches, and follow me now, because here's where it might get tricky for you to understand...THE ONLY REASON Hogan won either of those matches is because he knew he could demand complete creative control in them from Vince McMahon and family, and Vince would give it to him because they had such a long work relationship together. So once that was in the bag for those matches, it was easy street for Hogan. He knew all he had to do was let Orton or Michaels carry him 99.9% of the way before all he had to do was play to the crowd with his “I’m so deaf and retarded I need to hold my hand up to my ears 37,895 times before I go ahead and hit the leg drop”, hit the damn leg drop and effectively piss off everyone in the crowd at him for winning with such a wimpish-looking move, which, tbh it is, and at his opponent for agreeing to lose to such a stupid maneuver, just because Hogan wouldn't have it any other way without crying to Vince McMahon if he lost that the other guy “cheated”. Get THAT, now “BROTHER”?

[FourFifty]

Originally Posted by Val Venis heels for the most part are pretty much jobbers...

You Stupid Bastard!
Here's a fun fact! Hulk Hogan was a heel! Pretty much a Jobber, right?
Ric Flair, one of the greatest champions of all time, used to be a heel AND was a champion as a heel. A Jobber Champion? No Wai!
At one point in time The Four Horsemen were heels, and they were all chamions. Of course they were all on the undercard because they were heels.
You know who The Undertaker beat when he was a heel? Hulk Hogan. Hogan jobbed to a jobber.




Yea, I'm just some internet fan. I've been a fan for over 20 years I've seen the best of them all come and go. I've seen the drama, the passion, the blood, the sweat, the tears, and I've seen enough to tell you that you have no fucking idea how the industry works.

[Theo Dious]

You also didn't mention HHH. Constantly wins as a heel. JBL took numerous victories as a heel. The idea that "heels lose" is extremely flawed. It isn't even a given that a heel always wins dirty anymore.

[Slow]

Well, as of the last year or two, all heels are now jobbers, hence no long term heel champions.

[Slow]

since the HHH and JBL title reigns, as the pidgit mentioned

[Theo Dious]

Yeah, that's been a current trend, but it's hardly a solid standard.