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Old 08-13-2008, 06:00 PM   #1
Destor
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But there are loads of good workers on that list, but form 95-ish too 97 HBM is eaily top 50 in the world. The only people who say otherwise are people who hate the mainstream style and/or anti-kliq marks. Which if that's your perogative, whatever. It's all about personal prefference. Not really any way someone can be right here.
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Old 08-14-2008, 04:16 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimo Tiger View Post
i don't think anyone has ever successfully argued that shoot style is not pro wrestling. they're performing, not competing, which means they're doing pro wrestling. there's no "correct" way to wrestle. rings etc is a lot closer to 20s wrestling than wwe.

don't have a problem with mainstream wrestling and think the kliq's hilarious. you could say the only people who say otherwise (irrationally) love the guy and/or haven't seen much non-mainstream wrestling. imo
Really don't agree with that sentance, there are a lot of ways to perform that aren't pro-wrestling. If two MMA fighters went out and worked a fight it wouldn't suddenly be wrestling, it would be something entirley different and entirerly new. Which on the same token this shoot style is.
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Old 08-14-2008, 04:59 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Ultimo Tiger View Post
If they worked a fight it would be pro wrestling, yes. Fight with predetermined ending = pro wrestling. Doesn't matter if they're not running the ropes and comically pulling punches.
By that logic a rigged boxing match is pro-wrestling.

Seriously though, I dissagree. Being rigged doesn't make something pro-wrestling, that makes it a work. My two cents.
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Old 08-14-2008, 01:01 AM   #4
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You're going to be hard pressed to find someone who is going to argue about shoot style wrestling, as A, most people haven't seen it, or B, they don't like it. I'm not a HUGE fan of it. I can watch it, but in small doses. Ultimately, yes, it's wrestling, but it's not wrestling that casual wrestling fans, or even wrestling lovers, are definitely going to like.

Once again though, it comes back to what we're comparing. Comparing Kakihara or Sakuraba to Shawn Micheals is a bit off to say the least, since not only do they wrestle different styles, but the companies they wrestle for are totally different. One is try to be "realistic" while the other is blatantly trying to do entertainment. HBK doesn't need to worry about wrestling as in depth as some of the shooters, but likewise, the shooters don't have as many concerns about working a mic, playing up the crowd as much, etc.

And like I said before, it all comes down to preference anyway. You're going to be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't like the shoot style to say that any of them are better than HBK, because they will,. probably by default, prefer HBK's style. The opposite is also true.

On a side note, Kakihara has the greatest STO ever.
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:44 AM   #5
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fucking cock suckers
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Old 08-14-2008, 05:13 PM   #6
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Based on the logic of the Sandman being good in the Raven/Dreamer feud in 1996, I am nominated Kamala for being better than HBK in 1996 because of how he never broke kayfabe. Plus he has bodyslammed Andre the Giant which is something I am willing to bet none of the fifty guys on your list has done.
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:30 PM   #7
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While I don't agree with RP to that extent, Owen is vastly over rated.
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
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While I don't agree with RP to that extent, Owen is vastly over rated.
As a what? In fact, he's vastly underrated, and always has been. Christ, if guys like Benoit could hold a world title, Owen should have held it 5 times over that.

Owen was just as agile and high flying based as HBK, except he had a little more skill on his feet as well.

imo, Owen took the best of his brother and the best of HBK and meshed them together.

Pillman was much like Owen, except Pillman on the mic schools everyone else, charisma wise and ability wise.

Pillman is up there in that elite class of stick work.

I'm not discounting HBK by saying these two easily compete with him.

But I am saying Owen and Pillman in 96 most definitely belonged on just such a list, especially if you're going to include a bunch of shit on that list, whose names I dont even have to mention, they are so silly.
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Old 08-16-2008, 07:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen v.W.o. View Post
As a what? In fact, he's vastly underrated, and always has been. Christ, if guys like Benoit could hold a world title, Owen should have held it 5 times over that.

Owen was just as agile and high flying based as HBK, except he had a little more skill on his feet as well.

imo, Owen took the best of his brother and the best of HBK and meshed them together.

Pillman was much like Owen, except Pillman on the mic schools everyone else, charisma wise and ability wise.

Pillman is up there in that elite class of stick work.

I'm not discounting HBK by saying these two easily compete with him.

But I am saying Owen and Pillman in 96 most definitely belonged on just such a list, especially if you're going to include a bunch of shit on that list, whose names I dont even have to mention, they are so silly.


The best of his brother and the best of HBK and meshed them together? I think God took the best of two special olympic kids, meshed them together, ate it, shit it out and called it your brain. I dont even know alot of about wrestling, but i know enough to comfortably call you a fucking retard for making that post.
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:53 AM   #10
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Brian Pillman in 1996 didn't even wrestle a match. How the fuck can he be in the top 50?
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Old 08-16-2008, 02:08 PM   #11
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Brian Pillman in 1996 didn't even wrestle a match. How the fuck can he be in the top 50?
I'm talking about his skill alone. It's easily applicable. Besides that, Bret took most of 96 off as well.

Shit Davey Boy isnt even on the list, meanwhile the fucking sandman made it.

And RP, that right there proves that you really dont watch much wrestling so arguing with you over something you are quite literally ignorant about would be futile.
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Old 08-16-2008, 04:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen v.W.o. View Post
I'm talking about his skill alone. It's easily applicable. Besides that, Bret took most of 96 off as well.

Shit Davey Boy isnt even on the list, meanwhile the fucking sandman made it.

And RP, that right there proves that you really dont watch much wrestling so arguing with you over something you are quite literally ignorant about would be futile.
Skill alone doesn't count. Pillman wasn't the same after his injuries. You might as well say Bret Hart is the best in the world in 2008 when he hasn't had a match because he was awesome 8 years ago.

And Bret worked 5 months in the WWF on TV and then every foreign tour too. And his matches with Shawn Michaels and Steve Austin alone were enough to put him on the list even if he only had 2 matches that year.
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Old 08-16-2008, 05:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen v.W.o. View Post
I'm talking about his skill alone. It's easily applicable. Besides that, Bret took most of 96 off as well.

Shit Davey Boy isnt even on the list, meanwhile the fucking sandman made it.

And RP, that right there proves that you really dont watch much wrestling so arguing with you over something you are quite literally ignorant about would be futile.
I win again. You cant name 5 elite promo's Pillman did. Instead you just call me dumb. ROFLDAIRYQUEEN!

< winner
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Old 08-16-2008, 01:51 AM   #14
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And I'm kind of right in the middle on the Owen discussion.

I DO think people overrate the man simply because he died in his prime.

I'm not gonna bash him though by completely discounting everyone's high ranking of him because he was VERY good IMO. I just don't find him to have ever been better than HBK.
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Old 08-16-2008, 07:27 AM   #15
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Name me 5 specific promos Brian Pillman ever did that were elite.

< I win
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Old 08-16-2008, 04:58 PM   #16
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lol
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Old 08-16-2008, 07:06 PM   #17
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Pillman had wicked promos. I don't know where you're going with that one.
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Old 08-17-2008, 07:02 PM   #18
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That's pretty arrogant
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Old 08-17-2008, 07:11 PM   #19
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2) Kamala
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Old 08-17-2008, 07:13 PM   #20
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2) Kamala
Debatable...
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Old 08-17-2008, 07:14 PM   #21
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How about we make a list of dumb Mexican wrestlers whose lack of judgment caused them to allow themselves to be de-masked, ostracizing themselves from Mexican wrestling, leading to a handful of angry smarks being bitter at Kevin Nash and the Clique, over a decade after the fact?

1) Rey Mysterio Junior
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Old 08-17-2008, 07:24 PM   #22
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NYDon does not have that much rep yet (10+)
Like, see, if I was talking about Ian Rotten, I would say "dumb American wrestler".

Ultimo Tiger, you're one hell of a character. Don't stop.
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Old 08-17-2008, 07:29 PM   #23
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3 & 4) The Killer Bees
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Old 08-18-2008, 05:20 PM   #24
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6) The Berserker
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Old 08-18-2008, 05:25 PM   #25
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I almost forgot about Austin. One COULD make the argument that he is one of the 50 biggest draws of all time too. But I'm only judging that based on watching him and how popular he was and the merchandise he sold and the ratings when he was on top and PPV buy rates and such during the era in which he was on top. Tough to really judge if he was a draw or not from that.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt I GUESS.
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Old 08-18-2008, 05:29 PM   #26
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so 7) Austin

8) VINCE MCMAHON
9) Jim Ross
10) RoboCop (Take some time away from watching nothing but WWE and look it up people. Definitely drew more than Rock if you look at the big picture.)
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Old 08-18-2008, 05:35 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
I almost forgot about Austin. One COULD make the argument that he is one of the 50 biggest draws of all time too. But I'm only judging that based on watching him and how popular he was and the merchandise he sold and the ratings when he was on top and PPV buy rates and such during the era in which he was on top. Tough to really judge if he was a draw or not from that.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt I GUESS.
Was Steve Austin the guy who invented that "Austin 3:16" clothing line? I remember seeing like 10 million of those shirts.
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Old 08-18-2008, 05:45 PM   #28
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Actually WWE only sold like 15 of those shirts. The millions you saw were just the same 15 shirts that were passed around via yard sales, e-bay, and disgruntled fans who were sick of waiting for the whole "Austin" craze to take off and just gave them away. Whenever someone was seen with one of the shirts on, WWE would show them on TV, making it seem like more existed. If you ever saw any in person, it was just right place right time.

In fact, considering how many were produced and never sold, WWE probably lost millions because of Austin. He's off the list. He may actually be the worst draw in wrestling history...
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Old 08-18-2008, 06:58 PM   #29
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Robocop was shit in 1996 after his ankle surgery. Take him off the list, we don't want to lose street cred.
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Old 08-19-2008, 02:52 AM   #30
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You're trying to say Shawn Michaels was not one of the 50 best wrestlers in 1996.

My point with the whole "50 bigger draws than the Rock" thing isn't to show how ridiculous your statement is. The sentence above shows that without anything else needing to be said.

My point was that you think you're going to sound smart simply by making a ridiculous statement like one of the greatest workers of all time wasn't in the top 50 workers in 1996 and trying to sound like a "well educated wrestling fan" to back it up.

"No one can argue my point because I'll just call them out on not knowing anything outside WWE and I'LL seem like the smart one, while they all sound like they don't know what they're talking about."

Therefore, I made a ridiculous statement. "The Rock was not one of the 50 biggest draws of all time" and began a list of guys that I could make dumb arguments for hoping I could just claim to be more educated than them when i got called out.
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Old 08-19-2008, 07:35 AM   #31
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LOL Tigger

You act like prefference is a fact. For the record, blue is clearly superior to orange and if you think any different you're a fool.
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:19 PM   #32
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LOL Tigger

You act like prefference is a fact. For the record, blue is clearly superior to orange and if you think any different you're a fool.
If there was ever a fact about one colour being better than another then this is is. Dundee FC wear blue Dundee United (filthy arab bastards) wear orange

Perfect logic there.

And orange is actually banned from my house unless it's a fruit. My ex bought orange and black clothes pegs for the washing line. I threw them all out immediately and she called me a psycho. I told my dad what she did. He said I should have thrown her out too. A wise man he is.
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Old 08-20-2008, 03:17 PM   #33
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And orange is actually banned from my house unless it's a fruit. My ex bought orange and black clothes pegs for the washing line. I threw them all out immediately and she called me a psycho. I told my dad what she did. He said I should have thrown her out too. A wise man he is.
Thank you for making my day.
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:21 PM   #34
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LOL, wtf happened here?
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Old 08-20-2008, 03:47 PM   #35
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After strenous study
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Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 View Post
LOL, wtf happened here?
From what I gather, Ultimo tiger took like 17 hits of acid and made a post. Now he thinks he's an orange who is 15x better than Shawn Michaels?
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:27 PM   #36
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Blue is better than orange. Keep up will you.
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Old 08-11-2008, 07:49 AM   #37
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The list is, more or less, laughable in some places. Some people are, and some people damn good arguements can be made for. A lot of them though are just stretches, and not good ones at that.

With that said, it's not like it isn't 100% subjective anyway. Especially when it comes down to the style of wrestling, the strenghts and weaknesses of people, and just exactly what is being compared.
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Old 08-11-2008, 07:51 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do? View Post
The list is, more or less, laughable in some places. Some people are, and some people damn good arguements can be made for. A lot of them though are just stretches, and not good ones at that.

With that said, it's not like it isn't 100% subjective anyway. Especially when it comes down to the style of wrestling, the strenghts and weaknesses of people, and just exactly what is being compared.
Completely true, regardless I'm still typing this Noid post up. But none of it's debateable, every last bit of it is nothing more than personal preference. Whatever though.
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Old 08-11-2008, 07:45 PM   #39
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what's an hbm?



does jim cornette also call luchadores, "luchas"? this happens in all forms of wrestling.



3-way classic in '96 and masterpiece against Navarro earlier this decade are available online.

you forgot santo.

run us through the shoot style guys now.
An HBM is a Heart break man.
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Old 08-12-2008, 05:07 PM   #40
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Quote:
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hbk ' 96 - not the smartest wrestler.... below average offense... crying and bitching made it difficult to take him seriously... very good bumper, too bad a lot of the impact was taken away from the bumps thanks to his ridiculous overselling (watch the survivor series sid match for a good example). only had a few good/very good matches that year - v diesel, v foley.... exposed himself wrestling for an hour.

i don't know about sandman and sabu, but other than that the list seems fairly accurate. lack of footage may be an issue for a few wrestlers.
I don't even know where to begin.
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