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Old 10-29-2015, 12:53 PM   #1
DAMN iNATOR
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I'd keep one World title, with the champ able to compete on both shows, put the IC title on SD!, US on RAW, let the Tag champs compete on both shows, bring back the Women's title and bring it back to RAW and put the Divas belt on SD! and split the women's division between shows and if necessary create a Women's tag division and belt and the Women's tag champs would be eligible to compete on both shows.
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Old 10-29-2015, 01:32 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAMN iNATOR View Post
I'd keep one World title, with the champ able to compete on both shows, put the IC title on SD!, US on RAW, let the Tag champs compete on both shows, bring back the Women's title and bring it back to RAW and put the Divas belt on SD! and split the women's division between shows and if necessary create a Women's tag division and belt and the Women's tag champs would be eligible to compete on both shows.
This idea doesn't work in practice.

One brand has to be the A brand for touring purposes (hit the A towns). If a guy gets over huge on the B show, he gets moved over to A show. So then what's the point of the split? You basically create a feeder system.

You also reduce the number of fight combinations on each show. There's only so many guys who should be on TV. If you split those guys by two, now you have fewer combinations of fights. You also are forced to put more guys on TV before they are ready.

I would rather have fewer guys booked on both shows each week. But even that is tough, because the network will want all the stars on each show to drive ratings.
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Old 10-29-2015, 01:00 PM   #3
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Both shows would benefit being cut by 1 hour IMO.
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Old 10-29-2015, 01:35 PM   #4
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LOL, well the show needs some sort of reduction in length. Run it from 8-10PM Mondays, and if the writing and in-ring action would actually improve enough, they may start drawing better numbers...I'm not saying they'll ever get back to 4.0+ rating territory, but maybe they'd be able to bring in between 3.7-3.9ish. CLEARLY 3 hours was a bad move from the start. Vince took something that wasn't broken, length-wise, tried to fix it, and now years later, go figure, IT'S BROKEN.
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Old 10-29-2015, 02:11 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by DAMN iNATOR View Post
LOL, well the show needs some sort of reduction in length. Run it from 8-10PM Mondays, and if the writing and in-ring action would actually improve enough, they may start drawing better numbers...I'm not saying they'll ever get back to 4.0+ rating territory, but maybe they'd be able to bring in between 3.7-3.9ish. CLEARLY 3 hours was a bad move from the start. Vince took something that wasn't broken, length-wise, tried to fix it, and now years later, go figure, IT'S BROKEN.
Its been a huge win money wise.
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Old 10-29-2015, 04:15 PM   #6
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It sounds like they are not quite breaking even.

Can you please show me their financial statements?
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Old 10-29-2015, 04:23 PM   #7
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It sounds like they are not quite breaking even.

Can you please show me their financial statements?
Where are you getting that from?

Look at the front page.
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Old 10-29-2015, 04:38 PM   #8
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Ironically based on the title of this thread they are on pace for their best year bottom line wise since 2012.
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Old 10-29-2015, 04:42 PM   #9
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That doesn't change the fact that the ratings are low. They made a good profit this year but not because of eyeballs on the screen.

One of the big reason for their profits was due to their reality shows.
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Old 10-29-2015, 04:58 PM   #10
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There are a lot of factors.

But the bottom line is it doesnt matter when the overall business has never been healthier.
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Old 10-29-2015, 08:27 PM   #11
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I'd laugh if Vince shut down RAW at the end of its contract, and just started producing reality television full-time. Wait, no I wouldn't...
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Old 10-29-2015, 08:32 PM   #12
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I think the best thing for the WWE Network is that it still hasn't launched in some major markets.

I don't think anyone was arguing about overall revenue intake other than CyNick. I'm fairly certain this was about less people watching RAW and whether or not that was connected to a lifeless and unambitious product.

How do WWE's expenses come out next to this revenue? What are their actual profits like? And why did their stock drop today?
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Old 10-29-2015, 11:59 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I think the best thing for the WWE Network is that it still hasn't launched in some major markets.

I don't think anyone was arguing about overall revenue intake other than CyNick. I'm fairly certain this was about less people watching RAW and whether or not that was connected to a lifeless and unambitious product.

How do WWE's expenses come out next to this revenue? What are their actual profits like? And why did their stock drop today?
This.

CyNick just takes irrelevant news like an increase in Network subscriber numbers and uses that to leap to the conclusion that the ratings don't matter because the network numbers increased and so the product isn't bad and shouldn't be criticized.

He completely ignores the fact that revenues and subscriber numbers may be up but doesn't mention what WWE's expenses are, nor the fact that subscriber numbers fell almost 10% this summer after Mania.

Nevermind the fact that WWE also wasn't able to get the TV rights deals for RAW and Smackdown that they were expecting. Last year they were expecting and promising investors at least a 100% increase in TV rights fees with NBC Universal and only managed to get a 70% increase after NBC Universal initially rejected WWE's original offer.

In addition, he doesn't address the fact that with the release of the earnings report, etc., WWE's stock fell over 12% today and has been somewhat consistently pretty low over the past 5 years with the exception of a few spikes, the greatest being the spike for the launch of the network.

Investors don't like a poor primary product, especially during a period of transition in business models. For a company that can't maintain or increase the quality of its primary product and are losing regular viewers, how is it going to successfuly handle a transition in business model?
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:48 AM   #14
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I still think the WWE left a lot of money on the table by having all their PPVs included under the initial Network umbrella. I understand them taking it in-house, but a PPV is worth more than $9.99. EVOLVE charges more for its PPVs. They needed some original programming for the Network, and the PPVs probably got a larger instant sign-up, but it feels now like there is no going back.
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Old 10-30-2015, 08:33 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I still think the WWE left a lot of money on the table by having all their PPVs included under the initial Network umbrella. I understand them taking it in-house, but a PPV is worth more than $9.99. EVOLVE charges more for its PPVs. They needed some original programming for the Network, and the PPVs probably got a larger instant sign-up, but it feels now like there is no going back.
They certainly can't go back. You start charging more for PPVs and people will be pissed off.

I've thought maybe they could explore doing something with charging more for people who sign up in March (to take advantage of the one-month sign ups just for Mania) but people would see right through that too.
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Old 10-30-2015, 08:54 AM   #16
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Ugh

First, I don't recall saying TV ratings don't matter at all. What I have been saying is that the ratings are not the be all and end all for the business. Ratings are down across many forms of entertainment. USAs overall numbers are falling faster than WWEs. As I've tried to help you guys understand, the landscape of media and entertainment had changed. WWE has invested time and money into the digital side of things, which has been extremely successful to date. It may have come at the expense of some TV viewers, but that's just how the younger generation consumes entertainment these days. You evolve or you perish. But when the TV universe is shrinking by the day, you can still increase your rights fees (70% increase is amazing) and have ratings decline. Let's see what the next TV deal brings them. I bet it will be another massive increase.

Second, the network play was designed to increase revenues and eventually overall profits. You can't set up something like The Network and pay $0 in expenses. This isn't some Mom and Pop operation. In my opinion Wrestlemania specifically had to be included in order to make The Network appeal to more people. If any of you guys knew how to read a financial document you would look at revenues generated for past Manias and notice that WWE is now generating those revenues in each quarter. I don't believe you get much more than 100k subs if the events formerly known as PPVs were not included in the deal.

Third, if you look at OIBDA they will finish up with one of their better years and next year could be their best ever. So if you guys and dopey dirt sheet writers who are still stuck in 1998 living off weekly cable ratings think that's a bad year, hey man you do you.
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Old 10-30-2015, 08:59 AM   #17
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Quote:
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They certainly can't go back. You start charging more for PPVs and people will be pissed off.

I've thought maybe they could explore doing something with charging more for people who sign up in March (to take advantage of the one-month sign ups just for Mania) but people would see right through that too.
Its much harder to promote that way. It's no different than Netflix. You might be a fan of House of Cards. In theory you could wait for the new season of HOC, binge watch and cancel your sub. Netflix is fine with that because they assume you will sample other stuff and stick around. Some people will just sign up for one month in the year, but in the end those people are the minority.

Same for WWE. They have to be able to continue to provide unique content that makes the vast majority of users want to stick around. But you will always have a group of people who now just pay $10 for Mania and leave. That's why there should always be a post Mania dip in subs. But overall Mania draws in a wider audience, and x percent of those people will stick around and pay $10 for 12 months.
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Old 10-30-2015, 09:05 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I still think the WWE left a lot of money on the table by having all their PPVs included under the initial Network umbrella. I understand them taking it in-house, but a PPV is worth more than $9.99. EVOLVE charges more for its PPVs. They needed some original programming for the Network, and the PPVs probably got a larger instant sign-up, but it feels now like there is no going back.
The average WWE PPV was struggling when they decided on The Network. I personally believe sports entertainment PPVs was a dying business. It's tough to get fans to pay $60 a month to see a similar product as you see for free on TV every week. $10? Now that's a different story. On top of that from a revenue standpoint WWE wasn't even seeing half of that $60. So they are charging their fans more than $30 per month to make another company rich. To me it was a simple decision, and the numbers are starting to demonstrate how good of an idea it was.

The key will be gaining traction is some of these new markets in Asia. If they can be successful there, there will be absolutely no doubt this was a home run idea.
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Old 10-30-2015, 02:50 AM   #19
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Apparently $10.4 million was the profit margin for this quarter. They just spent 10% of that on Alberto Del Rio.
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Old 10-30-2015, 09:00 AM   #20
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Quote:
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Apparently $10.4 million was the profit margin for this quarter. They just spent 10% of that on Alberto Del Rio.
In Noid's company salaries come out of profits.

Didn't get on the honour roll at your business school I see.
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Old 11-01-2015, 05:51 AM   #21
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In Noid's company salaries come out of profits.

Didn't get on the honour roll at your business school I see.
10% of $10.4 million is $1.04 million. Del Rio is getting paid $1.45. That's actually more than 10%. My bad.
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Old 11-02-2015, 10:39 AM   #22
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Quote:
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10% of $10.4 million is $1.04 million. Del Rio is getting paid $1.45. That's actually more than 10%. My bad.
Lol you completely missed my point. Don't worry about it.
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Old 11-03-2015, 10:52 AM   #23
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Lol you completely missed my point. Don't worry about it.
No, you completely missed mine, but don't worry about it.
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Old 10-30-2015, 09:25 AM   #24
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Old 10-30-2015, 10:01 AM   #25
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Man I miss the 80's When it was just fun watching it, and not over analyzing every little detail
I agree. I got pulled into the swamp with the negative world order.

I prefer to just discuss the on screen product. But I'm also a business geek.
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Old 10-30-2015, 12:09 PM   #26
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I guess the question I have based on what I've read in this thread would be, is Vince a great businessman (he absolutely is) and does his ability as a businessman impact profit more than the quality of the product. The answer I'd hope we all agree is yes.

To suggest there are few issues with the product because profits are good is naive. Personally I no longer record Raw and I've cancelled my network subscription but catch highlights on wwe.com and YouTube because I don't enjoy the product as much anymore. There is no way to measure the people that consume content the same way as me, so it's a pointless conversation.

The simple facts are the business is healthy but the product can (and should) improve. The rapid growth of NXT is testemant to what can be achieved in a short space of time when production is good.
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Old 10-30-2015, 12:16 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by broverboard View Post
I guess the question I have based on what I've read in this thread would be, is Vince a great businessman (he absolutely is) and does his ability as a businessman impact profit more than the quality of the product. The answer I'd hope we all agree is yes.

To suggest there are few issues with the product because profits are good is naive. Personally I no longer record Raw and I've cancelled my network subscription but catch highlights on wwe.com and YouTube because I don't enjoy the product as much anymore. There is no way to measure the people that consume content the same way as me, so it's a pointless conversation.

The simple facts are the business is healthy but the product can (and should) improve. The rapid growth of NXT is testemant to what can be achieved in a short space of time when production is good.
NXT to me proves another point. It proves that the same people who have authority on calling shots for the main roster can create a wrestling show that appeals to the IWC. The problem is RAW is meant to and needs to appeal to more than just a small percentage of total wrestling fans. People here dont grasp that difference and think everything should just appeal to them.
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:14 PM   #28
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NXT to me proves another point. It proves that the same people who have authority on calling shots for the main roster can create a wrestling show that appeals to the IWC. The problem is RAW is meant to and needs to appeal to more than just a small percentage of total wrestling fans. People here dont grasp that difference and think everything should just appeal to them.
I think that people here do grasp that, and I don't think it's fair to suggest otherwise. Granted I've not been here long and I can only go by what I've read in recent discussions.

You are absolutely right when you said "The problem is RAW is meant to and needs to appeal to more than just a small percentage of total wrestling fans" and likewise, RAW needs to appeal to more than a group of kids and that is the point it seems people are trying to get across. I get the impression there is a lack of identity behind the show. Either you make the show a kids show and change the time it's broadcast (and the products that you're sponsored by) or accept the show is aired at a time when most kids are in bed so your audience is predominantely older and cater for them. A balance needs to be found and I think people will continue to switch off until someone works out what that balance looks like.
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:42 PM   #29
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See this is where I think there is a disconnect. I don't think the product today is all that different than the product from the heyday. The main difference is you don't see angles with Asian men trying to cut off a man's penis.

The product is still wildly successful on TV. Most weeks its the second most watched show on cable on Monday nights. You don't draw that number by just appealing to 10 year olds. Especially when your show runs till 11PM at night. And they continue to draw good numbers from the key demo.

The fallacy of this thread is that the product is bad. Yes there has been a ratings dip. But it's not isolated to WWE. All forms of entertainment have felt it, and will confine to as viewing habits shift away from traditional TV. The great thing for WWE is they have a track record of maintaining viewers and with TV audiences shrinking, companies like USA will see properties like WWE even more valuable. And even if the TV business collapses, and everything shifts to a Netflix type model, WWE is well on their way to having a strong foothold there.
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Old 11-02-2015, 10:11 AM   #30
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I think WWE should have created 2 WWE Network plans. $9.99 for regular streaming w/o PPVs and $12.99 for PPVs included.

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Originally Posted by broverboard View Post
I no longer record Raw and I've cancelled my network subscription but catch highlights on wwe.com and YouTube because I don't enjoy the product as much anymore. There is no way to measure the people that consume content the same way as me, so it's a pointless conversation.
CyNick will catch you in that lie shortly
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Old 11-02-2015, 10:13 AM   #31
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I think WWE should have created 2 WWE Network plans. $9.99 for regular streaming w/o PPVs and $12.99 for PPVs included.
SOMEONE is probably going to tell me that 12.99 is a bad idea because its over the 10 dollar mark etc.
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Old 11-02-2015, 10:41 AM   #32
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SOMEONE is probably going to tell me that 12.99 is a bad idea because its over the 10 dollar mark etc.
Right now they don't want to have multiple price points. It's easier to be able to advertise "$9.99"

At some point I'm sure they will raise prices, but I think the business model works better at one price point for the whole thing.
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Old 11-01-2015, 05:53 AM   #33
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broverboard has got a great future.
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Old 11-02-2015, 10:57 AM   #34
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I think they should have started with multi price points.
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Old 11-02-2015, 01:59 PM   #35
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No way should they have multiple price points that regulate how much of the content you can view. Look at Netflix for example. The multiple price points govern how many devices can stream simultaneously and what not; they don't lock out content based on which type of account you have. And considering they are the gold standard of streaming services I'd imagine their approach is probably the one to go with, at least for the time being.

I just don't see that many people being interested in WWE Network without the PPV option. If they added a second tier at 12.99 or whatever it would be that included the PPVs while the standard 9.99 did not.....then I feel you'd lose subscribers and that everyone would feel like it is a scam just to raise rates while giving the appearance of a choice.
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Old 11-02-2015, 02:30 PM   #36
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I just don't see that many people being interested in WWE Network without the PPV option. If they added a second tier at 12.99 or whatever it would be that included the PPVs while the standard 9.99 did not.....then I feel you'd lose subscribers and that everyone would feel like it is a scam just to raise rates while giving the appearance of a choice.
There would be some sort of drop of if initially it was $12.99 for PPVs instead of $9.99. But I think the extra $3 would make up for the low percentage of people who wouldn't subscribe.
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Old 11-02-2015, 02:30 PM   #37
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There would be some sort of drop of if initially it was $12.99 for PPVs instead of $9.99. But I think the extra $3 would make up for the low percentage of people who wouldn't subscribe.
I have no evidence for my claims, BTW
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Old 11-12-2015, 08:59 AM   #38
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Third hour this week fell below 3 millions viewers.

Nothing wrong, guys.




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Old 11-12-2015, 07:02 PM   #39
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Never good to see a big decline, but I'm sure the fact that it was taped had an impact. I usually dont like reading RAW spoilers when they are overseas, but in this case I was eager to get them because I wanted to see how the tournament was laid out. Of course I'm just one person.

the first hour was higher than last week, and when you take the average its not really a huge decline. And at the end of the day, even the third hour being so low, that hour was still only behind two shows in terms of viewership on Cable on Monday.

MNF was down week over week by 1 million viewers. Which means RAW's overall viewership declined by about 2% WoW and MNF viewership was down 8% WoW.

Like I said, not great to go down, and maybe 3 million is some kind of panic number, but looks like people were just tuning TV out this week.
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Old 11-12-2015, 08:50 PM   #40
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The Monday Night Football numbers were down because the matchup was the drizzling shits...

Raw had the WWE champion for the past 7 months being stripped of the title and the "intrigue" of a tournament for a new champion beginning.

But it was just because people decided to not watch TV. Yes. It was TV's fault. Because faith in McMahon.
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