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Old 10-23-2015, 02:49 PM   #1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
But don't you think it's a waste to put all that effort into building Brock (breaks the streak, dominates Cena, plows through everyone for 8 months) only to lose to someone (Rusev in this case) "sometime before Mania". Seems anti climactic.

And you've now beaten Brock AND Cena multiple times to get to Rusev v Reigns. Maybe that would have worked, although as we've seen, the crowd isn't ready to embrace Reigns add the number one babyface. Imagine promos leading up to a big match where Rusev is essentially silent and Roman is trying to fumble through his lines. I bet you look to get the belt back on Cena ASAP.
It wouldn't have been at waste of putting 2 people over Brock at that time, WWE was not sure Brock was going to be staying with the company until like a week before Mania. when I say some time before Mania I am thinking Survivor Series or rumble not a minor PPV like TLC.

The crowd didn't openly reject Reigns until he won the rumble If he gets tossed out of the rumble, he wouldn't be catching so much flak.

But he still can't cut a promo, I thought he would have been ready by now. You could continue with Rusev being a dominating champ like HHH in 2003 with losing some title matches here and there until someone who can carry the company dethrones him.
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I go back to the US Open Challenge. Look how strong Cena has made that belt. Some people say is just as important as the WWE title. When was the last time that happened? That all stated by Cena winning the program with Rusev and acting like it was a big deal.
He made the Belt look very strong, but not the people he is facing. It would be on thing if Cena beat some people easily and then had really close matchs with other guys. But if your having really close matches with everyone then it doesn't do anything for anybody.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:05 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
It wouldn't have been at waste of putting 2 people over Brock at that time, WWE was not sure Brock was going to be staying with the company until like a week before Mania. when I say some time before Mania I am thinking Survivor Series or rumble not a minor PPV like TLC.

The crowd didn't openly reject Reigns until he won the rumble If he gets tossed out of the rumble, he wouldn't be catching so much flak.

But he still can't cut a promo, I thought he would have been ready by now. You could continue with Rusev being a dominating champ like HHH in 2003 with losing some title matches here and there until someone who can carry the company dethrones him.
He made the Belt look very strong, but not the people he is facing. It would be on thing if Cena beat some people easily and then had really close matchs with other guys. But if your having really close matches with everyone then it doesn't do anything for anybody.
You may not have been sure Brock was leaving, but I believe WWE was 90% certain he was staying

As it stands Brock is still strong. I think he will make more money for WWE over the next few years than Reigns would have. As he's shown recently, he's not ready to be a top baby
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Old 10-23-2015, 02:32 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
My outlook on this is different, I feel Heels should be the ones dominating and faces should have the short runs. That is not WWEs vision but other territories followed this.
Diffrrent strokes. To me WWE is vastly superior to all other sports entertainment companies. I would take their booking logic to the bank.

If babyfaces fail right after they succeed they are lousy babyfaces. Hard to imagine those people drawing. Imagine if the Heath Ledger Batman ending with him blowing up the two boats of citizens and inmates. Batman just shrugs into the camera and goes "oops" as credits role.
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Old 10-23-2015, 02:55 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Diffrrent strokes. To me WWE is vastly superior to all other sports entertainment companies. I would take their booking logic to the bank.

If babyfaces fail right after they succeed they are lousy babyfaces. Hard to imagine those people drawing. Imagine if the Heath Ledger Batman ending with him blowing up the two boats of citizens and inmates. Batman just shrugs into the camera and goes "oops" as credits role.
Well with the batman analogy Joker takes out the cops, judges, etc before facing the rising star of batman. Batman wins. Bane comes in a crushes Batman, dominates Gotham for a long awhile until Batman comes back and beats him Cat woman comes back and beats him.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:03 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
Well with the batman analogy Joker takes out the cops, judges, etc before facing the rising star of batman. Batman wins. Bane comes in a crushes Batman, dominates Gotham for a long awhile until Batman comes back and beats him Cat woman comes back and beats him.
I'm sure cat woman will be as big of a draw as batman
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Old 10-24-2015, 09:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
If babyfaces fail right after they succeed they are lousy babyfaces. Hard to imagine those people drawing. Imagine if the Heath Ledger Batman ending with him blowing up the two boats of citizens and inmates. Batman just shrugs into the camera and goes "oops" as credits role.
But that's what they do with guys, CyNick. This has been a large point of contention with you that you've either ignored for argument's sake, to troll or because you don't understand it. In fact, they often don't give the face a chance to succeed before they start failing.

Cesaro and Ambrose spring immediately to mind. I think Cesaro has beaten Rusev twice since he split up from Tyson Kidd. He's not being positioned as a Batman. Isn't it weird he isn't getting over? Ambrose constantly chokes when he gets a chance to put his hand on his nemesis, and then he just meanders around the wastelands shrugging. He's not being positioned as Batman.

And, for that matter, no one is The Joker. Seth Rollins has been presented as fucking Kite Man.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:03 PM   #7
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I didn't book it, Chris Nolan did.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:06 PM   #8
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I didn't book it, Chris Nolan did.
Either way, I would trust the guy I know can draw.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:52 PM   #9
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Cena doesn't draw like he used to, it's time for someone new.
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Old 10-23-2015, 03:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
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Cena doesn't draw like he used to, it's time for someone new.
Network subs have been increasing year over year. Mania has sold out huge arenas every year with him on top. I dunno, what are the metrics that prove his time isn't now?

That said, WWE is clearly trying to find the next guy. They spent the better part of a year laying the groundwork for the Daniel Bryan run and through a fluke that didn't pan out.

Before that they spent countless months trying to get Punk over as a headliner. He got to a certain level and couldn't maintain and ultimately burnt out.

Roman Reigns has been pegged as a guy to potentially take over, but he hasn't gotten to the level they need.

I'm sure this year they will try again (maybe another shot with Reigns, maybe someone else). And we'll see if that guy can fill John's boots.

There should be no rush to push him aside just for the sake of doing it though.
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:11 PM   #11
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Not saying do it tomorrow, no one can fill his shoes on the main roster, as of right now. But WWE should know the answer by WM32. If that answer is still "Cena" then I will continue not to watch.
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:22 PM   #12
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Not saying do it tomorrow, no one can fill his shoes on the main roster, as of right now. But WWE should know the answer by WM32. If that answer is still "Cena" then I will continue not to watch.
Classic case of promising a stip you won't deliver on
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:22 PM   #13
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I haven't watched for over a month so far...
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Old 10-23-2015, 06:38 PM   #14
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I haven't watched for over a month so far...
I'll catch you in this lie at a later date.
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Old 10-23-2015, 09:24 PM   #15
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I'll catch you in this lie at a later date.
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Classic case of a promise you won't deliver on
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Old 10-27-2015, 12:18 PM   #16
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I'll catch you in this lie at a later date.
Still waiting for you to catch me in this "lie"
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Old 10-27-2015, 04:09 PM   #17
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Still waiting for you to catch me in this "lie"
What was your favorite match at Hell in a Cell?
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Old 10-23-2015, 05:06 PM   #18
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You haven't missed anything.
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Old 10-23-2015, 05:33 PM   #19
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So CyNick didnt answer a single point I made. Look at it his way.

My outlook isn't negative, its realistic. Social media doesn't mean shit for WWE and the rating is down. But I enjoy so much about the world of wrestling and WWE, and with doing the podcast I love wrestling maybe more than ever because we get so many different opinions of so many different topics that its fascinating to me. But I'm also well aware that fans like us here on a forum are the minority. And if the crowds were going wild for the current stuff, you'd be right to tell me to get over it and move on. But we're in the middle of either a transitional point in storylines, or, as it feels to a lot of people clearly, at a stage where there just isnt a lot to be excited about until Rumble time when things will be important again.
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Old 10-23-2015, 06:37 PM   #20
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So CyNick didnt answer a single point I made. Look at it his way.

My outlook isn't negative, its realistic. Social media doesn't mean shit for WWE and the rating is down. But I enjoy so much about the world of wrestling and WWE, and with doing the podcast I love wrestling maybe more than ever because we get so many different opinions of so many different topics that its fascinating to me. But I'm also well aware that fans like us here on a forum are the minority. And if the crowds were going wild for the current stuff, you'd be right to tell me to get over it and move on. But we're in the middle of either a transitional point in storylines, or, as it feels to a lot of people clearly, at a stage where there just isnt a lot to be excited about until Rumble time when things will be important again.
People consume entertainment online, dont know if you heard. That is clear from the WWEs wildly successful social media numbers. If social media doesn't matter why does just about every company engage in it? Who told you social media means shit to WWE? You sound like another negative Nelly with a podcsst that I know. You don't see WWEs internal data on how social media impacts their other revenue streams, yet you make a blanket statement about how it doesn't mean shit. You would think someone with a podcast would automatically understand the business aspects of WWE.

The WWE You Tube page shows various clips from WWE shows, and at the end guess what it promotes? A little thing called the WWE Network. Do you know how many people watched those clips and decided to order WWE Network? I'll answer for you, you have no idea. You read some 4 point newsletter and think you understand how WWEs revenue streams work. Its hilarious to me.

If you enjoy sorts entertainment then great, but you, and just about everyone on this sad sad place sound like you hate it. Maybe change your podcast to something you are excited about. I mean that's just me. I would never want to spend so much time on something I'm not enjoying like you guys do. But if you enjoy it, that's cool too.
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Old 10-23-2015, 09:27 PM   #21
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If you enjoy sorts entertainment then great, but you, and just about everyone on this sad sad place sound like you hate it. Maybe change your podcast to something you are excited about. I mean that's just me. I would never want to spend so much time on something I'm not enjoying like you guys do. But if you enjoy it, that's cool too.
Maybe he enjoys other shows like NXT, ROH, CHW, TNA, or NJPW
Last edited by Savio; 10-23-2015 at 09:43 PM. Reason: Wait no one could like TNA, sorry
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Old 10-24-2015, 06:35 AM   #22
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People consume entertainment online, dont know if you heard. That is clear from the WWEs wildly successful social media numbers. If social media doesn't matter why does just about every company engage in it? Who told you social media means shit to WWE? You sound like another negative Nelly with a podcsst that I know. You don't see WWEs internal data on how social media impacts their other revenue streams, yet you make a blanket statement about how it doesn't mean shit. You would think someone with a podcast would automatically understand the business aspects of WWE.
Actually I did in the last post and you chose to ignore it. Any time they chose not to plug Lesnar on TV but did on Twitter, it meant nothing for ratings. And, as I said before and you ignored, the only place they plugged Steve Austins first Raw in 4 years was Twitter, and it did a 2.2. So how does that work for them?

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WWE You Tube page shows various clips from WWE shows, and at the end guess what it promotes? A little thing called the WWE Network. Do you know how many people watched those clips and decided to order WWE Network? I'll answer for you, you have no idea. You read some 4 point newsletter and think you understand how WWEs revenue streams work. Its hilarious to me.
I know how many subscribers they have because they announce them. Of course I don't know YouTube conversion, and neither do you, its completely speculative. But ratings and house shows being down, and the Network being below what they have always said their original break even point is, while their social media is high doesnt correlate. I don't need to read a newsletter to figure that out, thats common sense.

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If you enjoy sorts entertainment then great, but you, and just about everyone on this sad sad place sound like you hate it. Maybe change your podcast to something you are excited about. I mean that's just me. I would never want to spend so much time on something I'm not enjoying like you guys do. But if you enjoy it, that's cool too.
Maybe you should learn to read. Multiple times I've said I am loving following wrestling, and my initial post you jumped on I didnt even hint that I wasnt, I simply made an observation about how the WWE doesnt react to ratings much the way they used to, and it shows how much wrestling has changed. You completely misinterpreted the point, as you constantly have in this thread. Savio above me clearly understands, as have others. You're jumping to conclusions that everybody is negative, when it isnt hating everything the WWE does to make a post in a wrestling forum that the lowest rating in 18 years isnt a good thing.
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Old 10-24-2015, 11:14 AM   #23
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You're trying to change the argument.

You said social media means shit. Which I know where you got that idea from but you won't admit it. Aside from that you made the fair point that advertising Austin's return solely on social media didn't bump television ratings. But I never argued that it would. What I think it BS is stating social media doesnt mean shit to WWE. Without access to WWE internal data you would have no idea about what benefits WWE gets from their highly successful activities on social media. Would television ratings have been higher if they promoted Austin on TV, maybe a little, but maybe the shock will have an impact down the road. Either way its irrelevant to the point that "social media means shit".

As for The Network, it's increasing year over year. In business when you start a new venture you expect losses at first, but long term it pays off. The Network is still in its infancy. From a revenue perspective they are futher ahead now vs pre network with just ppv. Again, my earlier post was just tying the fact that social media likely does not "mean shit" to the success of the Network growth.

As for your enjoyment of the product, I believe most people here like wrestling more than they let on. I think you fall into the category of people who like to cater to the negative crowd who want to spend 3 hours a week watching RAW and then get together and go this is shit. My belief is you enjoy it, but to be a cool kid in the IWC podcast world you have to be negative like your overlords who you try to emulate.

But I could be way off. I'll give your podcast a listen and see if any of your arguments sound familiar.
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Old 10-24-2015, 11:52 AM   #24
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Didn't get the idea from anywhere, like I said, that's common sense as far as I see.

And Network revenue isn't ahead of pre-Network PPV revenue now at all, that's just a outright lie.

As for my general opinion on things, think it's pretty cut and dry, not a negative bastard for the hell of it, but when something bad happens, got to call it like it is.
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Old 10-24-2015, 12:24 PM   #25
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Kevin Sullivan brought up a great point. The company keeps bringing back old stars to boost ratings, but ends up reminding the audience that the current roster sucks.

Could you imagine if when Hogan and Savage were first brought in if Vince kept bringing up Pedro Morales, Bob Backlund and Bruno in big roles. Hogan and Savage might have never gotten so over.
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Old 10-24-2015, 09:17 PM   #26
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Kevin Sullivan brought up a great point. The company keeps bringing back old stars to boost ratings, but ends up reminding the audience that the current roster sucks.

Could you imagine if when Hogan and Savage were first brought in if Vince kept bringing up Pedro Morales, Bob Backlund and Bruno in big roles. Hogan and Savage might have never gotten so over.
This is a very good point. I feel that when they have older stars involved in the product, they should be going out of their way to give the current generation and stories a rub. And can a guy really get to A1 if John Cena is still in the A-class babyface group? Cena taking some extended time off to allow the next guy a chance, or even turning heel, might be the best way to transition the people behind the new guy and his merchandise.
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Old 10-27-2015, 04:13 PM   #27
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I think CyNick thinks he's got you trapped, Vic...
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Old 10-27-2015, 04:14 PM   #28
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lol i didn't watch.
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Old 10-27-2015, 06:05 PM   #29
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Still waiting for you to catch me in this "lie"
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
What was your favorite match at Hell in a Cell?
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lol i didn't watch.
DAMN! Back to the ol' drawing board.
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Old 10-27-2015, 06:59 PM   #30
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I never claimed to be a sleuth
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Old 10-27-2015, 04:15 PM   #31
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Very craftily avoided, Vic.
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Old 10-27-2015, 04:45 PM   #32
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Really enjoyed (the hulu cut of) Raw. A wresting heavy show about wrestling was actually good. Now that Reigns has been pushed back into the main event, I'm hoping the Survivor Series screw job of Seth Rollins, with Reigns taking his place as hand picked face of the company goes in to motion.
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Old 10-27-2015, 07:43 PM   #33
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Quote:
Raw Viewership for 10/26

8pm: 3.635
9pm: 3.213
10pm: 3.214

Avg: 3.354
Down a bit compared to last week and 2nd month in a row no post-ppv bump. Only good news was 8pm being a bit stronger than last week and 10pm making up for 9pm being down.
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Old 10-29-2015, 09:05 AM   #34
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Network subs up 62% YoY

The sky is falling!!!!
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Old 10-29-2015, 11:33 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Network subs up 62% YoY

The sky is falling!!!!
Proving what exactly?

That people want to watch WWE PPVs for $10/month instead of the former substantially higher rates but care less and less about RAW? Shocker. People want to pay less for something they used to have to pay more for. Even more so if they feel that the quality has declined. Also, if so, that's not good for TV licensing or TV sponsorship revenues for WWE.

Or maybe that people want to watch former WWE, WCW or ECW shows when the quality of the product was superior?

Also, are these subscription increases primarily the result of the Network availability expanding into new markets or an increase in internet access? If so, that would no doubt likely result in higher year to year growth until most markets are reached.

The point is, without specifics, Network subscriber growth alone isn't proof of anything. It certainly doesn't disprove the theory that WWE has for years had horrible quality booking and writing and that it's resulting in RAW's ratings dropping.
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Old 10-29-2015, 01:22 PM   #36
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Proving what exactly?

That people want to watch WWE PPVs for $10/month instead of the former substantially higher rates but care less and less about RAW? Shocker. People want to pay less for something they used to have to pay more for. Even more so if they feel that the quality has declined. Also, if so, that's not good for TV licensing or TV sponsorship revenues for WWE.

Or maybe that people want to watch former WWE, WCW or ECW shows when the quality of the product was superior?

Also, are these subscription increases primarily the result of the Network availability expanding into new markets or an increase in internet access? If so, that would no doubt likely result in higher year to year growth until most markets are reached.

The point is, without specifics, Network subscriber growth alone isn't proof of anything. It certainly doesn't disprove the theory that WWE has for years had horrible quality booking and writing and that it's resulting in RAW's ratings dropping.
It shows the health of the business, which has been my over arcing point in this thread.

2013 revenues - $508M
2014 revenues - $543M
2015 revenues - $492M (with a quarter to go)

Yes ratings are down a bit, but it shows how small drops in ratings means very little to the overall picture, which is quite rosy at the moment.
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Old 10-29-2015, 03:29 PM   #37
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Quote:
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It shows the health of the business, which has been my over arcing point in this thread.

2013 revenues - $508M
2014 revenues - $543M
2015 revenues - $492M (with a quarter to go)

Yes ratings are down a bit, but it shows how small drops in ratings means very little to the overall picture, which is quite rosy at the moment.
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WWE released the updated Network numbers and it looks like it might never do any better than just break even for the WWE. 1.2 million overall so far but had a huge drop during the summer.



They need to average around 1.2-1.4 million to be at break even, 2 million to make some really good money, and 3-4 million gives them huge financial security.
womp womp
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Old 10-29-2015, 11:41 AM   #38
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Network subs have nothing to do with the Raw rating. Raw isn't shown live on the network.
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Old 10-29-2015, 12:47 PM   #39
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I've thought for a while that maybe the answer isn't dropping the whole first hour, but maybe a half-hour. Still would give them plenty of time each week to build stars and storylines who are actually being used, while reserving Main Event and Superstars for the low and mid-card guys who would otherwise not get much if any TV time.

I honestly wish the brands were still split, because SD! just can't get outcof RAW's shadow, and no matter how great it is or how terrible, it always just sort of feels like a clone of RAW which is a waste of 2 hours every Thursday night, and that's a shame.
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Old 10-29-2015, 01:26 PM   #40
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Quote:
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I've thought for a while that maybe the answer isn't dropping the whole first hour, but maybe a half-hour. Still would give them plenty of time each week to build stars and storylines who are actually being used, while reserving Main Event and Superstars for the low and mid-card guys who would otherwise not get much if any TV time.

I honestly wish the brands were still split, because SD! just can't get outcof RAW's shadow, and no matter how great it is or how terrible, it always just sort of feels like a clone of RAW which is a waste of 2 hours every Thursday night, and that's a shame.
Wouldn't make any sense

You would have to increase the rating enough in the remaining two hours to justify USA increasing TV rights fees to cover the loss of the rights fees of the third hour. I don't think the math works.
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